NFL Head Coaches who also were their teams defensive play callers:

[WotAGuy]

Ironically, Leslie Frazier called defensive signals while coach of the Vikings. That’s where McDermott got the idea. 
 

Scooby gave me this info. 

[msw2112]

16 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Here's the thing: most people here are sheep and worship anyone currently associated with the team like a god.

 

Then, when a certain person leaves the team, they usually make fun of that person and sneer about how bad they were.

 

I don't get it either.

 

Kiko Alonso, to name one of dozens, went from highly regarded fanboy player to the butt of jokes here in about 48 hours when we traded him off the team.

 

Rex is another great example.  

 

 

 

I was horrified and pissed off when the Bills hired Rex and couldn't wait until he was gone.  But not as horrified and pissed off as I was when they hired Dick Jauron.

[PBF81]

39 minutes ago, MJS said:

Yes. Literally that is what this thread was started for. To compare HC's who called defensive plays.

 

Why? Because the OP cherry picked a couple of names in bad faith and tried to use that to show why McDermott would not be successful. But his list was so incomplete it is laughable.

 

If you are trying to take the conversation somewhere else, that is up to you.

 

Yeah, I get it, but taking an unproven athlete or coach at a certain level, then trying to prove a negative by introducing directly unrelated superlatives, some in a different era of football, and using them to make a contrary point isn't much different.  

 

At this point in time, and contrasted with his modern peers that also had QBs of Allen's caliber, McD's closer to those that haven't made it than to the Belichicks and Tomlin's of the world.  That's pretty much indisputable.  I also don't recall Belichick or Tomlin much less some of the others giving away playoff games like McD has either.  Certainly "13 Seconds" ranks up there with the historical worst.  

 

On that note however, and given your statement of "taking the conversation somewhere else," I wouldn't mind breaching the narrative that McD was something other than an incredibly average DC in Carolina and how that may relate to him calling the D here this season, on top of taking care of the head-coaching duties.  

 

The narrative is that he was some kind of stellar DC in Carolina.  I view him as having been incredibly average.  He also had Keuchly, one of the best MLBs of the modern era and in league history.  

 

Yet, his Scoring defenses ranked 27th, 18th, 2nd 21st, 6th, and 26th and with yardage Ds not ranked much better.  In short, on average patently average.  

 

In his big moments to shine, namely the Super Bowl in the 2015 season, where the Panthers which had allowed an average of 19 PPG that season, lost the Super Bowl to an offense ranked 19th in Scoring (22 PPG) by allowing them to score 24.  Perhaps the most damning element of that is that Denver was led by Peyton Manning at 39, who posted a cataclysmically horrible season throwing for 9 TDs (31st), 17 INTs (31st), and a rating of 67.9. (34th) leaving the Broncos entirely one-dimensional.  

 

Yet, despite allowing an average 19 PPG, McD's Defense allowed 24 points to that team that had averaged 22 PPG.  

 

Now, I'm not saying that this is what we can expect, I'm also not saying that we shouldn't expect "more of the same" as such, but it without any question further fuels the fires surrounding McD's big-game capability and competency.  

 

In the playoffs the year prior, 2014, the Panthers were ousted in the Divisional round also largely fueled by poor defense which allowed 24 points and 348 yards to a team ranked 10th in offense.  Either way, his D definitely did not step it up.  

 

In their only other playoff appearance in the year before that one, 2013, McD's third in Carolina, McD's 2nd ranked Scoring and 2nd ranked Yardage D which had allowed an average of 15 PPG that season, allowed Colin Kaepernick and the Niner's 11th-ranked scoring offense to score 23 for the loss.  

 

Despite what some want to see, there's an extended history by McD of underachievement and choking in the playoffs.  

 

Care to discuss?   

 

And BTW, I didn't cherry-pick anything there, that's McD's history as a DC in Carolina and in every final playoff game of the three seasons that the Panthers made the playoffs.  

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by PBF81

[BullBuchanan]

16 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Here's the thing: most people here are sheep and worship anyone currently associated with the team like a god.

 

Then, when a certain person leaves the team, they usually make fun of that person and sneer about how bad they were.

 

I don't get it either.

 

Kiko Alonso, to name one of dozens, went from highly regarded fanboy player to the butt of jokes here in about 48 hours when we traded him off the team.

 

Rex is another great example.  

 

 

Doug Whaley was regarded as a premier talent when we poached him from the lauded Steelers organization. He also drafted 2 and signed 1 of the Bills 4 current all-Pros (Milano, White, Poyer).

The dude is a total scrub around these parts though.

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

17 hours ago, Chaos said:

The only ones I could find.  But there might be others. 

You couldn't 'find' Belichick? 

Give us a break...

8 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Doug Whaley was regarded as a premier talent when we poached him from the lauded Steelers organization. He also drafted 2 and signed 1 of the Bills 4 current all-Pros (Milano, White, Poyer).

The dude is a total scrub around these parts though.

He was a good talent scout, but a 'scrub' GM. Being a keen observer of talent is quite different from managing the roster and draft capital over time, not to mention the communications and 'political' aspect of the GM role. 

 

 

[MJS]

45 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Yeah, I get it, but taking an unproven athlete or coach at a certain level, then trying to prove a negative by introducing directly unrelated superlatives, some in a different era of football, and using them to make a contrary point isn't much different.  

 

At this point in time, and contrasted with his modern peers that also had QBs of Allen's caliber, McD's closer to those that haven't made it than to the Belichicks and Tomlin's of the world.  That's pretty much indisputable.  I also don't recall Belichick or Tomlin much less some of the others giving away playoff games like McD has either.  Certainly "13 Seconds" ranks up there with the historical worst.  

 

On that note however, and given your statement of "taking the conversation somewhere else," I wouldn't mind breaching the narrative that McD was something other than an incredibly average DC in Carolina and how that may relate to him calling the D here this season, on top of taking care of the head-coaching duties.  

 

The narrative is that he was some kind of stellar DC in Carolina.  I view him as having been incredibly average.  He also had Keuchly, one of the best MLBs of the modern era and in league history.  

 

Yet, his Scoring defenses ranked 27th, 18th, 2nd 21st, 6th, and 26th and with yardage Ds not ranked much better.  In short, on average patently average.  

 

In his big moments to shine, namely the Super Bowl in the 2015 season, where the Panthers which had allowed an average of 19 PPG that season, lost the Super Bowl to an offense ranked 19th in Scoring (22 PPG) by allowing them to score 24.  Perhaps the most damning element of that is that Denver was led by Peyton Manning at 39, who posted a cataclysmically horrible season throwing for 9 TDs (31st), 17 INTs (31st), and a rating of 67.9. (34th) leaving the Broncos entirely one-dimensional.  

 

Yet, despite allowing an average 19 PPG, McD's Defense allowed 24 points to that team that had averaged 22 PPG.  

 

Now, I'm not saying that this is what we can expect, I'm also not saying that we shouldn't expect "more of the same" as such, but it without any question further fuels the fires surrounding McD's big-game capability and competency.  

 

In the playoffs the year prior, 2014, the Panthers were ousted in the Divisional round also largely fueled by poor defense which allowed 24 points and 348 yards to a team ranked 10th in offense.  Either way, his D definitely did not step it up.  

 

In their only other playoff appearance in the year before that one, 2013, McD's third in Carolina, McD's 2nd ranked Scoring and 2nd ranked Yardage D which had allowed an average of 15 PPG that season, allowed Colin Kaepernick and the Niner's 11th-ranked scoring offense to score 23 for the loss.  

 

Despite what some want to see, there's an extended history by McD of underachievement and choking in the playoffs.  

 

Care to discuss?   

 

And BTW, I didn't cherry-pick anything there, that's McD's history as a DC in Carolina and in every final playoff game of the three seasons that the Panthers made the playoffs.  

You didn't cherry pick, the OP did. My comments were about the premise of the thread.

[BullBuchanan]

14 minutes ago, Bob Chandler's Hands said:

You couldn't 'find' Belichick? 

Give us a break...

He was a good talent scout, but a 'scrub' GM. Being a keen observer of talent is quite different from managing the roster and draft capital over time, not to mention the communications and 'political' aspect of the GM role. 

 

 

Not sure managing draft capital is a valid criticism. He had 7 picks in two of his draft and 6 picks int he two others that he was solely responsible for. He also drafted only 1 player over 4 years that never played in an NFL game while Beane drafted 3 over his first 5 years plus numerous draft picks that didn't even make their opening day rosters including two 5th round picks.

[PrimeTime101]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Has Tomlin ever called defensive plays as a Head Coach though? I know Belichick has, and Carroll has (although not when he won a championship). 

https://www.steelernation.com/steelers-mike-tomlin-relinquish

[PBF81]

32 minutes ago, MJS said:

You didn't cherry pick, the OP did. My comments were about the premise of the thread.

 

Ahh, gotcha.  

 

But in defense of his post, he's not wrong.  Per my post, the one you just responded too, it would be even worse cherry-picking if he picked the few defensive-minded head coaches that did win a Super Bowl and claimed commonality with them when there's even less commonality there.  

 

So he has a point whether people like it or not.  

 

This thread has prompted me to perform an analysis of McD's performances as a DC/HC in the playoffs.  I'll squeeze it in when I have time, but I've already found it to be interesting based upon my aforementioned post.  

 

Don't you?  I mean to suggest that that's irrelevant in the context here would be entirely remiss while exhibiting a ridiculous bias in favor of McD.  

 

 

[Capco]

Did Tuna ever call defensive plays?

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

https://www.steelernation.com/steelers-mike-tomlin-relinquish

 

Yea I corrected this later. I was genuinely unaware he had called the plays.

[MJS]

55 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Ahh, gotcha.  

 

But in defense of his post, he's not wrong.  Per my post, the one you just responded too, it would be even worse cherry-picking if he picked the few defensive-minded head coaches that did win a Super Bowl and claimed commonality with them when there's even less commonality there.  

 

So he has a point whether people like it or not.  

 

This thread has prompted me to perform an analysis of McD's performances as a DC/HC in the playoffs.  I'll squeeze it in when I have time, but I've already found it to be interesting based upon my aforementioned post.  

 

Don't you?  I mean to suggest that that's irrelevant in the context here would be entirely remiss while exhibiting a ridiculous bias in favor of McD.  

Not when the whole point is that defensive play calling coaches can't win superbowls. If you have criticism for Sean McDermott, it needs to come from somewhere other than that. The premise of the thread is false.

 

The other criticisms you have are probably valid, although I'd have to dig into it more.

Edited June 20, 2023 by MJS

[PBF81]

9 minutes ago, MJS said:

Not when the whole point is that defensive play calling coaches can't win superbowls. If you have criticism for Sean McDermott, it needs to come from somewhere other than that. The premise of the thread is false.

 

The other criticisms you have are probably valid, although I'd have to dig into it more.

 

I suppose that you have a point there, but I still think it's somewhere in the middle, as in you also have to look at the entire body of work.  Look at Belichick's defensive rankings as a DC in NY and Tomlin's as a HC in Pittsburgh.  It's also remiss to then imply that McD's compare favorably with theirs.  

 

 

[Dr. K]

19 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Here's the thing: most people here are sheep and worship anyone currently associated with the team like a god.

 

Then, when a certain person leaves the team, they usually make fun of that person and sneer about how bad they were.

 

I don't get it either.

 

Kiko Alonso, to name one of dozens, went from highly regarded fanboy player to the butt of jokes here in about 48 hours when we traded him off the team.

 

Rex is another great example.  

 

 

I thought Ryan was a mistake from the day they hired him, and said so at the time. 

[MJS]

3 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

I suppose that you have a point there, but I still think it's somewhere in the middle, as in you also have to look at the entire body of work.  Look at Belichick's defensive rankings as a DC in NY and Tomlin's as a HC in Pittsburgh.  It's also remiss to then imply that McD's compare favorably with theirs.  

I think it is foolish to make the comparison at all, based on playcalling only. For one thing, McDermott has very limited experience calling plays as the head coach, like only a game or two. He hasn't even done it, so why would we compare him to other head coaches who have? Maybe we need to see how he does before we start comparing him to Tomlin or Belichick or any of the others mentioned. Maybe the whole thing is meaningless anyway.

 

I also don't think his time as a coordinator is very valuable in determining how successful he will be calling plays in Buffalo. It was with a different team, with different priorities, different players, a completely different offense and situation. We'd have to look into how much they prioritized defensive personnel for McDermott. We know they had Keuchly, but they also let Norman walk and had a talent starved secondary that year, if I remember.

 

We can look at his tendencies as a playcaller, but he might not be the same now because he has a completely different cast of characters to work with now, plus he may have evolved as a coach. All we know is that others say he is more aggressive than Frazier, which sounds good but doesn't mean a whole lot. Locked On Bills just had an episode about what his playcalling may be like, and suggested a lot of simulated pressures, but it is all guesses.

 

I like to see how things go before I condemn or champion something. I was the same with Josh Allen. When I see good signs, I make that known. When I see poor signs, I talk about that too. For instance, I talked a lot about moving on from Frazier this offseason, and I advocated moving on from Jerry Hughes the last couple of years he was here, because he wasn't producing.

4 minutes ago, Dr. K said:

I thought Ryan was a mistake from the day they hired him, and said so at the time. 

I was VERY dissapointed with that hire, just like I was disappointed with the Chan Gailey hire, although I warmed up to Chan.

 

Rex did come with defensive success, so I was willing to see what he could do with an already stellar defense. Well, he destroyed it, and I was vocal about his failures and wanted him gone, as were most Bills fans.

[Dr. K]

5 minutes ago, MJS said:

 

I was VERY dissapointed with that hire (Rex Ryan), just like I was disappointed with the Chan Gailey hire, although I warmed up to Chan.

 

Rex did come with defensive success, so I was willing to see what he could do with an already stellar defense. Well, he destroyed it, and I was vocal about his failures and wanted him gone, as were most Bills fans.

I would have preferred that they simply promote Jim Schwartz. At least the defense would have stayed the same. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

3 hours ago, msw2112 said:

 

I was horrified and pissed off when the Bills hired Rex and couldn't wait until he was gone.  But not as horrified and pissed off as I was when they hired Dick Jauron.

I was excited when they got Rex, after his KC fiasco of botched calls and not knowing how instant replay worked I was done with him  Jauron, the walking dead, was arguably the best coach we had in the drought years.  He had garbage for rosters and QBs, how he manufactured 7 win seasons esp at the height of tom Brady was really incredible.

[PBF81]

13 minutes ago, MJS said:

I think it is foolish to make the comparison at all, based on playcalling only. For one thing, McDermott has very limited experience calling plays as the head coach, like only a game or two. He hasn't even done it, so why would we compare him to other head coaches who have? Maybe we need to see how he does before we start comparing him to Tomlin or Belichick or any of the others mentioned. Maybe the whole thing is meaningless anyway.

 

I also don't think his time as a coordinator is very valuable in determining how successful he will be calling plays in Buffalo. It was with a different team, with different priorities, different players, a completely different offense and situation. We'd have to look into how much they prioritized defensive personnel for McDermott. We know they had Keuchly, but they also let Norman walk and had a talent starved secondary that year, if I remember.

 

We can look at his tendencies as a playcaller, but he might not be the same now because he has a completely different cast of characters to work with now, plus he may have evolved as a coach. All we know is that others say he is more aggressive than Frazier, which sounds good but doesn't mean a whole lot. Locked On Bills just had an episode about what his playcalling may be like, and suggested a lot of simulated pressures, but it is all guesses.

 

I like to see how things go before I condemn or champion something. I was the same with Josh Allen. When I see good signs, I make that known. When I see poor signs, I talk about that too. For instance, I talked a lot about moving on from Frazier this offseason, and I advocated moving on from Jerry Hughes the last couple of years he was here, because he wasn't producing.

 

A fair post, and I agree with the bolded.  Still, the history stands and has set a trend/pattern.  At some point that needs to be broken and turn into a positive trend/pattern or all we're doing is the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.   HIs ardent apologists use even less applicable things that you discount above and use them to the n-th degree in his defense.  So there's that as well.  I don't recall seeing you make the same argument going that way, in fairness to the discussion.  Maybe you have, I simply don't recall it if you've done so.   

 

At the end of the day we've generally been a better team than the teams that we've lost to in the playoffs with one exception, which was botched due to an inexcusable error in judgement.  That needs to change and pretty darn quickly if he's to remain on.  

 

Wasting the Allen era while he's trying to figure out how to personally get over that hump doesn't work for me and many if not most other fans.  It certainly isn't supported by fans and media outside of the Bills' fanbase.  

 

 

[MJS]

5 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

A fair post, and I agree with the bolded.  Still, the history stands and has set a trend/pattern.  At some point that needs to be broken and turn into a positive trend/pattern or all we're doing is the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.   HIs ardent apologists use even less applicable things that you discount above and use them to the n-th degree in his defense.  So there's that as well.  I don't recall seeing you make the same argument going that way, in fairness to the discussion.  Maybe you have, I simply don't recall it if you've done so.   

 

At the end of the day we've generally been a better team than the teams that we've lost to in the playoffs with one exception, which was botched due to an inexcusable error in judgement.  That needs to change and pretty darn quickly if he's to remain on.  

 

Wasting the Allen era while he's trying to figure out how to personally get over that hump doesn't work for me and many if not most other fans.  It certainly isn't supported by fans and media outside of the Bills' fanbase.  

Well, I am a supporter of Sean McDermott. I credit a lot of the success and building of our current team to him. I don't think we can divorce the success of the team and put it all on Josh Allen. McDermott built it all and we are only in the position we are in today because of him and the team he built, including Beane.

 

The team needs to continue to push for a championship, and that ultimately rests on Sean McDermott's shoulders. I understand that failures to get over the hump reside with him as well, but let's not pretend like he wasn't an integral part of getting us where we are today. And let's not pretend like Josh Allen and many of the players on this team have not been a part of the failures too. They all go together. I love Josh Allen, but Dorsey wasn't holding a gun to his head telling him to throw deep so much or throw bad interceptions. Everyone needs to step up.

 

There is plenty of blame and praise to go around. I'm not anywhere close to giving up on this team or the head coach.

[RoyBatty is alive]

2 minutes ago, MJS said:

Well, I am a supporter of Sean McDermott. I credit a lot of the success and building of our current team to him. I don't think we can divorce the success of the team and put it all on Josh Allen. McDermott built it all and we are only in the position we are in today because of him and the team he built, including Beane.

 

The team needs to continue to push for a championship, and that ultimately rests on Sean McDermott's shoulders. I understand that failures to get over the hump reside with him as well, but let's not pretend like he wasn't an integral part of getting us where we are today. And let's not pretend like Josh Allen and many of the players on this team have not been a part of the failures too. They all go together. I love Josh Allen, but Dorsey wasn't holding a gun to his head telling him to throw deep so much or throw bad interceptions. Everyone needs to step up.

 

There is plenty of blame and praise to go around. I'm not anywhere close to giving up on this team or the head coach.

Correct, players also bare responsibility.  I agree on McDermott and Beane, Bill fane expectations now are ridiculously high, SB or you are a failure. 

 

Josh Allen gave the Vikings the game last year, almost single handed, his endzone fumble comic and right there ANY shot at MVVP was gone, imo.

 

I would like to know on all the deep throws  were those on  Dorsey of JAs call, or on both?.  Unfortunately, they often were the "correct" risk adjusted calls with the defensive looks we saw.