Tight End Stats Through 5 games

[quinnearlysghost88]

  On 10/12/2023 at 4:21 PM, Numark3 said:

Is it a goal to have TE production?  For the most part, the offense is humming and the TEs are a part of it.  What is the issue or your point?

 

Hey Dorsey, we want more TE production:

 

dorsey: Why?

 

idk

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Jets game is a good example. Pass yards were hard to come by and our TEs only produced 25 and 26 yds on 7 total catches. They both only had one catch in the entire second half. 
 

TEs should be exposing mismatches and give the qb an outlet to throw. When they’re not getting open, you’re forcing Josh to make tough short throws against a good jets pass D. 

[JerseyBills]

  On 10/13/2023 at 1:35 AM, quinnearlysghost88 said:

Jets game is a good example. Pass yards were hard to come by and our TEs only produced 25 and 26 yds on 7 total catches. They both only had one catch in the entire second half. 
 

TEs should be exposing mismatches and give the qb an outlet to throw. When they’re not getting open, you’re forcing Josh to make tough short throws against a good jets pass D. 

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Ya i agree. Feel like they're still trying to find their identity with them personnel groupings.  

Confident they will

[Chaos]

Preseason Fans/ Media: sugar rush Josh has to focus on short quick passes 

 

Season.  : Allen focuses on short passes with record setting completion percentages

 

Fans : OMG yards per catch production is down

As best as I can determine there are spme

fans who anything short of 100 Percent completion rates and league leading YPA totals means “something is off”

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Chaos

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

  On 10/12/2023 at 7:10 PM, GoBills808 said:

He's a career 64% catch guy on receptions/target tho

 

That's on the low end of where you'd like your TE to be

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I do find him to be a plus blocker, and he brings a physicality that our offense needs at times.  Him, Kincaid, Murray, and Harris are really there to bring more of a physical element to our attack. The overall team softness was something that needed to be upgraded between offensive line, pass catchers, and backs.  I think he also offers some of the red zone athleticism you want in a TE but I agree I probably wouldn't build my offense around him.

[SoonerBillsFan]

  On 10/12/2023 at 4:25 PM, Simon said:

 

If they weren't spending half the game covering the RT, they would be a much more dynamic part of the offense.

As it is, the Bills are spending a significant percentage of their passing downs playing 10 vs 11.

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Yes and no.  Leave Knox to help brown/ run short routes. use Kincaid as the weapon he is designed to be.

 

We can have both.  

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by SoonerBillsFan

[That's No Moon]

  On 10/12/2023 at 4:32 PM, starrymessenger said:

If anyone thinks Kincaid would be unable to do what LaPorta has done in Detroit they are mistaken. 

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I think that's kind of the point. Detroit has a clue how to use their TE. We don't know how to use Knox, and then we spent a first round pick to add another TE to dump the ball to in the flat. It's tremendously terrible resource management to spend the money they spend on Knox and then the draft choice they spent in Kincaid to use them in a way that could be accomplished by much cheaper players. 

[K D]

If you want to see how to use a TE watch the Chiefs. Good lord, Kelce is wide open every play. He walks into the middle of the field in a zone and nobody covers him. Unreal

[That's No Moon]

  On 10/12/2023 at 6:58 PM, Simon said:

 

I think when they were building in the offseason they may have counted on Spencer Brown being able to do more than he is capable of.

Then when the bullets started flying, they found themselves with little choice but to play things they way that they are now.

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This is weak. Both TEs aren't helping Brown on any play and it's rare that one of them is doing more than chip. That's normal TE behavior and it doesn't preclude them from running routes more elaborate than standing still by the sideline 3 yards up field.

 

Just spitballing, if you're having trouble containing the left DE and you are often using a TE to help, a TE screen is a viable option that takes advantage of your players' athletic ability and also serves to slow down future pass rush. We don't do that. 

[PBF81]

  On 10/12/2023 at 4:29 PM, Process said:

The production isn't really the issue. Good productive TEs are hard to find. 

 

The issue is we are paying an average, low impact player in Knox $13M/yr. 

 

That money put towards a solid #2 WR or RT would have much bigger impact on this offense. 

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Add to that, why did we expend a 1st-round pick on a player that isn't even being put in a role in which he can put up performance commensurate with that pick.

 

It's disappointing to be sure.  

 

There seems to be a huge ongoing disconnect between Beane & McD in the utilization of our drafted players.  

 

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

  On 10/12/2023 at 4:32 PM, starrymessenger said:

If anyone thinks Kincaid would be unable to do what LaPorta has done in Detroit they are mistaken. 

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Sadly mistaken if I may

[PBF81]

  On 10/12/2023 at 5:04 PM, Kaenon said:

Our offense is performing the same as it has the last 4 seasons.

Idk why anyone thinks any other season will be different.

Allen to Diggs will be incredible, Gabe will flash with 800 yards and 7 TDs, 3rd and 4th guys will chip in. TEs won't amass yards and should finish with 5 or 6 TDs, and our running game by and large will struggle by committee.

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Right now or TEs (Kinaid/Knox) are placing for about 650 yards and 3 TDs between 'em.

 

Davis should have 800/7 by the bye week, all he's gotta do is average 54 YPG and a TD every other game.  

 

Points wise or offense is performing better than it ever has.  But it's the games against the playoff tells that matter most.  

 

That's not to say it cannot be better, and it can be.  

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by PBF81

[BearNorth]

If Kincaid [concussion] is unable to play on Sunday night, do we see three wide [from among Sherfield, Harty and Shakir] and trust Brown [who is currently the #2 graded Bills lineman behind Dawkins] to anchor the right side.

[PBF81]

  On 10/12/2023 at 5:27 PM, JayBaller10 said:

I’m sure Beane envisioned Kincaid being more of a weapon but it’s still early. 

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I'm sure everyone did.  Which begs questions. 

 

There's an ongoing disconnect between Beane & McD.  

 

 

[PBF81]

  On 10/12/2023 at 5:32 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well when you are running 12 personnel as much as we are and then not using your TE's as weapons then its a problem.  If we are running our TE's for 7 ypc, any JAG off the street TE can manage that.  We have a ton of money in Knox and traded up for Kincaid to produce what any TE off the street could do.  Thats a problem.

 

When you are taking guys like Sherfield and Harty off the field to put 2 TE's out there and then just dumping off passes to them that you could do with any RB or TE, that is a problem.

 

We drafted...traded up mind you...Kincaid to pair with Knox to create mismatches all over the field and to take adantage of those and put pressure on the D at all 3 levels.  We aren't doing that.

 

Dorsey NEEDS to find a way to use the 12 personnel productively or he needs to stop running it.  Its that simple for me.  And I am not confident he will...he sucked at incorporating Knox in last year despite our desperate need for another weapon for Josh and Knox coming off a season with 9 TD's despite modest targets for a TE.  Now we are seeing the same lack of use of the TE's effectively this year.  

 

Its a problem and it starts with Dorsey.

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Great post.

 

I would however argue that it starts with McD.

 

He's the one that selected Dorsey, and he apparently has nothing to assist and guide Dorsey with, ... add a head coach.  

 

If the offense is under achieving as it is, then it's up to the head coach to make the appropriate corrective action, regardless of what it is.  

 

IMO McD's simply all but incapable of doing that.

 

Considering that our playoff hopes and hopes for a Championship revolver around Allen & the O, that's a terminal disconnect.  

 

 

  On 10/12/2023 at 6:21 PM, 716 said:

All the hate for Dorsey and the lack of TE production, but I don't recall very much TE success with Daboll, or forever for that matter in Buffalo. Am I wrong?

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All those thinking that Daboll was anything special are wrong. 

 

 

[JerseyBills]

  On 10/12/2023 at 5:31 PM, SWATeam said:

I'm getting visions of last year.  We went all-in on pass catching RB's- tried to sign McKissic, signed Duke Johnson, drafted Cook, traded for Hines.  We were even rumored to be in on trading for McCaffery.  All of this to never throw to the backs.

 

Now this year it's all about the TE.  Knox has a nice contract and we draft a first round TE to go along with him.  All this talk of 12 personnel and the mismatches it will produce.   Again, all to never throw to the TE's.

 

There seems to be a major disconnect between player acquisition and player usage-especially on offense.  You would think that Dorsey would be communicating with Beane on the groceries to buy.

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I mean Beane trusted his board, was shocked we had a chance to get an offensive weapon of his caliber so late. 

 

Lets see how this plays out. He's a rookie 5 games in. Give it another month and I think Knox Kincaid will have much more production. Knox started slow last year

[DCofNC]

  On 10/12/2023 at 5:32 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well when you are running 12 personnel as much as we are and then not using your TE's as weapons then its a problem.  If we are running our TE's for 7 ypc, any JAG off the street TE can manage that.  We have a ton of money in Knox and traded up for Kincaid to produce what any TE off the street could do.  Thats a problem.

 

When you are taking guys like Sherfield and Harty off the field to put 2 TE's out there and then just dumping off passes to them that you could do with any RB or TE, that is a problem.

 

We drafted...traded up mind you...Kincaid to pair with Knox to create mismatches all over the field and to take adantage of those and put pressure on the D at all 3 levels.  We aren't doing that.

 

Dorsey NEEDS to find a way to use the 12 personnel productively or he needs to stop running it.  Its that simple for me.  And I am not confident he will...he sucked at incorporating Knox in last year despite our desperate need for another weapon for Josh and Knox coming off a season with 9 TD's despite modest targets for a TE.  Now we are seeing the same lack of use of the TE's effectively this year.  

 

Its a problem and it starts with Dorsey.

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I have to agree.  Put simply, it seems like the GM and the coaches have never been on the same page here.  I actually feel that’s more of a problem with the structure of power in the organization.  The GM SHOULD have the power to fire the coach, because he doesn’t, they run on parallel tracks, never forced to be accountable to the other.  
 

How many times have we seen the GM draft/sign players and the coaches refuse to use them to their strengths or at all?   It’s insane.  Easy ones, Elam, not a scheme fit. AJE, power rusher, try to make him a speed guy, when his lack of speed was the reason he fell in the draft.  Now I’ll give it to them, after 3 years, he’s had a productive game, so MAYBE that one will be ok.  To follow that with Drafting 2 DEs in a row, to have one be inactive all year, later shipped out for a bag of chips…  Cook, pass catcher that never gets thrown to, Kincaid, Knox, all big moves for street FA production.  It makes NO sense. 

[PBF81]

  On 10/12/2023 at 7:08 PM, JJGauna said:

Really hard to compare LaPorta and Kincaid. LaPorta has had 2 great games, one with Montgomery out, one with St. Brown out, their top two playmakers.

 

Kincaid on the other hand has been buried behind Diggs and Davis, and rightfully so.

 

Kincaid is an investment in the future for when Diggs and Davis are gone.

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Kincaid may not even be here when Diggs & Davis are gone.   

 

He's not going to be happy long term if this continues.  Unless we win a Lombardi.  

 

Them everyone will be happy.  LOL

 

 

[PBF81]

  On 10/12/2023 at 9:37 PM, finn said:

Knox having to help Brown on so many plays is part of the problem, as many posters have pointed out. But it's not clear why Dorsey isn't running Kincaid deeper. 

 

Beane has to be frustrated. He gives Dorsey Hines (who isn't cheap), and Dorsey doesn't use him. Then he drafts Kincaid in the first round, and Dorsey doesn't use him, either, at least not well. 

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I wouldn't pin it all Dorsey.  

 

Having a great coach with his hands, apparently, tied in the matter, is problematic.  

 

I have no idea why McD perpetually gets a pass at the mismanagement of the most relevant piece of the team.  

 

Apparently the whole "culture" thing outweighs the performance aspect.  

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

  On 10/13/2023 at 2:32 PM, SUNY_amherst said:

Kincaid was a dumb draft pick

 

giving Knox that big contract was dumber though

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Maybe they were trying to give Dorsey a hint. If so, he clearly didn’t get it. 😉

[PBF81]

  On 10/13/2023 at 1:35 AM, quinnearlysghost88 said:

Jets game is a good example. Pass yards were hard to come by and our TEs only produced 25 and 26 yds on 7 total catches. They both only had one catch in the entire second half. 
 

TEs should be exposing mismatches and give the qb an outlet to throw. When they’re not getting open, you’re forcing Josh to make tough short throws against a good jets pass D. 

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Which raises a great point, between them they have only 9 1st-Downs on the season, not even 2/game.  

 

Harty & Murray have 9 in contrast.  

 

Here's another thing, in Beasley's two best seasons her he averaged nearly 12 YPR.  Kincaid/Davis aren't even averaging 7 YPR.