Bills practice Thurs 8/17 starting with McD interview

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, JayBaller10 said:

I’m wasting my time. Good day, sir.

I definitely agree with that.

[Logic]

5 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Some of us are better at seeing the talent level of players than others.

More like...some of us have delusions of grandeur and unearned confidence.

Like I've said before, though, props on committing to the bit. You're an excellent old timey wrestling heel. Like Roddy Piper or Ric Flair, but without the sense of humor and the style. Kudos!

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, Logic said:

More like...some of us have delusions of grandeur and unearned confidence.

Like I've said before, though, props on committing to the bit. You're an excellent old timey wrestling heel. Like Roddy Piper or Ric Flair, but without the sense of humor and the style. Kudos!

He argued with me for pages this time last year that Allen Robinson was a top 10 WR and that the Titans had a better roster than the Bills.

[Warcodered]

 

[Logic]

5 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

He argued with me for pages this time last year that Allen Robinson was a top 10 WR and that the Titans had a better roster than the Bills.

Well...

Some of us are better at seeing the talent level of players than others.

 

[Thurman#1]

On 8/17/2023 at 11:06 PM, Beck Water said:

My point wasn't about McKenzie succeeding or not in his role as a Beasley slot replacement (he didn't), my point was that the Bills offensive coaches last season had Hines for half the season and McKenzie all season (two fast guys), and did not manage to use them in a way that leveraged their best attribute - their speed.

 

 

 

Isabella was drafted in the 2nd round.  High draft picks usually get more leeway, yet he was dumped off his first team before the end of his contract.  They tried to trade him and no one was interested. 

 

It's always possible that "3rd team's the charm", sure

 

 

 

I'd argue that they did leverage the speed of McKenzie and Hines. Hines mostly as a KR and appeared to have spent a lot of his energy there. And McKenzie had by far his best seasons in Buffalo. Both solidly productive. Both used for their speed.

 

Most of us had hoped for more in both cases, but do we know for sure there was a lot more meat on the bone for those guys in this system?

 

Neither guy was used in the role they appear to want to use Isabella in. McKenzie didn't seem able to consistently make hay as a receiver. His niche appeared to be gadget guy. Isabella appears to be able to be used consistently in the pass game.

 

Kyler hasn't had a ton of success with any slots that I can rememer, has he? I could be wrong but I can't remember him running up more than 400 odd yards with anybody, including Rondale Moore and Dortch. 

 

Josh is a guy who absolutely loves throwing to a good slot guy like the prime Beasley. 

 

Not that I'm saying Isabella is a sure thing or even that I'm sure he'll make the roster. I just think there's a better chance for him to make real contributions here than many in this discussion seem to think.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

34 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Teams don't draft players based on the evidence they see from college tape.

 

They base their decision on 0 NFL games or starts.

 

Some of us are better at seeing the talent level of players than others.

 

 

Some are indeed better.

 

The fact that you think you're one of them - simultaneously calling a guy a bust with wildly inadequate information on top of your confirmed somewhat nutsy track record -  affords me great amusement. Thanks for that, though.

 

And thanks also for your chuckle-worthy take in this very post. "Teams don't draft players based on the evidence they see from college tape. They base their decision on 0 NFL games or starts." Classic. "Teams base their draft decisions on 0 NFL games or starts," you say? So their draft evaluations for every guy is the same, as they all 0 NFL games, and NFL games are the standard for drafting them? Genius!!!

 

You're not one of them. Neither am I for that matter, but I don't pretend to be. Gunner and Logic, on the other hand are clearly among the best on here.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Einstein]

5 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Gunner and Logic, on the other hand are clearly among the best on here.

 

Gunner's opinion on this topic leans toward mine. 

[Einstein]

34 minutes ago, Logic said:

You're an excellent old timey wrestling heel. Like Roddy Piper or Ric Flair

 

I will have to take your word for it. I'm not hip with trailer-park fake sports.

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am sorry I totally disagree. I think they tried 3rd round pick a year out, a vet that took less to stay close to home in FA and then likely had a plan for this draft that didn't transpire. 

 

This is not plan A. This is make the best of what they have.

Every team after all their plans makes the best of what they have at/by the start of every season. It’s always been that way, look at Miami, their LT is made of wet papier-mâché, the guy is always getting injured, yet they make the best of what they have, such examples abound throughout the league. This MLB thing has good deal more to do with fan anxiety than anything else, it has gotten to the point of becoming a, Francesco Franco is still dead joke on Saturday night live…,  

[Alphadawg7]

9 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Obviously you'll have a lot of support for that POV here at TBD and if I take a more moderate position, experience suggests I'll be painted as a fan-boy. 

 

You wont get any grief from me if you like McKenzie as a player more than others, everyone is entitled to have their own view

 

9 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I just don't think it's logical to suggest that a 5'7", 173 late-round pick stays in the league 6 years unless there's more to him than fun-loving gadget guy (or the coaches are mysteriously building a winning, contending team by being stupid, which is another popular viewpoint here at times, but I digress) . 

 

In 6 years in the league  his stats suggest he is a backup to gadget guy at best, so I am not connecting the dots on how length of time in the league suggests he is more than a gadget guy.  There are players all across the league who have had sustained careers as a niche specialist or gadget guy.  

 

9 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think the truth is more nuanced.  At times, none of the things you say were true, except the hands; he did body-catch balls consistently.  He made tough catches sometimes.  He tracked the ball and got there sometimes.  He ran solid routes sometimes.  He made the catch in traffic sometimes.  And he understood the game.  At different times, all of the things you say were true. I wouldn't say "not cerebral" (again, you don't have a 5'7" 173 lb guy in the NFL for 6 years if he doesn't have a head for the game). I would say "lost focus" (at bad times.

 

No disrespect Beck, I enjoy your opinions, but I honestly am puzzled by this one if I am being honest.  Your multiple references to that he "sometimes" does those things is pretty much the definition of not being very good at it by NFL terms.  Being good at something means you do it consistently, the fact he "ran solid routes sometimes" is not a statement you would make about a player who was good at running routes.  Everyone in the NFL can "sometimes" be good at something or they wouldn't be in the NFL.  Its the guys who consistently do these things who go on to be quality players/starters or better in the NFL. 

 

IMHO being in the league 6 years doesn't seem to be a reflection on whether he had a high football IQ or not.  There are all kinds of guys who don't have high football IQ's who have long careers in the league, so not seeing the connection here.   IMHO, he just didn't play with a high football IQ and mental mistakes got him benched or inactive for games while he was here.

 

9 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

In the end, you're right, he wasn't 'enough' as a starting player, not because he couldn't do any of those things, but because he couldn't become consistent at doing them.  That's not uncommon for lower-tier guys who work their way up to a shot to start.   They got that shot because they COULD do those things.  Some make good; some lose that shot because they can't do the things they can do, consistently.  It's like Fitzpatrick at QB.  At times, he could make those jaw-dropping throws.  Then there were the pick-6s thrown at the worst possible time.  Not consistent enough.

 

As you said above, he is inconsistent in these areas.  IMHO I don't think it sounds any better when I change my verbiage to say McKenzie has "inconsistent" hands, was inconsistent as a route runner, was inconsistent at tracking the deep ball, was inconsistent in traffic, was inconsistent with contested catches, and inconsistent in his decision making.  To me that still sounds like a WR that shouldn't be starting at his position in the NFL.  

 

What he was good at were those short to medium gadget plays where he isn't drawing the teeth of the defense and he carved a role out for himself in Buffalo as such a player.

 

As far as Fitz goes, he is another example of someone whose inconsistency made he a poor choice as a starter while having good value as a backup.  There is a reason every team after Buffalo gave up on him quickly as a starter and he became a journeyman QB, because he was just good enough to keep you from totally sucking but not good enough to get you over the hump.  He could get hot for a short bit then just go ice cold or fold in big moments.  Valuable backup QB though because he was capable of getting hot for short periods of time.  

 

9 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

The thing is, I think many of those things have been said of Andy Isabella - not a good or consistent route-runner, doesn't catch well in traffic, body-catches, doesn't track the deep ball well - but never, for whatever reason, got used as a gadget guy either.  So we'll see.  Maybe he will be that guy who gets his 3rd chance and makes good.

 

I am intrigued with Isabella given his speed and positive buzz since getting here.  But he still needs to make the team first and this is a talented group this year, so it won't be easy, but he is trending in the right direction.  My guess is we need to keep at least 6 for it to be possible as I expect Diggs, Davis, Sherfield, Harty, and Shakir to make the final 53 as it is.  Of those 5, he could push Shakir for his spot, but I still think they are high on Shakir and they know he wont be safe on the PS, so I think he will be part of the top 5 on the final 53.  

 

This WR group IMHO is going to be fun to watch this season and really looking forward to it, not to mention Kincaid as well!

[newcam2012]

12 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

How?  I put out a post asking folks like you to tell me your plan, what guy you would have gotten, how you would have fit him under the cap, how it would have affected other positions that may have needed upgrades.  And your response?  crickets.  You're just blowing a lot of hot air.

But again the Bills won each game when Dodson started last year.  So clearly it can be "mitigated".  

Not an accurate painted picture here. The sample size is too small and the quality of the opponents have to be factored in. 

[newcam2012]

11 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

That Beane drafted Edmunds is now ancient history.

 

What matters is what Beane's done in the past three years.  Essentially what he did, it appears, is learn from the mistake he made when he drafted Edmunds.  

 

The simple fact is that for the last three seasons, Beane has known that he would have to make a decision about Edmunds.  What he decided is that he wouldn't pay him his value in the market and would let him walk.   He didn't make that decision because he couldn't afford Edmunds.  He couldn't afford Edmunds because he'd already decided he wasn't going to spend a lot of money on a middle linebacker.  How do we know that?   Because he spent his money on every other position on the defense, that's how.   He gave White his money.  He gave Oliver his money.  He paid Taron Johnson.  He paid Poyer.  He paid Von Miller all the money that he could have used to pay Edmunds.  He paid Jones, he paid Settle, he paid Floyd, he paid Ford.   He paid Milano.  He paid every position EXCEPT middle linebacker.   He drafted edge rushers.  He drafted a corner back.   The linebackers he drafted were almost after thoughts. 

 

Beane dedicated essentially no resources to linebacker.   Now, maybe you think he just forgot the position and woke up this June and suddenly realized he didn't have a middle linebacker, but I don't.   Beane's allocation of resources is evidence, clear evidence, of what he thinks about the importance of the position.  There can be no other conclusion.  

 

Beane and McDermott decided they had enough talent to play linebacker this season, so Beane did nothing to upgrade the position.  Whether that decision was good or bad, whether it will bite the Bills or not, can be know only as the season plays out.  

 

People can have opinions now.  They have opinions about Shakier, about Elam, about Torrence, about Allen (not that one, the other one), but those are all just opinions.  Five months from now we'll know better which opinions were correct and which were not.  The same is true about middle linebacker.   Today, anyone's opinion that the position is trainwreck is just that, an opinion.  

 

Beane and McDermott CHOSE the middle linebackers they have.  They chose them for a reason.  I'm prepared to wait and see how this is going to work. 

 

 

Fair point. I don't totally agree but no need to elaborate. 

[Shaw66]

19 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Fair point. I don't totally agree but no need to elaborate. 

Yeah.  I have higher expectations than most, because I trust that McDermott has figured this out.  

 

The objective for the season, as always, is to get through the first half of the season with 6 or 7 wins.   By then, some of the younger players will be contributing in ways that we don't see yet.  In the middle, it may be any combination of Dodson, Bernard, Williams, Milano, and Rapp.  Plus, thee will be adjustments in the style of play to accommodate the talents of the various players.   The question really becomes how good will the defensive unit be.  The middle linebacker position may be the limiting factor in how good they will be; it's up to McDermott to see that that doesn't happen.  

  

[oldmanfan]

51 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Not an accurate painted picture here. The sample size is too small and the quality of the opponents have to be factored in. 

If MLB was so critical to the performance of the D and Dodson was as bad as some make him out to be then how did we not lose at least one of them?

 

I say the above to point out the absurdity of the position some have here.  Football is of course a team game and one single player outside the QB rarely makes the total difference.  But the Chicken Littles here seem to think the MLB does.  And of course many are the same who belittled Edmunds for years.  It just gets ridiculous after a while.  Let’s just watch how it goes.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by oldmanfan

[Cash]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am sorry I totally disagree. I think they tried 3rd round pick a year out, a vet that took less to stay close to home in FA and then likely had a plan for this draft that didn't transpire. 

 

This is not plan A. This is make the best of what they have.

I tend to agree with this, just with less certainty as to their plan. But it’s very plausible that they went in to the draft expecting to trade down and still get their top target for an Edmunds replacement. And even that wouldn’t have been Plan A. I believe Beane when he says the plan is always to go into the draft with all holes filled, so you can truly pick BPA. 
 

My take? Beane and McDermott both have a lot of business training and mindset. I think Beane & co. do a cost-benefit analysis at the start of the offseason, and it probably looks at reasonable best and worst case scenarios for every position. They might have already decided to change up the scheme a bit to take some responsibility off of the MLB.
 

(There were some fairly credible reports that Frazier left because he didn’t agree with McDermott’s vision for the defense.)

 

 If that’s the case, maybe they figured it’s no longer a critical position, and they could afford to roll out A. J. Klein as a worst case scenario. Or maybe they struck out on FAs because they weren’t willing to meet asking price or guarantee a starting job or something. 

[billieve420]

There are only so many positions that can be filled in the offseason with a team against the cap. I agreed with letting Edmunds walk. If things don’t work out at MLB. Think Beane can swing a deal come the trade deadline for a linebacker.  More concerned with the depth at tackle currently which will be much harder to fill.

[newcam2012]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

If MLB was so critical to the performance of the D and Dodson was as bad as some make him out to be then how did we not lose at least one of them?

 

I say the above to point out the absurdity of the position some have here.  Football is of course a team game and one single player outside the QB rarely makes the total difference.  But the Chicken Littles here seem to think the MLB does.  And of course many are the same who belittled Edmunds for years.  It just gets ridiculous after a while.  Let’s just watch how it goes.

 

 

I agree. All I'm saying is the Bills seem to have a weakness at MLB. We have no idea how it will play out this season. 

 

What's kind of ironic is how many now seemingly are minimizing the position. I mean Edmunds was literally the QB of the defense. When he was out the Bills defense was weaker. 

 

I'm not saying the Bills can't or won't win with Dodson or whoever is the starting MLB. I get many have confidence in McD's defense. 

 

As you said, let's see how it plays out. With that said,I think it's still fair to say the Bills have a weakness at the MLB position. Not ideal but not insurmountable. 

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

I agree. All I'm saying is the Bills seem to have a weakness at MLB. We have no idea how it will play out this season. 

 

What's kind of ironic is how many now seemingly are minimizing the position. I mean Edmunds was literally the QB of the defense. When he was out the Bills defense was weaker. 

 

I'm not saying the Bills can't or won't win with Dodson or whoever is the starting MLB. I get many have confidence in McD's defense. 

 

As you said, let's see how it plays out. With that said,I think it's still fair to say the Bills have a weakness at the MLB position. Not ideal but not insurmountable. 

They are not minimizing or maximizing.  They feel they have guys that are capable of giving them what they need there.

[GoBills808]

I thought QB wins were the dumbest stat😂😂

 

i should have known TBD would invent middle linebacker wins