Israel and the Slaughter in Gaza

[aristocrat]

19 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

It's like killing an idea. Not something you can just do 

Name the ideas hamas has please. As many as you can 

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, JDHillFan said:

There’s been no shortage of sh*t on his watch. I’m glad you agree. 

Nobody is paying any mind to Joe because they know the staff and beauracracy  surrounding him are running the administration, and by default domestic and foriegn policy. 

The Israeli's ignore him, the Palestinian's have no faith in him, the Houthi's laugh at him, the Iranians are unafraid. 

Only some very slow to figure it out self-described liberal geniuses believe he's in charge.

[Andy1]

An immediate cease fire on both sides should happen immediately after the release of all Israeli hostages. The path to peace is obvious. Netanyahu doesn’t care what Biden thinks. He would rather see Trump be elected in November.  Politics in America is not going to influence military decisions during war for Israel. Hamas seems happy to sacrifice the lives of their friends and families for their cause. That has been their plan. The war will end sooner or later, the timing is up to Hamas. 
 

What happens after the war is the big unknown. 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[B-Man]

1 hour ago, sherpa said:

 

Madam Vice President, there was a ceasefire.

Hamas broke it, slaughtering women and unborn babies.

 

Get rid of Hamas, then a ceasefire, but she it too stupid to understand that.

 

 

 

Bizzarro World.

 

VP Harris to meet Israeli war cabinet member Monday

NewsNation

https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/war-in-israel/harris-israeli-war-cabinet/#:~:text=U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris,flow of aid to Gaza.

 

 

 

 

.

[ComradeKayAdams]

On 3/1/2024 at 1:57 PM, Tiberius said:

It's very much turning into a genocide 

 

It just is 

 

Here ya go, Tibs!

 

The United Nations’ definition of genocide: “Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group.

2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.

3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.

4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.

5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

 

The definition of ethnic cleansing: “The systematic and forced removal of an ethnic, religious, or racial group from a given area, with the intent of making that area ethnically homogeneous.”

 

The definition of collective punishment: “A punishment imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group.”

 

Other than clause #5 in the genocide criteria, I could argue that Israel is guilty of all of the above. The ICJ has already called the genocide accusation “plausible.” Here is my own list of reasons why I would advance the charge from “plausible” to “probable” (please feel free to edit or add):

 

1. A completely unacceptable civilian casualty ratio, by historical war standards, of 9.9:1 (this is a 90.8% civilian casualty percentage…34,570 civilian deaths to 3,496 combatant deaths…source: Euro-Med HRM, Feb 23).

2. Woefully inadequate actions taken to prevent famine in Gaza.

3. Two million displaced Gazans, with no apparent plans provided or promises given for returning to their homes.

4. Numerous instances of documented and suspected war crimes, such as the most recent IDF convoy slaughter in northern Gaza.

5. Incendiary and dehumanizing rhetoric from far-right government leaders that indicate genocidal intent.

6. Official Israeli government rejection of any future talks for two-state or one-state solutions.

7. Hostage rescue not appearing to be a high priority, as many Israeli citizen protestors have argued and as the appearance of indiscriminate bombing in Jabalia, Gaza City, and Khan Younis suggests.

8. No articulation of what a “victory” over Hamas would look like, along with a distinct lack of awareness in how their October 7 retribution will multiply manyfold a new generation of Hamas-like terrorists.

9. Evidence of cultural erasure with hundreds of mosques, schools, cemeteries, and heritage sites destroyed.

10. Innumerable attempts to obfuscate and conceal war crimes via bureaucratic lying (UNRWA worker allegations, etc.), preventions of media access inside Gaza, and false propaganda campaigns (Anat Schwartz, etc.)…not to mention attacks on 173 press headquarters and the deaths of 130+ journalists.

11. Guilt by historical context: Zionism’s ideological roots in settler colonialism and the ensuing ethnostate practices of apartheid, violent acts of ethnic cleansing such as the 1948 Nakba, repeatedly broken promises during negotiations with Palestinians, and land seizures like after the 1967 Six-Day War or like the illegal West Bank settlements which are intended to break up Palestinian land contiguity.

12. Guilt by association: Israel existing as a critical Middle Eastern proxy state for an imperialistic sugar daddy, the American Empire…and we Americans are responsible for a litany of our own international ethics violations (disastrous regime-change wars, organized coups, drone strikes, and general labor/resource exploitation throughout the Middle East and the Americas…dating back to the Monroe Doctrine, really).

13. An imminent Rafah invasion that will likely only strengthen the charges against Israel.

 

Note that some of the aforementioned reasons are obviously not crimes, but they are meant to establish INTENT, which is apparently a very critical component of ICJ genocide charges.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Here ya go, Tibs!

 

The United Nations’ definition of genocide: “Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group.

2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.

3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.

4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.

5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

 

The definition of ethnic cleansing: “The systematic and forced removal of an ethnic, religious, or racial group from a given area, with the intent of making that area ethnically homogeneous.”

 

The definition of collective punishment: “A punishment imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group.”

 

Other than clause #5 in the genocide criteria, I could argue that Israel is guilty of all of the above. The ICJ has already called the genocide accusation “plausible.” Here is my own list of reasons why I would advance the charge from “plausible” to “probable” (please feel free to edit or add):

 

1. A completely unacceptable civilian casualty ratio, by historical war standards, of 9.9:1 (this is a 90.8% civilian casualty percentage…34,570 civilian deaths to 3,496 combatant deaths…source: Euro-Med HRM, Feb 23).

2. Woefully inadequate actions taken to prevent famine in Gaza.

3. Two million displaced Gazans, with no apparent plans provided or promises given for returning to their homes.

4. Numerous instances of documented and suspected war crimes, such as the most recent IDF convoy slaughter in northern Gaza.

5. Incendiary and dehumanizing rhetoric from far-right government leaders that indicate genocidal intent.

6. Official Israeli government rejection of any future talks for two-state or one-state solutions.

7. Hostage rescue not appearing to be a high priority, as many Israeli citizen protestors have argued and as the appearance of indiscriminate bombing in Jabalia, Gaza City, and Khan Younis suggests.

8. No articulation of what a “victory” over Hamas would look like, along with a distinct lack of awareness in how their October 7 retribution will multiply manyfold a new generation of Hamas-like terrorists.

9. Evidence of cultural erasure with hundreds of mosques, schools, cemeteries, and heritage sites destroyed.

10. Innumerable attempts to obfuscate and conceal war crimes via bureaucratic lying (UNRWA worker allegations, etc.), preventions of media access inside Gaza, and false propaganda campaigns (Anat Schwartz, etc.)…not to mention attacks on 173 press headquarters and the deaths of 130+ journalists.

11. Guilt by historical context: Zionism’s ideological roots in settler colonialism and the ensuing ethnostate practices of apartheid, violent acts of ethnic cleansing such as the 1948 Nakba, repeatedly broken promises during negotiations with Palestinians, and land seizures like after the 1967 Six-Day War or like the illegal West Bank settlements which are intended to break up Palestinian land contiguity.

12. Guilt by association: Israel existing as a critical Middle Eastern proxy state for an imperialistic sugar daddy, the American Empire…and we Americans are responsible for a litany of our own international ethics violations (disastrous regime-change wars, organized coups, drone strikes, and general labor/resource exploitation throughout the Middle East and the Americas…dating back to the Monroe Doctrine, really).

13. An imminent Rafah invasion that will likely only strengthen the charges against Israel.

 

Note that some of the aforementioned reasons are obviously not crimes, but they are meant to establish INTENT, which is apparently a very critical component of ICJ genocide charges.

 

Should have thought twice about October 7th, then.  But people often can't see beyond their noses.

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Here ya go, Tibs!

 

The United Nations’ definition of genocide: “Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group.

2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.

3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.

4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.

5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

 

The definition of ethnic cleansing: “The systematic and forced removal of an ethnic, religious, or racial group from a given area, with the intent of making that area ethnically homogeneous.”

 

The definition of collective punishment: “A punishment imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group.”

 

Other than clause #5 in the genocide criteria, I could argue that Israel is guilty of all of the above. The ICJ has already called the genocide accusation “plausible.” Here is my own list of reasons why I would advance the charge from “plausible” to “probable” (please feel free to edit or add):

 

1. A completely unacceptable civilian casualty ratio, by historical war standards, of 9.9:1 (this is a 90.8% civilian casualty percentage…34,570 civilian deaths to 3,496 combatant deaths…source: Euro-Med HRM, Feb 23).

2. Woefully inadequate actions taken to prevent famine in Gaza.

3. Two million displaced Gazans, with no apparent plans provided or promises given for returning to their homes.

4. Numerous instances of documented and suspected war crimes, such as the most recent IDF convoy slaughter in northern Gaza.

5. Incendiary and dehumanizing rhetoric from far-right government leaders that indicate genocidal intent.

6. Official Israeli government rejection of any future talks for two-state or one-state solutions.

7. Hostage rescue not appearing to be a high priority, as many Israeli citizen protestors have argued and as the appearance of indiscriminate bombing in Jabalia, Gaza City, and Khan Younis suggests.

8. No articulation of what a “victory” over Hamas would look like, along with a distinct lack of awareness in how their October 7 retribution will multiply manyfold a new generation of Hamas-like terrorists.

9. Evidence of cultural erasure with hundreds of mosques, schools, cemeteries, and heritage sites destroyed.

10. Innumerable attempts to obfuscate and conceal war crimes via bureaucratic lying (UNRWA worker allegations, etc.), preventions of media access inside Gaza, and false propaganda campaigns (Anat Schwartz, etc.)…not to mention attacks on 173 press headquarters and the deaths of 130+ journalists.

11. Guilt by historical context: Zionism’s ideological roots in settler colonialism and the ensuing ethnostate practices of apartheid, violent acts of ethnic cleansing such as the 1948 Nakba, repeatedly broken promises during negotiations with Palestinians, and land seizures like after the 1967 Six-Day War or like the illegal West Bank settlements which are intended to break up Palestinian land contiguity.

12. Guilt by association: Israel existing as a critical Middle Eastern proxy state for an imperialistic sugar daddy, the American Empire…and we Americans are responsible for a litany of our own international ethics violations (disastrous regime-change wars, organized coups, drone strikes, and general labor/resource exploitation throughout the Middle East and the Americas…dating back to the Monroe Doctrine, really).

13. An imminent Rafah invasion that will likely only strengthen the charges against Israel.

 

Note that some of the aforementioned reasons are obviously not crimes, but they are meant to establish INTENT, which is apparently a very critical component of ICJ genocide charges.

Thanks for that. Nothing like seeing it all laid out.

 

These points really make me think this is about never ending war. Getting the situation so that its almost guaranteed to repeat itself.

 

And American has also done some fine thing overseas (Japan and South Korea), along with the bad things.

[All_Pro_Bills]

2 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

Here ya go, Tibs!

 

The United Nations’ definition of genocide: “Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group.

2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group.

3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.

4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.

5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

 

The definition of ethnic cleansing: “The systematic and forced removal of an ethnic, religious, or racial group from a given area, with the intent of making that area ethnically homogeneous.”

 

The definition of collective punishment: “A punishment imposed on a group for acts allegedly perpetrated by a member of that group.”

 

Other than clause #5 in the genocide criteria, I could argue that Israel is guilty of all of the above. The ICJ has already called the genocide accusation “plausible.” Here is my own list of reasons why I would advance the charge from “plausible” to “probable” (please feel free to edit or add):

 

1. A completely unacceptable civilian casualty ratio, by historical war standards, of 9.9:1 (this is a 90.8% civilian casualty percentage…34,570 civilian deaths to 3,496 combatant deaths…source: Euro-Med HRM, Feb 23).

2. Woefully inadequate actions taken to prevent famine in Gaza.

3. Two million displaced Gazans, with no apparent plans provided or promises given for returning to their homes.

4. Numerous instances of documented and suspected war crimes, such as the most recent IDF convoy slaughter in northern Gaza.

5. Incendiary and dehumanizing rhetoric from far-right government leaders that indicate genocidal intent.

6. Official Israeli government rejection of any future talks for two-state or one-state solutions.

7. Hostage rescue not appearing to be a high priority, as many Israeli citizen protestors have argued and as the appearance of indiscriminate bombing in Jabalia, Gaza City, and Khan Younis suggests.

8. No articulation of what a “victory” over Hamas would look like, along with a distinct lack of awareness in how their October 7 retribution will multiply manyfold a new generation of Hamas-like terrorists.

9. Evidence of cultural erasure with hundreds of mosques, schools, cemeteries, and heritage sites destroyed.

10. Innumerable attempts to obfuscate and conceal war crimes via bureaucratic lying (UNRWA worker allegations, etc.), preventions of media access inside Gaza, and false propaganda campaigns (Anat Schwartz, etc.)…not to mention attacks on 173 press headquarters and the deaths of 130+ journalists.

11. Guilt by historical context: Zionism’s ideological roots in settler colonialism and the ensuing ethnostate practices of apartheid, violent acts of ethnic cleansing such as the 1948 Nakba, repeatedly broken promises during negotiations with Palestinians, and land seizures like after the 1967 Six-Day War or like the illegal West Bank settlements which are intended to break up Palestinian land contiguity.

12. Guilt by association: Israel existing as a critical Middle Eastern proxy state for an imperialistic sugar daddy, the American Empire…and we Americans are responsible for a litany of our own international ethics violations (disastrous regime-change wars, organized coups, drone strikes, and general labor/resource exploitation throughout the Middle East and the Americas…dating back to the Monroe Doctrine, really).

13. An imminent Rafah invasion that will likely only strengthen the charges against Israel.

 

Note that some of the aforementioned reasons are obviously not crimes, but they are meant to establish INTENT, which is apparently a very critical component of ICJ genocide charges.

Well done.  But the world doesn't run strictly on some rules based order.  Under the current set of arrangements and alliances, no US administration is ever going to allow Israel to face any formal charges of genocide or other actions consistent with "war crimes".  No matter their intent or how many civilians they end up killing.  Like it or not Washington wields both formal and informal "veto power" and decides who will be held accountable and who will be allowed to "break" the rules.  

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4 by All_Pro_Bills

[The Frankish Reich]

3 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Well done.  But the world doesn't run strictly on some rules based order.  Under the current set of arrangements and alliances, no US administration is ever going to allow Israel to face any formal charges of genocide or other actions consistent with "war crimes".  No matter their intent or how many civilians they end up killing.  Like it or not Washington wields both formal and informal "veto power" and decides who will be held accountable and who will be allowed to "break" the rules.  

 

 

 

 

True, but you are mixing up a couple things.

The International Court of Justice (the old so-called "World Court") is not subject to a U.S. (or other country's) veto in its decision-making. The U.S. has been found to be in violation of international law before, and Israel may be now.

That's separate (but related) to the question of enforcement of such an order. And here you're correct. But that doesn't make an ICJ decision meaningless, which is why the accused countries actually defend themselves before that court.

[B-Man]

 

 

STICKING POINTS

By Scott Johnson

 

Reading about the ceasefire negotiations that the ceasefire negotiations with which the Biden administration hopes to engineer a Hamas victory requires a certain kind of immunity to savagery. Hamas seeks to trade kidnapped Israelis for terrorists who can help Hamas finish the task it undertook on October 7. The Hamas terrorists are murderers and genocidaires. The Israelis are, well, you know, Jewish.

 

Hamas seeks ten terrorists in exchange for every kidnapped Israeli and Israel seems okay with the proposition and the ratio.

 

However, the Israelis declined to show up in Cairo for further negotiations so long as Hamas refuses to provide a list of living kidnap victims. The Israelis assess that 31 of the kidnap victims taken by Hamas on October 7 are now dead. This is either elided in mainstream news accounts or referred to euphemistically as one of the “sticking points.” The Times of Israel summed up the status of negotiations yesterday:

 

Israel has said that 31 of the 130 hostages held since October 7 are dead. The first phase of the mooted deal is reported to provide for the release of 40 of the living hostages, including women, children, the elderly and the sick, in the course of a six-week truce, and in exchange for some 400 Palestinian security prisoners. The outline reportedly provides for negotiations on the further phased release of the remaining hostages, living and dead, in return for longer pauses in the fighting and many more Palestinian prisoner releases.

On Sunday afternoon, a Hamas official told CNN that the group will not agree to a deal without Israel consenting to an end to the war in Gaza, a non-starter for Israel.

Citing “a highly placed source” in the terror group, CNN reported that the two other areas of disagreement holding up a deal are the withdrawal of IDF troops from Gaza, and Gazan civilians being allowed to return to the northern Gaza Strip.

 

 

Vice President Harris found this a good time to hammer Israel yesterday in Selma, Alabama (White House transcript here). Israel is apparently responsible for “the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.” Why, “just a few days ago, we saw hungry, desperate people approach aid trucks, simply trying to secure food for their families after weeks of nearly no aid reaching Northern Gaza. And they were met with gunfire and chaos.” The savages of Hamas have their allies among the idiots, useful or otherwise, of the Biden administration.

 

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2024/03/sticking-points.php

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-wont-send-team-to-cairo-after-hamas-refuses-to-offer-list-of-living-hostages/

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2024/03/03/remarks-by-vice-president-harris-commemorating-the-59th-anniversary-of-bloody-sunday-selma-al/

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

Is it better to be the (alleged) party of Putin or Iran?

[Pokebball]

3 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Thanks for that. Nothing like seeing it all laid out.

 

These points really make me think this is about never ending war. Getting the situation so that its almost guaranteed to repeat itself.

 

And American has also done some fine thing overseas (Japan and South Korea), along with the bad things.

There's actually been quite a few cease fires.

[Tiberius]

18 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

There's actually been quite a few cease fires.

Yes

[Irv]

Hilarious!

 

 

 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

4 minutes ago, Irv said:

Hilarious!

 

 

 

 

 

But VP Harris says "fight on" in Georgia. 

 

After opening for only one day, a Six Flags amusement park near Atlanta, Georgia was overrun by a mob of up to 600 rioters who proceeded to fight each other and destroy property.  The incident led to a shootout involving the Cobb County Police Department and resulted in the hospitalization of an alleged assailant. 

[Irv]

2 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

But VP Harris says "fight on" in Georgia. 

 

After opening for only one day, a Six Flags amusement park near Atlanta, Georgia was overrun by a mob of up to 600 rioters who proceeded to fight each other and destroy property.  The incident led to a shootout involving the Cobb County Police Department and resulted in the hospitalization of an alleged assailant. 

 

Shame in you.  That was a peaceful protest.  Let them all go. 

[Tiberius]

 

[Andy1]

I’m all for international standards in war but if you are going to apply them to Israel, they should also be applied to the actions and official declarations of Hamas.
 

I keep thinking to myself, “What would America do if we had a neighbor like Hamas next to us, in a place like Gaza, who had a declared policy for our extermination, who also attacked us at a proportional scale as what Israel suffered?” I’m not sure we would do anything different. Would the American public be concerned about the lives of those people? Look at our response to September 11. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, Andy1 said:

I’m all for international standards in war but if you are going to apply them to Israel, they should also be applied to the actions and official declarations of Hamas.
 

I keep thinking to myself, “What would America do if we had a neighbor like Hamas next to us, in a place like Gaza, who had a declared policy for our extermination, who also attacked us at a proportional scale as what Israel suffered?” I’m not sure we would do anything different. Would the American public be concerned about the lives of those people? Look at our response to September 11. 

Good point. I've been thinking along the same lines. It's a difficult comparison because we're talking about a densely populated sliver of land, not the wide of expanse of theoretical attacker Canada/Mexico. But isn't it important that we didn't try to bomb Afghanistan into an uninhabitable place? We attacked Taliban strongholds and training camps, and then embarked on an ill-advised nation-building operation. I'm not sure there is anything comparable.