The Death of the Kickoff Return

[The Wiz]

6 hours ago, frostbitmic said:

Kicking the ball through the uprights on the kickoff should be worth a point. It would be a detriment to drawing a 10 or 15 yard penalty on the XP.

Let's make it even more interesting.  A kickoff that lands or goes through the endzone (not through the up-rights) results in a loss of a point.  The ball can hit before the endzone and not be a lost point.

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

How many fair catches have there been this year?

 

There is no rule preventing a returner, such as Hines, from running the kick back.  They simply have to the option to fair catch it in bounds for a touchback.

 

Returns certainly have not been "legislated out of the game"

 

 

Did you even read the statistics in the article I posted? How in the 90s a touchback was rare, versus today where the touchback percentage is 80.9%? The league has made an effort to greatly reduce the number of returns, a fact even you alluded to, so then how can you say in the next breath they’re not being legislated out of the game?

These are the facts:

- The kickoff was moved 5 yards closer to the endzone, which naturally resulted in more touchbacks.

- Teams started kicking higher and shorter in an effort to force a return, so the league gave returners permission to fair catch the kick, thereby putting it at the 25 anyway. 
- A player can decide to take a kick out of the endzone, of course, but this assumes they have a play on the ball and it’s not booted out of the endzone as we’ve so often seen. 

Kickoffs are certainly being legislated out of the game, the article and the return statistics prove that fact. The XFL model, as I stated, eliminates 200+ pound players crashing into each other at top speeds, which lessens the concussion concerns. 

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Did you even read the statistics in the article I posted? How in the 90s a touchback was rare, versus today where the touchback percentage is 80.9%? The league has made an effort to greatly reduce the number of returns, a fact even you alluded to, so then how can you say in the next breath they’re not being legislated out of the game?

These are the facts:

- The kickoff was moved 5 yards closer to the endzone, which naturally resulted in more touchbacks.

- Teams started kicking higher and shorter in an effort to force a return, so the league gave returners permission to fair catch the kick, thereby putting it at the 25 anyway. 
- A player can decide to take a kick out of the endzone, of course, but this assumes they have a play on the ball and it’s not booted out of the endzone as we’ve so often seen. 

Kickoffs are certainly being legislated out of the game, the article and the return statistics prove that fact. The XFL model, as I stated, eliminates 200+ pound players crashing into each other at top speeds, which lessens the concussion concerns. 

 

There is no rule that says that a player may not return any kicked ball.

 

There, I've said it twice. 

 

It is the teams that are choosing the fair catch because they know the odds of returning a kick past the 25 yard line are less than 50%. They knew that last year as well, when only 6 teams averaged 25 or more yards per return (for a grand total of 6 TDs league wide). Now they have another option to be awarded the ball at the 25. 

 

 

Or they could return it.  No "legislation" has changed that.

[Brand J]

53 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

There is no rule that says that a player may not return any kicked ball.

 

There, I've said it twice. 

 

It is the teams that are choosing the fair catch because they know the odds of returning a kick past the 25 yard line are less than 50%. They knew that last year as well, when only 6 teams averaged 25 or more yards per return (for a grand total of 6 TDs league wide). Now they have another option to be awarded the ball at the 25. 

 

 

Or they could return it.  No "legislation" has changed that.

No one is arguing laws against returning a kick, except you. Rules have been put in place to greatly reduce the amount of kickoff returns, that’s fact. There, I’ve said it 3, 4, 5 times already. I’ve repeated to you ad nauseam what has been done since the 90s to create higher and higher touchback percentages. I also suggested the XFL model which protects against high speed collisions, which in turn lessens the risk of concussions, something you objected to in my first post, when you agreed the league wants less kickoff returns.

You’re in your own little made up argument. 

[djp14150]

11 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

No kickoff returns are not dead.  The Texans had an upfield blocker go all the way for a TD in a kickoff last Sunday.  The NFL will continue to tweak it until it is outlawed and deemed too dangerous.  I would suggest they start by putting a ball kicked out of or downed in the endzone back to the 20, 25 is too generous imo.

They could have kickoffs operate with punt rules where the ball has to bounce twice in the field thrn it can go out of bounds snd be where they start the drive. Two bounces gives an opportunity for the re diving team to have fielded it. One bounce could be right inside the line so not much of a chance.

 

it’s a physics problem.  Think of a head on collision vs a side swipe.

 

this is the same reason for outlawing the over the middle pass throws then boom.

[Dr.Sack]

Real simple fix: touchbacks move to the 35.

[Brand J]

2 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

Real simple fix: touchbacks move to the 35.

How would that fix it? It would just incentivize teams even more to fair catch the ball when teams kick it shorter. If you want more returns, you push the line of scrimmage back, not forwards. I liked it when touchbacks started at the 20.

[Dr.Sack]

4 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

How would that fix it? It would just incentivize teams even more to fair catch the ball when teams kick it shorter. If you want more returns, you push the line of scrimmage back, not forwards. I liked it when touchbacks started at the 20.

I prefer end zone kicks go to the 20, and kicks shorter start at the 35. 

[ProcessTruster]

pretty much a waste of time.   for all the Devin Hesters of the world , the fans never see the dozens of career ending and/or life changing injuries under the old blocking wedge and wedge busters of the past.  the athletes are so much bigger and faster than 30 years ago, the high speed head end car crash stuff unfortunately needs to go away

[Mr. WEO]

7 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

No one is arguing laws against returning a kick, except you. Rules have been put in place to greatly reduce the amount of kickoff returns, that’s fact. There, I’ve said it 3, 4, 5 times already. I’ve repeated to you ad nauseam what has been done since the 90s to create higher and higher touchback percentages. I also suggested the XFL model which protects against high speed collisions, which in turn lessens the risk of concussions, something you objected to in my first post, when you agreed the league wants less kickoff returns.

You’re in your own little made up argument. 

 

 

you've done this in every post, repeating it ad nauseum: giving teams a choice and options isn't "legislating out kickoffs".  simple as that.

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

you've done this in every post, repeating it ad nauseum: giving teams a choice and options isn't "legislating out kickoffs".  simple as that.

Teams have ALWAYS had a choice and options, when have they not? 😂
 

When MULTIPLE RULES are enacted to minimize a particular play - in this case the kickoff, hence the “endangered kickoff” article I linked - then yes, those rules are responsible for removing returns from the game. Not entirely of course, 20% of kicks are returned today, which is a far cry from the once 90% return rate we enjoyed before concussions became a concern. It’s as simple as that. Sorry this is too much for you to comprehend. 

7 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

pretty much a waste of time.   for all the Devin Hesters of the world , the fans never see the dozens of career ending and/or life changing injuries under the old blocking wedge and wedge busters of the past.  the athletes are so much bigger and faster than 30 years ago, the high speed head end car crash stuff unfortunately needs to go away

I don’t disagree, but do wish they’d find a model that allows some sort of excitement in its place. If not the XFL model, then something comparable that doesn’t involve players crashing into each other at top speed. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

21 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

No kickoff returns are not dead.  The Texans had an upfield blocker go all the way for a TD in a kickoff last Sunday.  The NFL will continue to tweak it until it is outlawed and deemed too dangerous.  I would suggest they start by putting a ball kicked out of or downed in the endzone back to the 20, 25 is too generous imo.

I agree that the 25 yard line start position is too generous. 

 

The 20 made more sense. 

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Teams have ALWAYS had a choice and options, when have they not? 😂
 

When MULTIPLE RULES are enacted to minimize a particular play - in this case the kickoff, hence the “endangered kickoff” article I linked - then yes, those rules are responsible for removing returns from the game. Not entirely of course, 20% of kicks are returned today, which is a far cry from the once 90% return rate we enjoyed before concussions became a concern. It’s as simple as that. Sorry this is too much for you to comprehend. 

I don’t disagree, but do wish they’d find a model that allows some sort of excitement in its place. If not the XFL model, then something comparable that doesn’t involve players crashing into each other at top speed. 

 

 

There ya go!!  You should have just led with that and skipped all the "legislated out" nonsense.

 

Anyway, yeah, those days back when guys ran back a lot more kicks, struggling to get to the 25 yard line.  

 

Look, the owners and teams aren't complaining--in fact the latter are taking advantage of the rule to get better field position, not to "reduce concussions".   If they thought returning the kick was a better play, they would.  They know it never was, so they don't.  Go look at the XFL return stats and tell us how that's a more exciting play

 

Stop digging that hole.

[Brand J]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

There ya go!!  You should have just led with that and skipped all the "legislated out" nonsense.

 

Anyway, yeah, those days back when guys ran back a lot more kicks, struggling to get to the 25 yard line.  

 

Look, the owners and teams aren't complaining--in fact the latter are taking advantage of the rule to get better field position, not to "reduce concussions".   If they thought returning the kick was a better play, they would.  They know it never was, so they don't.  Go look at the XFL return stats and tell us how that's a more exciting play

 

Stop digging that hole.

My fault for assuming you were intelligent enough to know that teams have always had options to return the ball… or not. 
 

And of course they’re taking advantage of the new rules for better field position, that’s why I said moving the ball back to the 20 would result in more returns - which the league doesn’t want. 
 

The XFL model is a more exciting play, because… get this… it’s a play! It’s not simply a 80% chance of a fair catch, or a ball bouncing in or through the endzone. Perhaps the touchback is more your cup of tea versus the XFL return model. You should have just led with that.

[WhoTom]

How about if the two of you who are tossing insults at each other take it offline?

 

 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

My fault for assuming you were intelligent enough to know that teams have always had options to return the ball… or not. 
 

And of course they’re taking advantage of the new rules for better field position, that’s why I said moving the ball back to the 20 would result in more returns - which the league doesn’t want. 
 

The XFL model is a more exciting play, because… get this… it’s a play! It’s not simply a 80% chance of a fair catch, or a ball bouncing in or through the endzone. Perhaps the touchback is more your cup of tea versus the XFL return model. You should have just led with that.

 

You have that backwards---I've stated that in every post.

 

Coaches don't want it.  Go yell at them for robbing you of all that kickoff excitement. No one has stopped watching the NFL because guys aren't getting drilled at the 21 yard line as much anymore...

 

 

 

 

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, WhoTom said:

How about if the two of you who are tossing insults at each other take it offline?

 

 

This is what WEO does, he lives for the pettiness. I engage to a certain point because I find the act humorous and laugh as he talks in circles.

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

You have that backwards---I've stated that in every post.

 

Coaches don't want it.  Go yell at them for robbing you of all that kickoff excitement. No one has stopped watching the NFL because guys aren't getting drilled at the 21 yard line as much anymore...

 

 

 

 

That players have always had an option to return the ball or not was not the argument. Of course they have. You seemingly agreed that the kickoff is being phased out of the game and then in the next breath said it wasn’t, only that players were given options  (which doesn’t make any sense).
More nonsense with your “no one has stopped watching the NFL…” statement. Of course they haven’t. The plea is to substitute the current kickoff with something a little more exciting than a touchback and what’s the best course of action to do that without having grown men slam themselves into each other at top speeds? That’s both points in a nutshell, two concepts you evidently have trouble grasping. 

[WhoTom]

1 minute ago, JayBaller10 said:

This is what WEO does, he lives for the pettiness. I engage to a certain point because I find the act humorous and laugh as he talks in circles.

 

You've both stated and restated your points several times. Now you're just calling each other stupid for apparently not understanding what the other one is saying. At this point, neither is adding anything to the discussion.

 

 

[PatsFanNH]

23 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Kickers are just too strong now.  Maybe start kicking off from the 25, that will eliminate a whole lot of touchbacks.

Except under the new rule if they call for a fair catch they get the ball at the 25.. aka same result

[Brand J]

3 minutes ago, WhoTom said:

 

You've both stated and restated your points several times. Now you're just calling each other stupid for apparently not understanding what the other one is saying. At this point, neither is adding anything to the discussion.

 

 

You’re right, Tom. I’ll just let the statistics of my point and the original article that sparked this discussion stand…

Quote

Why one of football’s most thrilling plays is vanishing from the NFL

He can continue his act if he so chooses. Thanks for being the voice of reason 😄

[RoyBatty is alive]

6 minutes ago, PatsFanNH said:

Except under the new rule if they call for a fair catch they get the ball at the 25.. aka same result

 i know, i hate the new rule.  

 

I will give credit to Belichek, he had his kickers able to frequently kick it high and land about the 5, more often than not the returner never go it to the 20 or 25.  Now that strategy/gamesmenship in football is gone.

[BuffaloBill]

23 hours ago, Dafan said:

I wish they'd just get ride of the penalty for kicking off out off bounds.  If a kicker can put it out on the 5 yard line...let it stand that way.

 

thats blatantly unfair to the return team 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, WhoTom said:

 

You've both stated and restated your points several times. Now you're just calling each other stupid for apparently not understanding what the other one is saying. At this point, neither is adding anything to the discussion.

 

 

 

 

I haven't once

[Warcodered]

 

[Mr. WEO]

19 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

 

This idiot hillbilly gets too much love here.

 

Anyone watching that clip once would see that the returner made a smart decision--he never would have crossed the 25 yards line before getting drilled.

[Warcodered]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

This idiot hillbilly gets too much love here.

 

Anyone watching that clip once would see that the returner made a smart decision--he never would have crossed the 25 yards line before getting drilled.

Yeah it's not like blocking for the return is also a part of special teams.

[Mr. WEO]

13 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Yeah it's not like blocking for the return is also a part of special teams.

it was a typical dumb take by that blowhard

[Warcodered]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

it was a typical dumb take by that blowhard

He complained about the Special teams coach and play so not really, you get a kickoff on the 12 and aren't able to attempt a return and that is garbage.

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

He complained about the Special teams coach and play so not really, you get a kickoff on the 12 and aren't able to attempt a return and that is garbage.

not for the return team.  It’s a choice: run based on coverage or fair catch. Whichever gets at least 25. Quick decision.