To Have, and To Have Not: a Midwestern Tale

[Beck Water]

So here I am, sitting comfortably on a sofa with a light breeze from a Dyson airblade fan.  I don’t have any lights on at the moment, but that’s a matter of choice.  There’s gray daylight coming in the window behind me.  I could reach out and flip a switch and say “Let There Be Light”, and there would be.

 

A line of thunderstorms came through about 4 pm.  I don’t recall it being forecast, but there it was, rain blowing sideways, light show, boom boom *click*

 

Across the street: power.  Our side, Us, neighbors, and a couple hundred of our closest friends on a different feed: Nope.

 

Here’s the Facts of Life in the Midwest: when a couple hundred thousand of your closest friends lose power, the power company will remedy the big outages first and a small outage of a few hundred can just pound sand until the power company gets a Round Tuit, maybe for a day or two or three or four, depending.

 

We don’t have the fancy-pants option, but we are prepared.  We hauled out the inverter generators, fueled them up, plugged them into the handy-dandy twist-lock exterior outlet, did some jiggery pokery on the electrical panel, flipped some breakers back on, and Voila!  Our modem and router work, our fridge and freezer have power, our i-devices can be re-charged, we can use the igniter and turn on our gas stove.  And I can sit in front of a fan, or under a ceiling fan, and turn on an LED light or two if I feel like it.

 

So now we start looking out the window.  Neighbor we share resources with has a generator, but it isn’t working.  Extension cord for her fridge: no problem.  She’s got a modern one, 400W.  If this goes on pushing 24 hrs, we’ll figure out how to rotate her chest freezer and ours so they both stay cool.  

 

70 year old neighbor: the woman is a Machine.  Drives around all day in a Sprinter van, 100 degree heat, doesn’t matter, delivering furniture and food to people in need, women getting an apartment after a stint in DV shelters, folks who’ve been burnt out and the like.  Yeah, we’re gonna see her right.  What’s the draw on her fridge, can we handle it without rotating stuff?  Yeah, we can, and we got 100 ft of 12 AWG extension cord that will get most of the way to her door.

 

But behind that….we don’t have the capacity.  Thw neighbor on the other side, who hasn’t had much to do with us since the Great Squirrel LIberation Excapade, I’d let her use my stove or recharge a battery pack so she can charge her phone and stuff, but her fridge is strictly On It’s Own.  

 

So here we are, To Have and To Have Not, Midwestern Style.  

 

I can make a difference to us, and a couple neighbors, but I know there are a bunch of families who can’t afford it who are gonna lose a fridge full of food, and there’s just not much I can do about that.

[SinceThe70s]

Not to make light of extended power outages but if you don't have a generator then you're probably eating pretty good for a few days. When it comes down to deciding between the steaks or the hot dogs it's an easy choice.

 

All the best to you and your neighbors, hope your power is restored sooner rather than later.

 

[Beck Water]

35 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

Not to make light of extended power outages but if you don't have a generator then you're probably eating pretty good for a few days. When it comes down to deciding between the steaks or the hot dogs it's an easy choice.

 

All the best to you and your neighbors, hope your power is restored sooner rather than later.

 

 

Yeah, the slightly humorous thing is that another neighbor across the street was having freezer problems and came over with a big pan of frozen food to fit in our freezer.  Said they were gonna toss the hot dogs and cook up all the steak.

[boyst]

Whole house generators are worth it. They're fairly affordable, compared to years past.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

So here I am, sitting comfortably on a sofa with a light breeze from a Dyson airblade fan.  I don’t have any lights on at the moment, but that’s a matter of choice.  There’s gray daylight coming in the window behind me.  I could reach out and flip a switch and say “Let There Be Light”, and there would be.

 

A line of thunderstorms came through about 4 pm.  I don’t recall it being forecast, but there it was, rain blowing sideways, light show, boom boom *click*

 

Across the street: power.  Our side, Us, neighbors, and a couple hundred of our closest friends on a different feed: Nope.

 

Here’s the Facts of Life in the Midwest: when a couple hundred thousand of your closest friends lose power, the power company will remedy the big outages first and a small outage of a few hundred can just pound sand until the power company gets a Round Tuit, maybe for a day or two or three or four, depending.

 

We don’t have the fancy-pants option, but we are prepared.  We hauled out the inverter generators, fueled them up, plugged them into the handy-dandy twist-lock exterior outlet, did some jiggery pokery on the electrical panel, flipped some breakers back on, and Voila!  Our modem and router work, our fridge and freezer have power, our i-devices can be re-charged, we can use the igniter and turn on our gas stove.  And I can sit in front of a fan, or under a ceiling fan, and turn on an LED light or two if I feel like it.

 

So now we start looking out the window.  Neighbor we share resources with has a generator, but it isn’t working.  Extension cord for her fridge: no problem.  She’s got a modern one, 400W.  If this goes on pushing 24 hrs, we’ll figure out how to rotate her chest freezer and ours so they both stay cool.  

 

70 year old neighbor: the woman is a Machine.  Drives around all day in a Sprinter van, 100 degree heat, doesn’t matter, delivering furniture and food to people in need, women getting an apartment after a stint in DV shelters, folks who’ve been burnt out and the like.  Yeah, we’re gonna see her right.  What’s the draw on her fridge, can we handle it without rotating stuff?  Yeah, we can, and we got 100 ft of 12 AWG extension cord that will get most of the way to her door.

 

But behind that….we don’t have the capacity.  Thw neighbor on the other side, who hasn’t had much to do with us since the Great Squirrel LIberation Excapade, I’d let her use my stove or recharge a battery pack so she can charge her phone and stuff, but her fridge is strictly On It’s Own.  

 

So here we are, To Have and To Have Not, Midwestern Style.  

 

I can make a difference to us, and a couple neighbors, but I know there are a bunch of families who can’t afford it who are gonna lose a fridge full of food, and there’s just not much I can do about that.

I got a quote on a solar generator and it was high.  We've got a big propane tank underground and I think we'll go with an LP generator.  Guy who quoted did the math for me fairly and I think I'll die before I recoup the cost.  But the reliability of solar is appealing.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, boyst said:

Whole house generators are worth it. They're fairly affordable, compared to years past.

 

I guess it depends upon what one calls “affordable”, how often one needs them, and how much stuff there is to run.

What we have isn’t as nice in that it requires some (OK, significant by most people’s standards) setup.  But it was literally a fraction of what the whole house generators we priced would have been.

1 hour ago, redtail hawk said:

I got a quote on a solar generator and it was high.  We've got a big propane tank underground and I think we'll go with an LP generator.  Guy who quoted did the math for me fairly and I think I'll die before I recoup the cost.  But the reliability of solar is appealing.

 

I would love solar, but we just aren’t sited for it.  Plus, around here usually when the power goes out, there is none for at least a while, sometimes a day or more.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

4 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

I would love solar, but we just aren’t sited for it.  Plus, around here usually when the power goes out, there is none for at least a while, sometimes a day or more.

We have underground power cables in our neighborhood.  Very occasionally lose power.  Should be standard practice for power co's.  As far as cost comparison, right now, here, it's significantly cheaper to use propane.  that could change.  haven't pulled the trigger.  Would be cool if they made a generator that could run solar and another fuel.  Don't believe it exists.

[CookieG]

Also in the Midwest (KS).

Also, my power went out yesterday.  My situation was/is different.  In our case, a limb fell on a power line and broke the line, as well as a part of the pole.

 

Since I live in a city...I got a text from the power company saying the power was out (yes, I already knew), with an estimated time of repair.

A guy from the power company came by within a half hour to assess the damage. He told me he'd have to call a crew.

 

This happened at 4pm.  Estimated time for repair was about 2 hours.

 

Problem, it was 105 yesterday at 4, with a heat index of 110. It wasn't getting cooler anytime soon.

I could just leave the house for somewhere, anywhere, with AC.  That was the advice I gave to my 70 year old neighbor. 

Problem 2, I have a dog and 2 cats.  Going somewhere without them wasn't really an option unless I could take them.  Filled their water dishes, added ice cubes and had the house buttoned up.  Like in cold, in extreme heat, keeping doors and windows closed is the best you can do, for a while.  The house is only insulated so well, attic insulation is ok. but none in the walls.

 

As 6 pm rolled around, no repair trucks around.  Ran to the hardware store to find some battery operated fans.  ( after thinking to myself , Ill turn on a fan....after making some microwave popcorn, lol).

 

Went through options in my head, in case they wouldn't be working that night.  The basement, a few friends that would put up with my pets, etc. The last resort would have been getting a hotel room that took pets for the night.

 

The house did get warmer, but it was still tolerable when they got the power back on at 7:30. 

 

I've considered a generator in the past or a solar with a battery back up.  Here, the generator would have to be big enough to at least run a window AC unit.  you can always run a window AC in one room and keep the door closed.

 

Being in Kansas, I'd do a wind turbine, but houses are too close together and trees are too high.

 

But power outages for me aren't common and the power is usually on pretty quick when it does.  Last year, power went out 3 times in one week, due to squirrels.

Each time, power was on in an hour or less.  The Evergy guy just takes a telescopic pole and flicks the breaker on the pole.

 

That's the B word about heat.  In cold, you can always put on extra clothes.  If needed, you can install a wood stove or a ventless gas fireplace.

 

In heat, you can only take off so many layers.

[sherpa]

After quite a few outages over the years, and getting by with small but powerful generators, we installed a 23kw whole house generator a couple years ago.

Total cost was a bit less than $10K, which included the generator, lp hookup and electrical service transfer panel. I used different guys for the lp hookup and service panel work, and total cost was considerably less than going with a generator company for the entire project.

 

Happy wife happy life. 

 

By the way, having your home service underground, as our is, is no insurance against the grid that supplies the power to the underground point.

Edited July 30, 2023 by sherpa

[Wacka]

Back in March 1976, most of WNY had no power for a week, some for 2 weeks from an ice storm. We were dark for a week. Generators were almost non-existant. Luckily in my parents bedroom on the second  floor, they had installed a  gas wall furnace.  We (parents and us 3 kids) lived up there for the week. When my dad went to use the bathroom, we would all line up to follow him after he warmed up the seat 😀. He would open the oven door and turn on the gas to warm up the downstairs a little. Of course ha would turn ir off after we were al done.

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 hour ago, Wacka said:

Back in March 1976, most of WNY had no power for a week, some for 2 weeks from an ice storm. We were dark for a week. Generators were almost non-existant. Luckily in my parents bedroom on the second  floor, they had installed a  gas wall furnace.  We (parents and us 3 kids) lived up there for the week. When my dad went to use the bathroom, we would all line up to follow him after he warmed up the seat 😀. He would open the oven door and turn on the gas to warm up the downstairs a little. Of course ha would turn ir off after we were al done.

My inlaws and now my mother inlaw still use the oven to warm up the kitchen... /smdh... AND my father inlaw was a welder for NationalFuel! 

 

¡Ay, caramba!

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, sherpa said:

After quite a few outages over the years, and getting by with small but powerful generators, we installed a 23kw whole house generator a couple years ago.

Total cost was a bit less than $10K, which included the generator, lp hookup and electrical service transfer panel. I used different guys for the lp hookup and service panel work, and total cost was considerably less than going with a generator company for the entire project.

 

Happy wife happy life. 

 

By the way, having your home service underground, as our is, is no insurance against the grid that supplies the power to the underground point.

 

That's a good tip to serve as your own general contractor to save money.

 

Just as a point of reference, our 2- 2000W inverter generators plus the installation of the external plug for them, and an interlock and power-on alarm for the service panel, cost ~$2,000 or 1/5 that amount.  These days we could get a lot more generator power for that money!

 

These are sized to run our refrigerators and chest freezer, the power to both our gas furnaces in the winter, the igniters for our gas stovetop, to keep the UPS for our computer, modem, and router charged, plus incidentals like fans, lights and power packs.  We can also power refrigerators for several neighbors.  We aren't going to be luxuriating in AC'd comfort, but with the help of old-fashioned tricks about where to locate an exhaust fan at night and how to use ice bottles to make the air from a fan cool, we're comfortable and have food/cooking/heat/light.

 

These days, you can get 9000W of ordinary generator for $900 or ~8000W of inverter generator for $1200.  1800W ordinary generator for $370. 

The interlock and external power plug make the whole setup much more seamless and useful, call it another $300-400 if you find a licensed electrician who's doing small jobs off hours for extra cash.  We could have DIY'd it but since it's an obvious mod to the power panel we wanted it all above board in case we need electrical work or a home inspection.

 

I feel this is worth mentioning because we're into self-reliance, and I want people to know that with a bit of sweat equity they can be prepared not just to maintain their own "necessities" of modern life, but to help neighbors during a power outage or disaster.  $10k is beyond the reach of a lot of people, but ~$30/month for a couple of years is more within reach for a lot more people.

I'm not sure what it is with our location, but it's not uncommon for the power on my side of the street to go out and stay out for 6 hrs to days, while the power across the street stays on.  We lucked out last night, our power was only off for 6.5 hrs because it was a more widespread outage including a bunch of commercial customers.  When it's just our block and the houses across the alley from us, we've been out for days at times.

 

 

2 hours ago, Wacka said:

Back in March 1976, most of WNY had no power for a week, some for 2 weeks from an ice storm. We were dark for a week. Generators were almost non-existant. Luckily in my parents bedroom on the second  floor, they had installed a  gas wall furnace.  We (parents and us 3 kids) lived up there for the week. When my dad went to use the bathroom, we would all line up to follow him after he warmed up the seat 😀. He would open the oven door and turn on the gas to warm up the downstairs a little. Of course ha would turn ir off after we were al done.

 

Wasn't that '77?  I was living in Buffalo at the time.  I remember the Blizzard of '77, but I don't remember being without power for weeks in '76.  Strange.

[Beck Water]

9 hours ago, CookieG said:

Also in the Midwest (KS).

Also, my power went out yesterday.  My situation was/is different.  In our case, a limb fell on a power line and broke the line, as well as a part of the pole.

 

Since I live in a city...I got a text from the power company saying the power was out (yes, I already knew), with an estimated time of repair.

A guy from the power company came by within a half hour to assess the damage. He told me he'd have to call a crew.

 

This happened at 4pm.  Estimated time for repair was about 2 hours.

 

Problem, it was 105 yesterday at 4, with a heat index of 110. It wasn't getting cooler anytime soon.

I could just leave the house for somewhere, anywhere, with AC.  That was the advice I gave to my 70 year old neighbor. 

Problem 2, I have a dog and 2 cats.  Going somewhere without them wasn't really an option unless I could take them.  Filled their water dishes, added ice cubes and had the house buttoned up.  Like in cold, in extreme heat, keeping doors and windows closed is the best you can do, for a while.  The house is only insulated so well, attic insulation is ok. but none in the walls.

 

As 6 pm rolled around, no repair trucks around.  Ran to the hardware store to find some battery operated fans.  ( after thinking to myself , Ill turn on a fan....after making some microwave popcorn, lol).

 

Went through options in my head, in case they wouldn't be working that night.  The basement, a few friends that would put up with my pets, etc. The last resort would have been getting a hotel room that took pets for the night.

 

The house did get warmer, but it was still tolerable when they got the power back on at 7:30. 

 

I've considered a generator in the past or a solar with a battery back up.  Here, the generator would have to be big enough to at least run a window AC unit.  you can always run a window AC in one room and keep the door closed.

 

Being in Kansas, I'd do a wind turbine, but houses are too close together and trees are too high.

 

But power outages for me aren't common and the power is usually on pretty quick when it does.  Last year, power went out 3 times in one week, due to squirrels.

Each time, power was on in an hour or less.  The Evergy guy just takes a telescopic pole and flicks the breaker on the pole.

 

That's the B word about heat.  In cold, you can always put on extra clothes.  If needed, you can install a wood stove or a ventless gas fireplace.

 

In heat, you can only take off so many layers.

 

Heh.  We live in a smaller city adjacent to the StL city line.  We did not get a text, nor did we get an estimated time of repair.  Our power went out at 4 pm and was out 6.5 hrs.  The power in my mom's Sr Living facility went out at 7 pm and is still out, but they do have generators keeping their elevators and kitchen running and their lobby cool, so she's OK

 

I'm glad power outages for you aren't common and on pretty quick.  Across the state in the Lou, we don't count on that.  When there are literally hundreds of outages affecting hundreds of thousands of customers, we know the crews are working full-go and it's still going to take a while, so we just settle in and wait.

 

The problem with cold for a home is, unless you immediately winterize your plumbing, eventually your pipes will freeze and that can take months to put right and repair.  That's why, even though we're experienced winter campers in the Adirondacks and have plenty of quilts and warm clothes, we have generators that will run the igniters for our furnaces.  I'm not concerned about keeping my franny warm, I can pick up an ax and attack my neighbor's woodpile for that, she won't complain LOL.  I'm concerned about avoiding thousands of dollars in plumbing and wall repairs and waiting for months to get the repairs done if it's a widespread problem.

[Wacka]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

Wasn't that '77?  I was living in Buffalo at the time.  I remember the Blizzard of '77, but I don't remember being without power for weeks in '76.  Strange.

It was '76. 

I worked at my first job then.  It was the year before the Blizzard of '77.

[ExiledInIllinois]

57 minutes ago, Wacka said:

It was '76. 

I worked at my first job then.  It was the year before the Blizzard of '77.

Yup! Early March '76 was ice storm. I remember that better than Blizzard. I was only 8 in '76. I remember '78. We were stuck in school bus... BUT Blizzard is a distant 3rd. Probably because basement was on verge of flooding in '76...

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Wacka said:

It was '76. 

I worked at my first job then.  It was the year before the Blizzard of '77.

 

We musta been the lucky part of WNY

[Beck Water]

18 hours ago, SinceThe70s said:

Not to make light of extended power outages but if you don't have a generator then you're probably eating pretty good for a few days. When it comes down to deciding between the steaks or the hot dogs it's an easy choice.

 

All the best to you and your neighbors, hope your power is restored sooner rather than later.

 

 

Thanks for the good wishes.  We're down to about 25,000 customers without power.  Unfortunately my mom's building is still among them, with no restart time estimate as of yet.  But the building has emergency generators running some services - the kitchen, AC in the lobby and dining room, the elevators.  So the residents can go down to the dining room for meals or the lobby to get cool - AND the fridge circuits are on emergency power so her fridge is apparently still good!

 

The problem with the "probably eating good for a few days" is, hopefully you got a propane grill or charcoal or something 'cuz if you don't have a generator, more likely than not your stove isn't working. 

 

Modern gas stoves have a valve in each burner that won't open the gas flow unless there's power to the ignitor - as opposed to the older gas stoves where you could turn the knob and use a match.  Safety first, but sometimes it does decrease some utility.

[CookieG]

12 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Heh.  We live in a smaller city adjacent to the StL city line.  We did not get a text, nor did we get an estimated time of repair.  Our power went out at 4 pm and was out 6.5 hrs.  The power in my mom's Sr Living facility went out at 7 pm and is still out, but they do have generators keeping their elevators and kitchen running and their lobby cool, so she's OK

 

I'm glad power outages for you aren't common and on pretty quick.  Across the state in the Lou, we don't count on that.  When there are literally hundreds of outages affecting hundreds of thousands of customers, we know the crews are working full-go and it's still going to take a while, so we just settle in and wait.

 

The problem with cold for a home is, unless you immediately winterize your plumbing, eventually your pipes will freeze and that can take months to put right and repair.  That's why, even though we're experienced winter campers in the Adirondacks and have plenty of quilts and warm clothes, we have generators that will run the igniters for our furnaces.  I'm not concerned about keeping my franny warm, I can pick up an ax and attack my neighbor's woodpile for that, she won't complain LOL.  I'm concerned about avoiding thousands of dollars in plumbing and wall repairs and waiting for months to get the repairs done if it's a widespread problem.

I can understand about the freezing pipes. As hot as it gets here, it can get cold too.  It can get as low as -25 in winter.  I do have the pipes in the basement wrapped, and put covers on the outdoor faucets..Idk if that does any good.  During a deep freeze run I the water on each faucet intermittently or leave it at a trickle. The lady Im seeing....they had to redo their Xmas Eve plans last year.  The hostess (her niece) had her pipes freeze the day before..water everywhere I guess.

 

Where I live, water mains are the problem. The city's water grid is about 100 years old, clay pipes, and they break cosntantly in extreme heat or cold.  In a three block area on my street, they've broken about 8 times in the past 5 years.  I understand the problem.

But last year, they had a resurfacing project for my neighborhood.

 

Asphalt and concrete were torn up, down to the base soil. but while they were doing all that..for the life of me, I don't know why they didn't just replace the water main.  Within 2 months of finishing the project on my street, we had 2 more breaks. 

 

And frankly, the condition of the surface of my street wasn't that bad. 

 

But when we have a break and I run to the store for water, I always put a few gallons on some of the neighbors front steps.  You do need water for morning coffee and teeth brushing.

 

 

[Just Jack]

43 minutes ago, CookieG said:

Where I live, water mains are the problem. The city's water grid is about 100 years old, clay pipes, and they break cosntantly in extreme heat or cold.  In a three block area on my street, they've broken about 8 times in the past 5 years.  I understand the problem.

But last year, they had a resurfacing project for my neighborhood.

 

Asphalt and concrete were torn up, down to the base soil. but while they were doing all that..for the life of me, I don't know why they didn't just replace the water main.  Within 2 months of finishing the project on my street, we had 2 more breaks. 

 

Here in Syracuse they've been doing a program where they've plotted out certain streets to replace the main water pipes.  But at the same time, they also replace/update all utilities, to cut down on future repairs.  The streets stay dug up longer, but now they know exactly where everything is under that street once they are finished.  

 

 

And I remember seeing a newspaper photo back in 1997 or 1998 from the Watertown NY ice storm. There was a city street where one side had power and the other did not.  What neighbors did was run extension cords to the house directly across from each other.  

[Fleezoid]

Ahhhh, the good ole days when neighbors took care of each other. I remember when houses were built with front porches. Now, it seems that all houses are built with small front entry-ways and big back yard patios so everyone has privacy and can isolate from the neighborhood. 

[Terry Tate]

On 7/29/2023 at 7:52 PM, Beck Water said:

We don’t have the fancy-pants option, but we are prepared.  We hauled out the inverter generators, fueled them up, plugged them into the handy-dandy twist-lock exterior outlet, did some jiggery pokery on the electrical panel, flipped some breakers back on, and Voila!  Our modem and router work, our fridge and freezer have power, our i-devices can be re-charged, we can use the igniter and turn on our gas stove.  And I can sit in front of a fan, or under a ceiling fan, and turn on an LED light or two if I feel like it.

It sounds like you went through the trouble to set this up properly. Having a little experience with power outages in FL, I would just like to caution people about DIYing this type of setup. You can set this up pretty easily with a portable generator, but please consider:
- line workers will be in danger if they assume a line is without power, but it is live due to power backfeed flowing from your house. You need to ensure your house is disconnected from the power lines.
- Being able to throw a light switch or turn on a fan is awesome, but be careful with turning on major appliances (let alone AC/Heat). Your generator may not be able to provide as stable/consistent power as line power, and major appliances could be damaged. You have to make sure the generator output is able to handle what demands you place on it. There's a reason whole house generators are more expensive than the standard portables.

[teef]

it's weird how the grids run.  when we had the ice storm back the 90s, our entire street lost power for about a week.  two houses only lost if for about 6 hours. our house and our neighbors house...mostly due to timing of the builds, grid, etc.  one neighbor even implied to the other that these two houses were the only ones with power because we were the italians on the street. that was actually said.

 

 

i'd love a full house generator.  it's the only thing we're missing.  the issue is my house is on all electric.  we're grandfathered into a grid that gets amazingly cheap electric.  we have a small propane tank to run fireplaces and stoves, but i don't think it's worth burying a huge tank, filling it, etc.   we haven't lost power in the 8 years we lived there, but ya never know.  i honestly didn't know there were solar generators.  i can't imagine they look nice, but i'll look into them.

[Beck Water]

On 7/31/2023 at 12:00 AM, Just Jack said:

 

Here in Syracuse they've been doing a program where they've plotted out certain streets to replace the main water pipes.  But at the same time, they also replace/update all utilities, to cut down on future repairs.  The streets stay dug up longer, but now they know exactly where everything is under that street once they are finished.  

 

 

And I remember seeing a newspaper photo back in 1997 or 1998 from the Watertown NY ice storm. There was a city street where one side had power and the other did not.  What neighbors did was run extension cords to the house directly across from each other.  

 

We've joked about that, actually.

[Beck Water]

37 minutes ago, Terry Tate said:

It sounds like you went through the trouble to set this up properly.

 

Yes

You raise a number of valid concerns that are important to make people aware of.

I don't want to sound like I'm minimizing them, but it's also important to me for folks to understand that this is really pretty straightforward to address.  I don't want people to feel that it's "whole house generator or bad idea" when it comes to emergency preparedness.

 

37 minutes ago, Terry Tate said:

Having a little experience with power outages in FL, I would just like to caution people about DIYing this type of setup. You can set this up pretty easily with a portable generator, but please consider:

- line workers will be in danger if they assume a line is without power, but it is live due to power backfeed flowing from your house. You need to ensure your

house is disconnected from the power lines.

 

Agreed feeding power from a generator into the power panel could be a potential danger to power workers if the mains to the panel are not shut off.  That's the whole point of installing an interlock switch and a mains power alarm - the fact that it locks-out the mains switch to prevent that turn-off-mains step from being omitted (or thoughtlessly reversed) while feeding power from the generator, causing backfeed.  It's physically impossible to cause backfeed, because the mains are physically locked into the "Off" position while the circuit that powers the panel from the generator is turned on.  Either-or, Not Both.

 

The interlock would not be particularly difficult for an electrically knowledgeable person to DIY, but it's an obvious modification to the power panel so IMHO a licensed electrician is 100% the way to go here.

 

43 minutes ago, Terry Tate said:

- Being able to throw a light switch or turn on a fan is awesome, but be careful with turning on major appliances (let alone AC/Heat). Your generator may not be able to provide as stable/consistent power as line power, and major appliances could be damaged. You have to make sure the generator output is able to handle what demands you place on it. There's a reason whole house generators are more expensive than the standard portables.

 

You're correct that modern appliances have a lot of electronics that can be potentially damanged by the spikes and surges of a standard generator. Having stable and consistent power is the point of having an inverter generator rather than a standard one.  I can tell you know this, but for others, the battery, inverter, and alternator in the inverter generator are designed to produce spike and surge free AC that won't damage appliances. 

 

And yes, we started with a spreadsheet with the power draw of everything in the house and decided what we wanted to be able to operate to stay functional when sizing the generators.  Being able to power the neighbor's fridges requires careful consideration of what we run.

 

Again, I don't want to minimize your valid concerns.  My point is to ensure people who might benefit from emergency power, but who can't or don't want to put out the money for a whole house generator, know these are relatively standard and straightforward to address.

 

Love the username by the way.  TRIPLE T!  The pain train's coming!

[Terry Tate]

On 8/2/2023 at 1:50 PM, Beck Water said:

 

Yes

You raise a number of valid concerns that are important to make people aware of.

I don't want to sound like I'm minimizing them, but it's also important to me for folks to understand that this is really pretty straightforward to address.  I don't want people to feel that it's "whole house generator or bad idea" when it comes to emergency preparedness.

 

Good job! Many years ago I learned there is a common redneck engineering solution to wire a plug to backfeed from a portable generator via a dryer outlet to power the house. This step is very easy to accomplish, and requires little to no understanding of what you're dealing with. And as you might imagine, long-term outages here are often accompanied by news stories of electrocutions, fires, injured/dead linemen, or a whole house full of blown appliances due to it. Just hoping anyone interested does the same level of research and planning as you described.

 

There's a lot more commercial solutions available these days, so maybe it's not as big an issue.

[Pete]

 

[Pete]

testing

[CookieG]

On 7/31/2023 at 12:00 AM, Just Jack said:

 

Here in Syracuse they've been doing a program where they've plotted out certain streets to replace the main water pipes.  But at the same time, they also replace/update all utilities, to cut down on future repairs.  The streets stay dug up longer, but now they know exactly where everything is under that street once they are finished.  

 

 

And I remember seeing a newspaper photo back in 1997 or 1998 from the Watertown NY ice storm. There was a city street where one side had power and the other did not.  What neighbors did was run extension cords to the house directly across from each other.  

And....number 3 water main break occurred this morning, since the road was redone.  Maybe 200 yards from where it broke last fall.  Surprisingly, the water is still flowing somewhat.  And I was going to make sun tea today so I filled my gallon pitcher last night.  Coupling that with the drinking water I had in the fridge, I'd be OK even if it had been

 

As far as power going out on one side of the street, that has happened here, and actually happened last week when it went out.  As the repair trucks pulled up, I yelled across the street to the neighbors: "You people on that side of the street have no idea what its like for us on this side of the street!"  They laughed and reminded me its happened to them in the past.  They then made sure we were ok, but as the trucks were showing up at the time, I told them it wouldn't be that much longer. They hadn't known we were without power until the truck pulled up.

 

I live in a good neighborhood with good neighbors.

[DrDawkinstein]

On 7/29/2023 at 9:23 PM, boyst said:

Whole house generators are worth it. They're fairly affordable, compared to years past.

 

We plan on getting one. My quotes were both around $10k for the Generac generator and install. So it can wait right now.

 

I'm sitting here without power since 5pm yesterday. ERT 5pm today. Second 24hr outage we've had this summer.

 

Going to Harbor Freight and getting this guy today. Will be good enough until we pull the trigger on the Generac. Or if it's good enough, save me $9k.

 

 

[boyst]

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

We plan on getting one. My quotes were both around $10k for the Generac generator and install. So it can wait right now.

 

I'm sitting here without power since 5pm yesterday. ERT 5pm today. Second 24hr outage we've had this summer.

 

Going to Harbor Freight and getting this guy today. Will be good enough until we pull the trigger on the Generac. Or if it's good enough, save me $9k.

 

 

if you do it right you'll have it hardwired into your junction/fuse box main line and can have it split off from there the your be an alternate fuse box.

if you can afford it now, you can do this in prep for a whole house unit. then again, you said all included for $10. there is a significant hidden cost in wiring - especially if done right with a secondary fuse box controlling the resources the generator provides

 

how many kW? i forget what the farm is, i think it's over 20kW-  furnace and water are gas. stove is electric and was not included strategically. we use an outdoor grill with propane in lieu of the stove.

Edited August 8, 2023 by boyst

[DrDawkinstein]

On 8/8/2023 at 2:05 PM, boyst said:

if you do it right you'll have it hardwired into your junction/fuse box main line and can have it split off from there the your be an alternate fuse box.

if you can afford it now, you can do this in prep for a whole house unit. then again, you said all included for $10. there is a significant hidden cost in wiring - especially if done right with a secondary fuse box controlling the resources the generator provides

 

how many kW? i forget what the farm is, i think it's over 20kW-  furnace and water are gas. stove is electric and was not included strategically. we use an outdoor grill with propane in lieu of the stove.

 

I meant to answer this, and then... life happened. lol

 

Yeah, the one we spec'ed was at 22kW. All sorts of fancy features they have on them nowadays with wifi and apps and stuff.

 

This is the model: https://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/home-backup-generators/guardian-series/22kw-7042-wifi-enabled

 

Annoying/Frustrating to see an MSRP of $5500 on the manufacturer site and then everyone we talk to is $12k all in. But that is full install. Pulling permits, pouring the pad, wiring it into the house, etc. I get it isnt easy, but when more than half is install/labor... ugh.

[boyst]

20 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I meant to answer this, and then... life happened. lol

 

Yeah, the one we spec'ed was at 22kW. All sorts of fancy features they have on them nowadays with wifi and apps and stuff.

 

This is the model: https://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/home-backup-generators/guardian-series/22kw-7042-wifi-enabled

 

Annoying/Frustrating to see an MSRP of $5500 on the manufacturer site and then everyone we talk to is $12k all in. But that is full install. Pulling permits, pouring the pad, wiring it into the house, etc. I get it isnt easy, but when more than half is install/labor... ugh.

I know trades folks who do all of that stuff and even if they do it on the side and charge me a "fair" rate with just a little over cost for them they don't even make that much. It's insane how much cost there is when it comes to trade work.

 

Good example is a friend who does his own grading and clearing work. Dude makes about $35/hr profit regardless of using his dozer, backhoe, and skidsteer on a 20 hour job costing $10k.

[sherpa]

57 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I meant to answer this, and then... life happened. lol

 

Yeah, the one we spec'ed was at 22kW. All sorts of fancy features they have on them nowadays with wifi and apps and stuff.

 

This is the model: https://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/home-backup-generators/guard

ian-series/22kw-7042-wifi-enabled

 

Annoying/Frustrating to see an MSRP of $5500 on the manufacturer site and then everyone we talk to is $12k all in. But that is full install. Pulling permits, pouring the pad, wiring it into the house, etc. I get it isnt easy, but when more than half is install/labor... ugh.

 

That is the unit I have, but I got it done for about 9k+. Don't remember the final number, but it was under 10.

 

It isn't simply the generator. I have two 200amp transfer panels that connect the generator to the service panel. They are not cheap.

As well, the unit needs fuel, whether nat gas or liquid propane, and that is a plumbing expense.

 

There are ways to save money.

I didn't pay a Generac contractor. I found a local guy who does these installs to do the generator and transfer panels, and got a separate guy to do the fuel supply  plumbing.

 

You don't need to pour a concrete pad. I leveled the ground, built a weather resistant rectangle, filled it with crushed stone, then leveled it and put 12x12 pavers on top. The generator is secure and level.

[boyst]

5 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

That is the unit I have, but I got it done for about 9k+. Don't remember the final number, but it was under 10.

 

It isn't simply the generator. I have two 200amp transfer panels that connect the generator to the service panel. They are not cheap.

As well, the unit needs fuel, whether nat gas or liquid propane, and that is a plumbing expense.

 

There are ways to save money.

I didn't pay a Generac contractor. I found a local guy who does these installs to do the generator and transfer panels, and got a separate guy to do the fuel supply  plumbing.

 

You don't need to pour a concrete pad. I leveled the ground, built a weather resistant rectangle, filled it with crushed stone, then leveled it and put 12x12 pavers on top. The generator is secure and level.

Did you go nat gas or propane?

 

We will likely go nat gas, but I know they're making some now that can be easily switched to propane tanks should nat gas be an issue.

 

I also worry about regulations making these things harder and more expensive like gas stoves. 

[sherpa]

3 hours ago, boyst said:

Did you go nat gas or propane?

 

We will likely go nat gas, but I know they're making some now that can be easily switched to propane tanks should nat gas be an issue.

 

I also worry about regulations making these things harder and more expensive like gas stoves. 

 

Propane. I would have used nat gas, but not an option.

I wouldn't worry about regulations.

There would be a revolution if some law forced people to abandon a life saving power option when they are purchased for the singular purpose of reacting to a power outage.