BillStime Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 34 minutes ago, SCBills said: Believe it or not… many blue collar democrats have an issue with welfare abuse. Do you think random iron worker in Pennsylvania that works long, grueling hours and comes home to a house he can barely afford is cool with people pretending to look for jobs, getting hired, getting fired etc., to game the system and use food stamps as a means of sustinence - as opposed to a helping hand to get back on their feet? Because it seems like that line is the one that’s got y’all worked up. “Obese milking welfare… taxes ought not pay for your bag of fudge rounds”. He’s right. Everything else about govt control, high taxes etc., is felt by everyone… except, apparently, modern day leftists that implicitly trust the govt. 👆🤡 Same people defending the Trump tax cuts for the rich, corporate America, turned themselves into pretzels defending forgiven PPP loans for the same people and outraged over student loan relief. You can’t make this up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, BillStime said: 👆🤡 Same people defending the Trump tax cuts for the rich, corporate America, turned themselves into pretzels defending forgiven PPP loans for the same people and outraged over student loan relief. You can’t make this up. “Rich Men North of Richmond” doesn’t exclusively apply to Democrats. The populist wing of the Republican Party… which it seems like this guy probably would be classified as.. takes issue with a ton of Republicans as well. Also.. Conflating PPP loans with student loans is extremely disingenuous. Was it abused, yes.. as any govt program will be.. however honest small biz owners were shut down by no fault of their own and in order to receive PPP funding, you had to retain every employee you received money for in order to obtain full PPP forgiveness. That money, for honest folks, went to overhead and employees. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, SCBills said: “Rich Men North of Richmond” doesn’t exclusively apply to Democrats. The populist wing of the Republican Party… which it seems like this guy probably would be classified as.. takes issue with a ton of Republicans as well. Also.. Conflating PPP loans with student loans is extremely disingenuous. Was it abused, yes.. as any govt program will be.. however honest small biz owners were shut down by no fault of their own and in order to receive PPP funding, you had to retain every employee you received money for in order to obtain full PPP forgiveness. That money, for honest folks, went to overhead and employees. 👆🤣 - millionaires for billionaires while also trying to stick up for the average Joe. Cute. Meanwhile, Trump fired the watchdog put in place to monitor the $2 TRILLION and guess what? $200 BILLION disappeared - imagine that. Tell us more about the random iron worker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, BillStime said: 👆🤣 - millionaires for billionaires while also trying to stick up for the average Joe. Cute. Meanwhile, Trump fired the watchdog put in place to monitor the $2 TRILLION and guess what? $200 BILLION disappeared - imagine that. Tell us more about the random iron worker. Sure, I will… Random iron worker struggles to get by as Biden shovels money over to Ukraine, while barely lifting a finger for Hawaii or East Palestine. Random iron worker sees his taxes eat away at his paycheck, for what?… govt bailouts, welfare abuse, foreign wars? Random iron worker has had the cost of living skyrocket under this presidency. Under Democrat rule, where they paid no mind to the ramifications of spending, while at the same time handicapping ourselves on the global stage by cutting back energy production. Random iron worker sees a government that cares more about illegal immigration they do the plight homeless veterans, let alone his own struggles. It’s no wonder random iron worker tilted the scales in the Rust Belt to elect Donald Trump in 2016 … a man, for all his many faults, at least spoke to them, not at them. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, SCBills said: Sure, I will… Random iron worker struggles to get by as Biden shovels money over to Ukraine, while barely lifting a finger for Hawaii or East Palestine. Random iron worker sees his taxes eat away at his paycheck, for what?… govt bailouts, welfare abuse, foreign wars? Random iron worker has had the cost of living skyrocket under this presidency. Under Democrat rule, where they paid no mind to the ramifications of spending, while at the same time handicapping ourselves on the global stage by cutting back energy production. Random iron worker sees a government that cares more about illegal immigration they do the plight homeless veterans, let alone his own struggles. It’s no wonder random iron worker tilted the scales in the Rust Belt to elect Donald Trump in 2016 … a man, for all his many faults, at least spoke to them, not at them. You mean to tell us Trump handed off an absolute economic nightmare to the next POTUS? Classic GQP - always relying on the Dems to clean up their mess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 Rich men up north 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SectionC3 Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 40 minutes ago, SCBills said: “Rich Men North of Richmond” doesn’t exclusively apply to Democrats. The populist wing of the Republican Party… which it seems like this guy probably would be classified as.. takes issue with a ton of Republicans as well. Also.. Conflating PPP loans with student loans is extremely disingenuous. Was it abused, yes.. as any govt program will be.. however honest small biz owners were shut down by no fault of their own and in order to receive PPP funding, you had to retain every employee you received money for in order to obtain full PPP forgiveness. That money, for honest folks, went to overhead and employees. Realistically I struggle to see how someone can be a populist Republican. The two are at odds. I don't have an issue with this song. Personally, I think it's a lot of whining, but he's entitled to whine. What makes me shake my head is that conservatives have seized upon as some sort of anthem. I don't know how the anti-capitalist tone in there meshes with the traditional view of the Republican Party about unions and the Trump tax cuts for the rich. Maybe conservatives like the parts about picking on fat people on welfare (a large number of whom are probably white Trumpers, anyway). I don't know. But a populist Republican is just someone who is confused. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, SectionC3 said: Realistically I struggle to see how someone can be a populist Republican. The two are at odds. I don't have an issue with this song. Personally, I think it's a lot of whining, but he's entitled to whine. What makes me shake my head is that conservatives have seized upon as some sort of anthem. I don't know how the anti-capitalist tone in there meshes with the traditional view of the Republican Party about unions and the Trump tax cuts for the rich. Maybe conservatives like the parts about picking on fat people on welfare (a large number of whom are probably white Trumpers, anyway). I don't know. But a populist Republican is just someone who is confused. It’s basically the Tucker Carlson wing of the party. -Nationalist -Distrust of Institutions -Freedom of Speech -Anti-War Given the fact Democrats have essentially become the party of consolidated power and elites, it’s no wonder there’s now a ton of crossover between former Bernie Bros and Tucker Carlson’s following. The populist right and populist left have plenty of common ideals that don’t align with establishment Democrats or establishment Republicans… specifically relating to war, speech and govt control. Edited August 19, 2023 by SCBills 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeskillitMoorman Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, SCBills said: Believe it or not… many blue collar democrats have an issue with welfare abuse. Do you think random iron worker in Pennsylvania that works long, grueling hours and comes home to a house he can barely afford is cool with people pretending to look for jobs, getting hired, getting fired etc., to game the system and use food stamps as a means of sustinence - as opposed to a helping hand to get back on their feet? Because it seems like that line is the one that’s got y’all worked up. “Obese milking welfare… taxes ought not pay for your bag of fudge rounds”. He’s right. Everything else about govt control, high taxes etc., is felt by everyone… except, apparently, modern day leftists that implicitly trust the govt. I personally have no issue with that part. I really don’t have an issue at all with the song, I agree with him on a lot of it. I would say though that it’s at least somewhat hypocritical from many Conservatives that they say they can feel and identify with him. Think about what he’s saying in the song…there is no such thing as “bull#### pay” if you believe in total free market capitalism. If you can’t get a raise from your employer and nobody else will pay you more…the free market has determined that what you’re getting paid is what your services are worth. He’s obviously talking about this along with welfare distribution and abuse and taxes. If it’s anyone who doesn’t imply that they believe in God or doesn’t look like they have “conservative values”, whatever that actually means, this is the rhetoric they would normally rail against and say it’s victimhood mentality and nobody’s oppressed and this guy just needs to shut up and work harder so he makes more money. So why is it different all of a sudden when it’s coming from this guy? Why aren’t the Jordan Peterson’s and Ben Shapiro’s slamming him for whining instead of doing better and making more money? I would say it would be a good thing if this brought some attention to the areas and populations that are really struggling so that we can hopefully do some things to help them. I mean I don’t want to evoke satanic Leftist demons here when I say this…but perhaps some of these people in rural areas who have trouble breaking the cycle of poverty are even…disadvantaged? I basically think hypocrisy is on both sides for this, as I usually do. The Left should actually like the message of this song if you’re going off of classical liberal standards and I would think it’s a positive for the Right if they actually let part of the message challenge their own beliefs. I still think outside of culture war stuff…both sides probably agree on a lot more than the hardcore Lefties and Righties think or want to admit. So much of this is just semantics. Edited August 19, 2023 by HomeskillitMoorman 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SectionC3 Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, SCBills said: It’s basically the Tucker Carlson wing of the party. -Nationalist -Distrust of Institutions -Freedom of Speech -Anti-War Given the fact Democrats have essentially become the party of consolidated power and elites, it’s no wonder there’s now a ton of crossover between former Bernie Bros and Tucker Carlson’s following. The populist right and populist left have plenty of common ideals that don’t align with establishment Democrats or establishment Republicans… specifically relating to war, speech and govt control. That’s sort of my point. Populists are their own thing. They aren’t really D or R now. Should have their own branding, too, for their own benefit. Probably would do well in a lot of elections, especially if they cut out the conspiracy theory nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanNC Posted August 20, 2023 Author Share Posted August 20, 2023 ⬆️ Hoax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Blitz Posted August 20, 2023 Share Posted August 20, 2023 But Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurmal34 Posted August 20, 2023 Share Posted August 20, 2023 Why didn’t any of you white #######s react this way to ***** the Police? It’s the SAME song. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted August 20, 2023 Share Posted August 20, 2023 13 hours ago, Thurmal34 said: Back in the real world. Oliver Anthony's Response to His Song Going Viral Shows He's the Real Deal https://redstate.com/nick-arama/2023/08/20/oliver-anthony-is-the-real-deal-n2162826 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 20, 2023 Share Posted August 20, 2023 I have nothing against this guy. I even kind of agree with the general sentiment about out-of-touch Washington politicians. But it is fair to call him out for seeming to blame his (previously) dire economic situation on what Reagan called "welfare queens." Dude says he dropped out of high school at 17. Worked tedious/dangerous jobs for a while. Obviously tried on the side to be a singer/songwriter. Now roughly 30 years old (even Wikipedia doesn't seem to know for sure). In other words, kind of the typical millennial people roll their eyes at when it's a liberal woman ("I want to be a writer, but it's hard and so I've had a bunch of dead end short term jobs and now they're gonna make me start paying back my student loans!) In other words, until a week-and-a-half ago a classic Millennial Failure to Launch. Nobody's fault but his own. Congrats to him, he won the Country Singer/Songwriter Lottery. Now take that $8 million someone is waving at you, but don't sign till you get a good lawyer and financial advisor. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanNC Posted August 21, 2023 Author Share Posted August 21, 2023 The marxists, of course, ignore this key part of the song. The song isn’t simply a class-war complaint — the trouble with the rich men north of Richmond isn’t that they’re rich, it’s that “they all just wanna have total control / Wanna know what you think, wanna know what you do.” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 (edited) On 8/19/2023 at 4:35 PM, HomeskillitMoorman said: but perhaps some of these people in rural areas who have trouble breaking the cycle of poverty are even…disadvantaged? First, this is the Republican party in name only. The R party is dead, for now. We need two reasonable parties for things to run right. We don't have them. Yes, they are disadvantaged. By their circumstances and genetics. But some deficiencies are self inflicted. There's a saying in the south: Don't rise above your raising. I believe it was in Sen Vance's book and the sentiment was well represented in "Million dollar baby". Tells you all you need to know. A caricature but sadly too close to reality for some: Edited August 21, 2023 by Joe Ferguson forever 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said: The marxists, of course, ignore this key part of the song. The song isn’t simply a class-war complaint — the trouble with the rich men north of Richmond isn’t that they’re rich, it’s that “they all just wanna have total control / Wanna know what you think, wanna know what you do.” Nobody cares what they know or think or even do, as long as it's legal or doesn't adversely affect society (eg vaccines).. That's why trump is so appealing. He pretends to.... Edited August 21, 2023 by Joe Ferguson forever 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 The info we have on this insta-star says that he dreams of being a cattle rancher. It's good to have dreams. But if you want to be a cattle rancher, well, come on out here to the great empty quarter of the country and work on a cattle ranch. Learn the trade. Work your way up. I know people who've done this. They are immigrants from Mexico. They now live pretty well. Nobody gave them a damn thing. Ain't no 5'3" 300 lb welfare queen stopping you from doing it. Calling bs on that part of the backstory. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanNC Posted August 21, 2023 Author Share Posted August 21, 2023 ⬆️ Like these... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 (edited) On 8/19/2023 at 2:42 PM, SectionC3 said: That’s sort of my point. Populists are their own thing. They aren’t really D or R now. Should have their own branding, too, for their own benefit. Probably would do well in a lot of elections, especially if they cut out the conspiracy theory nonsense. And yet, here we are with our 2 party system. I think you're comparing the theme of the song to, what, a classical definition of an R? We haven't had that for a very long time, really? Nor have we had a classical definition of a D, or a liberal. The folks that might still be true to these classical definitions are certainly in that party, but they really aren't representative of the overall themes or policies of that party. There is s no such thing as purity, in that sense, any longer. People and the world is much more complicated than that. Personally, I embrace positions in both parties; I think both parties are both wrong on certain issues; and I think both parties are probably both right on certain issues. I believe, more and more everyday, that my most significant issues with our current system is between the DC elite and us common folks. The elite do a whole lot of yelling, kicking and screaming at each other, yet when push comes to shove, they do what keeps us common folks under their collective control. Edited August 21, 2023 by Pokebball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 Rich men up north 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, BillStime said: Rich men up north Yes, but somehow the trumps and koch's are immune from the label "elites". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cle23 Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 On 8/11/2023 at 10:50 AM, SCBills said: Amazing song. And while I don’t support him in the primary, if people want to know why Trump has such a die hard following… it’s because I guarantee you that song speaks to his followers more than anyone. People who, rightly or wrongly, perceive this country as moving to a place where they are low man on the totem pole, barely getting by, as their government tells them to go **** themselves. I like the song, and the message overall. What I don't understand is how anyone who supports Trump could think this relates to Trump as all? The dude has been mega rich his entire life, even well before his "self made" billions. The song is as much about Trump as it is Biden or any other politician in DC. The message of the song is true, and the guy has talent for sure. But to immediately associate it with Trump supporters makes little sense. The current country was created by people just like Trump, and just like all the other politicians in DC. And everyone, not just Trump supporters, is feeling the effects of 50+ years of garage politics. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, cle23 said: I like the song, and the message overall. What I don't understand is how anyone who supports Trump could think this relates to Trump as all? The dude has been mega rich his entire life, even well before his "self made" billions. The song is as much about Trump as it is Biden or any other politician in DC. The message of the song is true, and the guy has talent for sure. But to immediately associate it with Trump supporters makes little sense. The current country was created by people just like Trump, and just like all the other politicians in DC. And everyone, not just Trump supporters, is feeling the effects of 50+ years of garage politics. True, but the people buying this recording are largely trumpers. That's why it is associated with him. As to the rest: Campaign finance and election reform. That's what we should all be fighting for but are so easily distracted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 9 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: Yes, but somehow the trumps and koch's are immune from the label "elites". You think? They're not in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, Pokebball said: You think? They're not in my opinion Ok then. How bout tucker carlson? Edited August 21, 2023 by Joe Ferguson forever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanNC Posted August 21, 2023 Author Share Posted August 21, 2023 Trump is most definitely an elite. He is most definitely NOT a Washington elite north of Richmond. He isn't in their club. See multiple idictments criminalizing political apeech. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said: He is most definitely NOT a Washington elite north of Richmond. Oh really? https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/jared-kushners-deal-making-career-off-to-sluggish-start-d245fea8 Jared Kushner set up last year at Tel Aviv’s Hilton Hotel overlooking the Mediterranean Sea, aiming to spend some of the $3 billion that Gulf nations had pledged for him to invest. For five days, Kushner and his team at Affinity Partners listened to pitches from promising Israeli companies hoping to secure funding from the former White House senior adviser, who is also former President Donald Trump’s son-in-law. Kushner had raised the money from Saudi, Emirati and Qatari investors, after presenting himself as a unique business leader able to bridge the region’s economic and cultural divides. To that end, he had secured unique approval from Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman to invest the kingdom’s money in the Jewish nation for the first time. Kushner left Tel Aviv last spring without writing any checks. *** Kushner’s post-White House work has drawn scrutiny from some in Congress who question whether the business arrangement is a Saudi reward for all the work Kushner did in government to advance the kingdom’s interests in Washington. The Trump Tower is also North of Richmond. But Oliver may want to take a southward look too, toward Palm Beach. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cle23 Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 12 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said: Trump is most definitely an elite. He is most definitely NOT a Washington elite north of Richmond. He isn't in their club. See multiple idictments criminalizing political apeech. Trump chanted for years to "Lock her up." He is all on board with the Biden "corruption." He would is trying to push the same narrative on his opponents that he complains about happening to himself. And just to clarify, anyone committing crime, fraud, tax evasion, corruption, etc. should be tried and convicted if the evidence is shown, regardless of party. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 22 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: Ok then. How bout tucker carlson? Tucker feeds off of the dynamic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Pokebball said: Tucker feeds off of the dynamic. what dynamic? That he's an elite who is capitalizing on stupidity? Pretty common occurrence among R leaders. Edited August 21, 2023 by Joe Ferguson forever 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 20 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said: Trump is most definitely an elite. He is most definitely NOT a Washington elite north of Richmond. He isn't in their club. See multiple idictments criminalizing political apeech. 👆🤡🤣 JFC - Look at these idiots turn themselves into pretzels trying to convince THEMSLVES that Conald is not an elite north of Richmond - lmao Remember when Trump told us the White House was a dump? And you freaks cheer him on. LINK: https://golf.com/lifestyle/celebrities/first-golfer-donald-trumps-relationship-with-golf-has-never-been-more-complicated/ GTFOH - TDS is strong with these nutters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 Just now, Joe Ferguson forever said: what dynamic? That he's an elite who is capitalizing on stupidity? The dynamic between the elite and the non elite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 31 minutes ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: Ok then. How bout tucker carlson? Notice how these insecure freaks all need a superhero because the one they have isn't exactly super? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Pokebball said: The dynamic between the elite and the non elite So ole tuck is not an elite? He still wears a club tie but I think he ditched the bowtie...Still into fly fishing. Who knows if his kids are in equestrian events. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pokebball Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 Just now, Joe Ferguson forever said: So ole tuck is not an elite? He still wears a club tie but I think he ditched the bowtie...Still into fly fishing. Who knows if his kids are in equestrian events. He needs the elite to make his living. Without the elite, he wouldn't have a gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, Pokebball said: He needs the elite to make his living. Without the elite, he wouldn't have a gig. Exactly - millionaires for billionaires. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 Back to the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 Let's get away from the name calling. What could we, as a country, have done to help Oliver Anthony succeed in life? - Education. He dropped out of school at 17. Why? Were the schools bad? Was he unmotivated? Not terribly bright? All of the above? - Job Training. He says he wanted to be a cattle rancher. That's like me wanting to be a MLB player when I was a kid. I don't know of any job training we could have for that. He could've moved to a ranch out west and started to learn the trade from the bottom up. He didn't. He stayed in Virginia and NC working at a dead-end factory job. - That factory job: I don't disagree with him here. This is the source of a lot of frustration in the country. My old Buffalo relatives had factory jobs. They were hard. They sometimes got injured. But they bought homes with money from those jobs and entered the solid middle class. That doesn't seem possible today. I see the lefty songwriter Billy Bragg says the best thing to do is organize a union. And yes, that was a difference between then and now. My old relatives were unionized. But there also wasn't the constant threat of moving the factory overseas. Protectionism + unions? Do we want to go back to that? I don't since it seems kind of stopgap/temporary. And I doubt young Oliver would've been happy even if he'd been making a living wage in a soul destroying job. The one thing I know: welfare payments to someone else weren't the cause of his plight. That's envy, not a cause. Maybe he wanted welfare payments too. Why should anyone get them if they're able bodied and can work for a living? I understand the frustration, but frustration at someone else who's better at gaming the system isn't a cure for your pain. So ... what would all the Oliver Anthony's do if they replaced those Rich Men North of Richmond? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts