Bills practice Thurs 8/17 starting with McD interview

[Royale with Cheese]

52 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

I chuckled when I saw your original post because it's absurd to require people to take time to write a detailed essay to justify an opinion that is widely shared. I could absolutely do it, but I'm not going to take the time. Your approach is a common one from fans who think the organization can do no wrong.

 

Just off the top of my head real quick: Bills could've paid Edmunds instead of Oliver and still come away with a good DT group of Jones, Ford, Settle, and Phillips; Bills could've drafted Drew Sanders (as I was hoping they would at the pick) instead of O'Cyrus Torrence and still had good guard depth with McGovern, Bates, Edwards, and Boettger; Bills could've signed Lavonte David if they had tried (and, by the way, his 2023 cap hit would easily fit under the Bills' salary cap even now). Not to mention all the other FA LBs they watched sign elsewhere for cheap. These are just a few thoughts. They should've prioritized having a starter at MLB. Do they sacrifice a bit of depth at one position if they had done the sign-Edmunds-instead or draft-Sanders-instead options? Sure, but that's kind of the point: you still have quality starters everywhere, including MLB.

 

Come on.  That would put zero, absolutely zero DT's under contract next year.  You have no true and reliable 1 - Tech.  Jordan Phillips has been injured the last 4 years...you're relying on him?  He will go down this year.  Who plays the 1-tech?

 

You're really taking issue with us drafting Torrence because we have depth?  That's like saying the Bengals didn't need to draft Jamar Chase because they had Higgins and Boyd.  The Eagles shouldn't have drafted two DL this past year because they already had depth their?

 

Since we didn't sign LaVonte David means we didn't try? 

 https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2023/03/lavonte-david-admits-one-thing-could-have-swayed-him-to-choose-buffalo-bills-over-buccaneers-in-free-agency.html

 

“Yeah, I heard a little chatter (from the Bills),” David told Eisen. You know, it was basically when I was just starting to get a little tight with the Bucs. When I was about to, you know, the deal was about to get pulled (off), I heard a little chatter from the Bills. But I was already locked in with Tampa. It’s where I wanted to be for obvious reasons.”

Edited August 18, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

5 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Come on.  That would put zero, absolutely zero DT's under contract next year.  You have no true and reliable 1 - Tech.  Jordan Phillips has been injured the last 4 years...you're relying on him?  He will go down this year.  Who plays the 1-tech?

 

You're really taking issue with us drafting Torrence because we have depth?  That's like saying the Bengals didn't need to draft Jamar Chase because they had Higgins and Boyd.  The Eagles shouldn't have drafted two DL this past year because they already had depth their?

 

Since we didn't sign LaVonte David means we didn't try? 

 https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2023/03/lavonte-david-admits-one-thing-could-have-swayed-him-to-choose-buffalo-bills-over-buccaneers-in-free-agency.html

 

“Yeah, I heard a little chatter (from the Bills),” David told Eisen. You know, it was basically when I was just starting to get a little tight with the Bucs. When I was about to, you know, the deal was about to get pulled (off), I heard a little chatter from the Bills. But I was already locked in with Tampa. It’s where I wanted to be for obvious reasons.”

I'm not going to rehash all of this -- my opinion is my opinion and we'll see if the Bills' approach bites them -- but the underlined quote is meaningless. Players will always say they always wanted to be at the place they end up signing. You also conveniently left this out:

 

“I didn’t have no conversation with Von. Oh no,” David told Eisen. “If he would have reached out, it would have been a different conversation.”

[Brand J]

I don’t know why people are still acting like Lavonte David was going back to the Bucs no matter what. He was available and could be had, but the Bills didn’t roll out the red carpet to make him feel wanted. And they got involved too late in the process. David, like Wagner, were both available for weeks and weren’t dead set on retuning to their old teams. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by JayBaller10

[Shaw66]

28 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Well, that might depend upon what argument, exactly, you're trying to make.  I started out reacting to this post of yours:

You went on to suggest that just about any guy who can thump could play MLB for the Bills:

 

To the first, I understood your argument to be that the Bills haven't done more to address MLB because they believe, like you, that the MLB is the least important guy on the defense.  He's just the communication relay who calls out the play to the D and then the "sponge" who mops up the debris by finishing the business the other players have directed his way, if I'm understanding you.

 

I don't agree that McDermott and Beane think the MLB is the "least important player on defense".  They don't think it's the most important, clearly; McDermott insists on a solid DL rotation and Beane spends the most, positionally, on secondary followed by DL.  But that's in large part a "numbers game", having 4 DL on the field at all times and 5 CB.  It doesn't mean the LB and especially the MLB is the "least important".

 

We have some guys here who have forgotten more ball than I'll ever know, but I think this 'guy who runs around in the middle and makes tackles because the guys all around the perimeter have forced the play to the inside" you write represents a tremendously naive idea of the MLB's role and responsibilities.  He has to choose the correct play variant for what the offense shows immediately pre and then post snap and cue the rest of the team to react.  If he's late in making that read or fuzzy in communicating it, there will be defensive breakdowns.  He has to read the run play and choose the correct gap to defend, but yet not get "sucked in" by play action.  Some of these were areas Edmunds struggled with early in his career and got rightly called out here!  The MLB needs to be an aggressive tackler, sure, but to do that, the MLB needs to understand where he should be to position himself to make that tackle.

And then there's pass defense, and in McD's defense, ideally the MLB has a huge role in zone pass defense which means understanding how his coverage responsibility shifts and re-shifts with different route choices the receivers show post-snap.

 

Gone are the days when the NFL MLB was a big gimondulous beast of a see-ball-get-ball thumper, true, but that hardly means the importance is gone.

 

 

So only this year's acquisitions and only making moves to sign players from OUTSIDE the team count as "something".  Re-signings, extensions and last year's moves don't count.  Got it. 

 

There was a time when Pittsburgh had the "best" linebackers, "Linebacker U".  And in that day, the philosophy was draft in the mid-rounds, and take 3 years to develop.  And Beane has a habit of drafting for potential, even in the high rounds - higher ceiling, lower floor guys.  Edmunds was an example!

The point I was trying to make is this:  Beane is like a poker player.  He has ideas of how he wants to build his winning hand, but he also reacts to what cards are available and what the other players show.  There are times when he has a position, or a position group, that he doesn't invest as many resources as he could or perhaps should.  But that doesn't mean the position or position group isn't important, it just means the cards for that hand didn't fall his way, so he did what he could with what was available.  My analogy was OL last season (where except for Saffold, he stayed pat) and slot receiver (where you might say the only thing he did was acquire Crowder and draft a 5th round pick who would be a long shot to consider this season; he also re-signed McKenzie and brought in Tavon Austin).

 

It's not that Beane thinks OL or slot are the "least important on offense".  It's that he has to build a team, not acquire the best player at every position.  So some positions get what he hopes is "enough".

 

If someone they thought was a brilliant potential slot fell to them in the draft or was available in FA, would they have invested the resource?  I would say "yes".  I would say the same thing about a prospect they thought was "all that and a bag of chips" in FA or draft for what they want at MLB.  But that didn't happen, and he had other team needs to address.

 

OK, I guess that's a long winded spiel for you to respond "I'm making your argument for you" again, but I don't think I can be any clearer.  TL;DR: the amount of resources Beane puts into a specific position or position group in a specific off-season or draft, does not indicate either his perception of that position's importance to McDermott and the Bills or its importance in the modern NFL.

 

Peace out.

You've really got this backward.   First, I don't know if the middle linebacker is the least important position on the defense.   I don't know the ins and outs of what linebackers do.  What I keep saying is that I look at what Beane and McDermott and try to deduce what they're thinking, because what they're thinking is about 1000 times more important than what I might speculate about.   And when you look at what Beane and McDermott have done, it suggests that THEY think mlb is the least most important position.  Why?   I won't repeat it all, but if you look at all their player personnel moves over the last three years (when they knew they were losing Edmunds), they didn't do anything to bring in a quality replacement for him.  They beefed up every other position on the defense, and they picked up a few guys to stick in the middle.   They had a freak athlete playing the position and they let him go.  

 

Why you think that their allocation of resources is not an indication of what's important to them is baffling to me.   You think they spent $100 million on Miller because they think the pass rush is unimportant.  The Bills have a couple hundred million dollars and multiple first and second round picks invested in this defense, and they've spent NOTHING on a middle linebacker.   You don't think that indicates something about what they think they need in the position?

[Royale with Cheese]

24 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

I'm not going to rehash all of this -- my opinion is my opinion and we'll see if the Bills' approach bites them -- but the underlined quote is meaningless. Players will always say they always wanted to be at the place they end up signing. You also conveniently left this out:

 

“I didn’t have no conversation with Von. Oh no,” David told Eisen. “If he would have reached out, it would have been a different conversation.”

 

The underlined quote is meaningless because David didn't have a conversation with Von Miller?  That's what matters?  Not the Bills FO office?  He confirmed that the Bills had interest in him.

It doesn't matter whether or not you think he's lying about wanting to be with the Bucs, it's more about you stating the Bills didn't try....they did reach out to him.

 

 

[GoBills808]

The Seahawks knew they were losing Wilson and didn't do anything to bring in a quality replacement for him

 

Clearly Pete Carroll thinks QB is the least important position on offense

[GunnerBill]

37 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You've really got this backward.   First, I don't know if the middle linebacker is the least important position on the defense.   I don't know the ins and outs of what linebackers do.  What I keep saying is that I look at what Beane and McDermott and try to deduce what they're thinking, because what they're thinking is about 1000 times more important than what I might speculate about.   And when you look at what Beane and McDermott have done, it suggests that THEY think mlb is the least most important position.  Why?   I won't repeat it all, but if you look at all their player personnel moves over the last three years (when they knew they were losing Edmunds), they didn't do anything to bring in a quality replacement for him.  They beefed up every other position on the defense, and they picked up a few guys to stick in the middle.   They had a freak athlete playing the position and they let him go.  

 

Why you think that their allocation of resources is not an indication of what's important to them is baffling to me.   You think they spent $100 million on Miller because they think the pass rush is unimportant.  The Bills have a couple hundred million dollars and multiple first and second round picks invested in this defense, and they've spent NOTHING on a middle linebacker.   You don't think that indicates something about what they think they need in the position?

 

It COULD be that Sean McDermott who has previously had 1st round picks manning MLB in his schemes has suddenly decided the position is less important. Steve Tasker's "middle linebackers matter less if nobody runs much" theory. Sure. 

 

But it doesn't HAVE to be that. We know they made an offer to Lavonte David and were rumoured to have interest in Bobby Wagner earlier in the spring. Maybe when they looked at what was out there it was their conclusion that beyond those two players there wasn't anything on the FA market that they felt would make a significant difference or that represented value. Equally in the draft maybe Jack Campbell was their guy and he didn't even get to their 1st round pick let alone their 2nd rounder. 

 

And they don't have to be right either. Whichever of those options it was. There is space for the Bills just getting it wrong.

Edited August 18, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Royale with Cheese]

51 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I don’t know why people are still acting like Lavonte David was going back to the Bucs no matter what. He was available and could be had, but the Bills didn’t roll out the red carpet to make him feel wanted. And they got involved too late in the process. David, like Wagner, were both available for weeks and weren’t dead set on retuning to their old teams. 

 

Why didn't other teams roll out the red carpet for them?

[Brand J]

7 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Why didn't other teams roll out the red carpet for them?

They’re older players and were likely looking for bigger paydays than they got. Doesn’t mean either couldn’t have been had by the Bills if the team really wanted one.

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It COULD be that Sean McDermott who has previously had 1st round picks manning MLB in his schemes has suddenly decided the position is less important. Steve Tasker's "middle linebackers matter less if nobody runs much" theory. Sure. 

 

But it doesn't HAVE to be that. We know they made an offer to Lavonte David and were rumoured to have interest in Bobby Wagner earlier in the spring. Maybe when they looked at what was out there it was their conclusion that beyond those two players there wasn't anything on the FA market that they felt would make a significant difference or that represented value. Equally in the draft maybe Jack Campbell was their guy and he didn't even get to their 1st round pick let alone their 2nd rounder. 

 

And they don't have to be right either. Whichever of those options it was. There is space for the Bills just getting it wrong.

That's correct.  But they regularly bring in players at least to compete.   They didn't do that.

 

And you can talk can talk about David and Wagner but like Edmunds, they weren't willing to pay for them.  The Bills decided that they have as much talent at the position that they need.  

 

They had two years to plan for this.  What we see is the result of their planning.  What it says is that they don’t believe they need top talent at the position, because they did nothing to get top talent.  They could have planned the cap to keep Edmunds or sign a good free agent.  They could have used a premium pick to draft someone. They did none of that.  I find it hard to coclude that the position is important to them and they just couldn't find anyone. 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, JayBaller10 said:

They’re older players and were likely looking for bigger paydays than they got. Doesn’t mean either couldn’t have been had by the Bills if the team really wanted one.

 

So overpay?  

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

So overpay?  

You didn’t see anything in my posts to suggest they should’ve overpaid. Maybe they could’ve got involved from the very beginning, made one of them feel wanted and needed. If they were offering, let’s say $6M/yr, Id bet they’d be given a chance to up the ante when the player’s original team offered 7. If the money was exactly the same between TB and BUF, maybe someone like Lavonte goes back to his long tenured team… or maybe, if the Bills had made him feel like this was the place to be all along, he would’ve chosen Buffalo. We don’t know. What we do know is he was in talks with his old team since the beginning, sat on the market for weeks looking and hoping for better offers and when it became clear none were coming, decided to return to TB.

Agent: “Oh wait, the Bills are on line 1. Sounds like they’re offering something similar.”  

Lavonte: “Nah, that’s okay, I’ve already made my decision.”

 

We have to stop the “the Bills had no chance at David or Wagner because they were always going back to their old teams” narrative.

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

You didn’t see anything in my posts to suggest they should’ve overpaid. Maybe they could’ve got involved from the very beginning, made one of them feel wanted and needed. If they were offering, let’s say $6M/yr, Id bet they’d be given a chance to up the ante when the player’s original team offered 7. If the money was exactly the same between TB and BUF, maybe someone like Lavonte goes back to his long tenured team… or maybe, if the Bills had made him feel like this was the place to be all along, he would’ve chosen Buffalo. We don’t know. What we do know is he was in talks with his old team since the beginning, sat on the market for weeks looking and hoping for better offers and when it became clear none were coming, decided to return to TB.

Agent: “Oh wait, the Bills are on line 1. Sounds like they’re offering something similar.”  

Lavonte: “Nah, that’s okay, I’ve already made my decision.”

 

We have to stop the “the Bills had no chance at David or Wagner because they were always going back to their old teams” narrative.

 

I'm not saying "Bills had no chance" at all or even alluding to it.  

I brought up the other teams because it clearly seems that the offers/feeling wanted wasn't strong with them either.  

 

What I don't understand is you say "we don't know" basically in this recruiting process.  But without knowing, you've determined we didn't make him feel wanted enough and he absolutely could have had him.

 

[Shaw66]

Z

40 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It COULD be that Sean McDermott who has previously had 1st round picks manning MLB in his schemes has suddenly decided the position is less important. Steve Tasker's "middle linebackers matter less if nobody runs much" theory. Sure. 

 

But it doesn't HAVE to be that. We know they made an offer to Lavonte David and were rumoured to have interest in Bobby Wagner earlier in the spring. Maybe when they looked at what was out there it was their conclusion that beyond those two players there wasn't anything on the FA market that they felt would make a significant difference or that represented value. Equally in the draft maybe Jack Campbell was their guy and he didn't even get to their 1st round pick let alone their 2nd rounder. 

 

And they don't have to be right either. Whichever of those options it was. There is space for the Bills just getting it wrong.

I've been thinking about this.  They weren't willing to pay Edmunds, David or Wagner.  Thatsbpretty good evidence that the league in general values linebacker talent higher than the Bills do.  They paid the going rate for Miller and for Poyer and for Oliver and for Milano, but they aren't willing to pay for a MLB.  Seems pretty clear.  

[GunnerBill]

32 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

That's correct.  But they regularly bring in players at least to compete.   They didn't do that.

 

And you can talk can talk about David and Wagner but like Edmunds, they weren't willing to pay for them.  The Bills decided that they have as much talent at the position that they need.  

 

They had two years to plan for this.  What we see is the result of their planning.  What it says is that they don’t believe they need top talent at the position, because they did nothing to get top talent.  They could have planned the cap to keep Edmunds or sign a good free agent.  They could have used a premium pick to draft someone. They did none of that.  I find it hard to coclude that the position is important to them and they just couldn't find anyone. 

 

 

 

They drafted Bernard. He isn't very good. He was their draft and develop plan. They whiffed. On David and Wagner they missed out on both. It is rumoured they offered David more than he got to stay in Tampa.

 

I am not at all convinced this was some plan. I don't think the evidence supports that. I think it supports they tried to have a replacement in the system and failed. They tried the FA route and failed. The draft didn't fall their way. And then they said we are going to go with what we have and hope we can coach it up. But I think we are on plan D not plan A.

 

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Z

I've been thinking about this.  They weren't willing to pay Edmunds, David or Wagner.  Thatsbpretty good evidence that the league in general values linebacker talent higher than the Bills do.  They paid the going rate for Miller and for Poyer and for Oliver and for Milano, but they aren't willing to pay for a MLB.  Seems pretty clear.  

 

They supposedly offered David more than he signed for. It was family reasons he took Tampa's offer.

 

I actually think Poyer is the guy who benefitted from them not landing a linebacker.

Edited August 18, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Brand J]

20 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I'm not saying "Bills had no chance" at all or even alluding to it.  

I brought up the other teams because it clearly seems that the offers/feeling wanted wasn't strong with them either.  

 

What I don't understand is you say "we don't know" basically in this recruiting process.  But without knowing, you've determined we didn't make him feel wanted enough and he absolutely could have had him.

 

This wasn’t conjecture. I got that from Lavonte who told Rich the Bills got involved late but by that time he had already made up his mind that he was going back to TB. That's a big difference between the Bills getting involved when he first hit the market and staying in constant contact with him. You know the player who fit that bill that they did land? Leonard Floyd. The “red carpet” doesn’t simply mean “money” it means making a free agent feel like he’s an absolute must for the team.

 

EDIT: My “we don’t know” was in reference to if Buffalo was involved from the beginning along with TB and which team would Lavonte choose in that situation if the money was exactly equal. I’d guess TB, but feeling wanted on a championship contender does go a long way.

Edited August 18, 2023 by JayBaller10

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

I'm not going to rehash all of this -- my opinion is my opinion and we'll see if the Bills' approach bites them -- but the underlined quote is meaningless. Players will always say they always wanted to be at the place they end up signing. You also conveniently left this out:

 

“I didn’t have no conversation with Von. Oh no,” David told Eisen. “If he would have reached out, it would have been a different conversation.”

Living in a fantasy world I see.  The Bills make decisions, the season will show which were good ones.

[Shaw66]

25 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They drafted Bernard. He isn't very good. He was their draft and develop plan. They whiffed. On David and Wagner they missed out on both. It is rumoured they offered David more than he got to stay in Tampa.

 

I am not at all convinced this was some plan. I don't think the evidence supports that. I think it supports they tried to have a replacement in the system and failed. They tried the FA route and failed. The draft didn't fall their way. And then they said we are going to go with what we have and hope we can coach it up. But I think we are on plan D not plan A.

 

 

They supposedly offered David more than he signed for. It was family reasons he took Tampa's offer.

 

I actually think Poyer is the guy who benefitted from them not landing a linebacker.

It is very unlike Beane, when faced with a hole in the lineup, to do NOTHING.   Bernard wasn't a plan.  Bernard was a shot in the dark, and they knew it.  

 

They traded up for Kincaid.  They traded up for Elam.   They didn't trade up for a linebacker.  

 

Yes, it's possible that everything they tried failed.   I don't think that's very likely.  I think it's much more likely that they allocated their resources thoughtfully and decided that inside linebacker was the position where they could best afford to sit tight.  

[Royale with Cheese]

28 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

This wasn’t conjecture. I got that from Lavonte who told Rich the Bills got involved late but by that time he had already made up his mind that he was going back to TB. That's a big difference between the Bills getting involved when he first hit the market and staying in constant contact with him. You know the player who fit that bill that they did land? Leonard Floyd. The “red carpet” doesn’t simply mean “money” it means making a free agent feel like he’s an absolute must for the team.

 

EDIT: My “we don’t know” was in reference to if Buffalo was involved from the beginning along with TB and which team would Lavonte choose in that situation if the money was exactly equal. I’d guess TB, but feeling wanted on a championship contender does go a long way.

 

Does that really make sense?  I mean, we signed this guy 3 months after the free agency started.  

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

It is very unlike Beane, when faced with a hole in the lineup, to do NOTHING.   Bernard wasn't a plan.  Bernard was a shot in the dark, and they knew it.  

 

They traded up for Kincaid.  They traded up for Elam.   They didn't trade up for a linebacker.  

 

Yes, it's possible that everything they tried failed.   I don't think that's very likely.  I think it's much more likely that they allocated their resources thoughtfully and decided that inside linebacker was the position where they could best afford to sit tight.  

 

I am sorry I totally disagree. I think they tried 3rd round pick a year out, a vet that took less to stay close to home in FA and then likely had a plan for this draft that didn't transpire. 

 

This is not plan A. This is make the best of what they have.