GOAT debate related to era Montana vs Brady

[Mikie2times]

The talking heads get to the Goat conversation a lot with basketball. If they don't give it to MJ, the argument typically is depends on the era. Which if you watched NBA in that era, it was a physical game. It's hard to even recognize today's game compared to it. I watched a lot of early 90's NFL as well but just got back into a binge kick of 80's / 90's classics. I can't help but think, why do we never hear the era argument in debating the NFL's Goat conversation? For all the Jim Brown fans, lets just keep this to QB for the sake of this post.

 

Towards the end of his career Montana was basically a concussion time bomb. Over a decade of just brutal hits. He ultimately played his last game against us in the AFC championship and was knocked out.  Corrected, he retired a year after the Bills game...

 

When you look at Brady, about the only thing that ever seemed to bother him was being hit. Further, not being hit is precisely what allowed him to do what he did as long as he did. For some time at this point I conceded the Goat title to Brady not really pausing to ask if all things were equal. Watching some of these games and the hits in them. I just don't know how Brady would hold up against this. I know this is a Bills board and many like to dismiss Brady and what he has done, but what is your take on this? Doing your best to put your anti TB feelings to the side, do you think he could have done more than Joe if he played in the 80's and early 90's? Defensive holding not being the same. The insane physicality. Actually a decent amount to unravel on this topic. Factoring era in I have to give the nod to Montana.  

Edited April 12, 2023 by KzooMike

[thenorthremembers]

Brady made his coach look better than he was.   Montana's coach made Montana look better than he was.    In my lifetime I've found the easiest way to the truth is to choose the answer with the least amount of what ifs or variables.  Brady is the GOAT and to me it's not close.  Personally, I think the larger debate here is whether Montana was better than Peyton Manning.   Hell, Mahomes should already be mentioned in the conversation for 2nd best ever.  But just like with Jordan in Basketball, there is no real discussion about who is the GOAT.

[freddyjj]

17 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

Towards the end of his career Montana was basically a concussion time bomb. Over a decade of just brutal hits. He ultimately played his last game against us in the AFC championship and was knocked out.

I always thought this too but Joe played for KC again in 14 games in 1994 and appeared also in one playoff at end of 1994 season.  

 

Sucks getting old. 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MontJo01.htm

[Mikie2times]

3 minutes ago, freddyjj said:

I always thought this too but Joe played for KC again in 14 games in 1994 and appeared also in one playoff at end of 1994 season.  

 

Sucks getting old. 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MontJo01.htm

Shame on me 🙃

[Billl]

Montana left the 49ers, and they kept on rolling.  Brady left the Patriots, and they’ve been mediocre at best since.

[Mikie2times]

Just now, Billl said:

Montana left the 49ers, and they kept on rolling.  Brady left the Patriots, and they’ve been mediocre at best since.

Dumbest argument ever, he handed it off to a future hall of famer. Lots of ways to debate this, discussing Steve Young performing well is not close to one of them. 

[Southern_Bills]

It's Brady, I hate to say it. Maybe it was because of advances in sports medicine/nutrition and it helped him extend his prime. Can't fault him for that.

 

I believe NE was going to fall off regardless if he stayed or went, but it happened how it happened. 

 

And for the Montana handed it to another HoF QB arguments, don't forget Young was considered a failure in Tampa Bay. So Walsh definitely got the best out of him.

[Mikie2times]

6 minutes ago, Southern_Bills said:

It's Brady, I hate to say it. Maybe it was because of advances in sports medicine/nutrition and it helped him extend his prime. Can't fault him for that.

 

I believe NE was going to fall off regardless if he stayed or went, but it happened how it happened. 

 

And for the Montana handed it to another HoF QB arguments, don't forget Young was considered a failure in Tampa Bay. So Walsh definitely got the best out of him.

Young played his first two years in the league for Tampa, who at the time was one of the worst teams in the league. I think it's a bit short sighted to just site sports medicine/nutrition as the reason Brady played longer. Look at some of the hits QB's took in the 80's. No amount of medicine or nutrition would allow the body to hold up. The fear of taking those shots and being concussed over and over as Joe was certainly would impact any player. At the end of the day I can't dispute giving the nod to Brady but so many better reasons then some of the things being discussed. 

[Augie]

17 minutes ago, Billl said:

Montana left the 49ers, and they kept on rolling.  Brady left the Patriots, and they’ve been mediocre at best since.

 

Montana had a young HOF QB behind him. Plug and play HOF QB’s.

 

Brady left of his own accord, with nothing but prayers behind him. 

[C.Biscuit97]

I loved Montana growing up but he got to throw to Jerry Rice, maybe the greatest football player ever. Steve Young, when healthy, was arguably better than Montana in that system. They also were loaded teams because there was no cap. Look at the scrubs Brady was throwing go besides Gronk.  Winning the amount of SBs they did in a salary cap makes Brady blow Montana away. 

28 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

Dumbest argument ever, he handed it off to a future hall of famer. Lots of ways to debate this, discussing Steve Young performing well is not close to one of them. 

Of course if does. It’s like the current 49ers now. If you blindly look at Jimmy G’s stats and “wins,” he looks great. However, the fact that almost any qb can step in and be successful shows there is nothing special about him. If there was any drop off between Montana and Young, it makes Montana look better. But Young was ever better than him. 

[Mikie2times]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I loved Montana growing up but he got to throw to Jerry Rice, maybe the greatest football player ever. Steve Young, when healthy, was arguably better than Montana in that system. They also were loaded teams because there was no cap. Look at the scrubs Brady was throwing go besides Gronk.  Winning the amount of SBs they did in a salary cap makes Brady blow Montana away. 

Of course if does. It’s like the current 49ers now. If you blindly look at Jimmy G’s stats and “wins,” he looks great. However, the fact that almost any qb can step in and be successful shows there is nothing special about him. If there was any drop off between Montana and Young, it makes Montana look better. But Young was ever better than him. 

If Brady left and handed it off to Steve Young they would still be winning Super Bowls. He can be a great player and so can Montana. That tandem has never really been replicated before. So if that's grounds for diminishing performance, pretty stupid IMO. With that logic any scrub that gets followed by a worse scrub gets elevated. Still a scrub.  

[90sBills]

28 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I loved Montana growing up but he got to throw to Jerry Rice, maybe the greatest football player ever. Steve Young, when healthy, was arguably better than Montana in that system. They also were loaded teams because there was no cap. Look at the scrubs Brady was throwing go besides Gronk.  Winning the amount of SBs they did in a salary cap makes Brady blow Montana away. 

Of course if does. It’s like the current 49ers now. If you blindly look at Jimmy G’s stats and “wins,” he looks great. However, the fact that almost any qb can step in and be successful shows there is nothing special about him. If there was any drop off between Montana and Young, it makes Montana look better. But Young was ever better than him. 

People forget that Montana won his first 2 superbowls before Rice got there.

 

Between Brady and the real ‘Joe Cool’ it’s Montana all the way for me. 

[Billl]

54 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

Dumbest argument ever, he handed it off to a future hall of famer. Lots of ways to debate this, discussing Steve Young performing well is not close to one of them. 

Didn’t hurt that the team also had Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, Ronnie Lott, Charles Haley, Michael Carter, Bill Romanowski, Wesley Walls…

 

Montana was arguably the GOAT before Brady came along, but Brady ended any legitimate debate.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

58 minutes ago, Billl said:

Montana left the 49ers, and they kept on rolling.  Brady left the Patriots, and they’ve been mediocre at best since.

The roster was insane for the 9ers…during and after Montana—similar to a Favre to Rodgers handoff as far as QB talent. McCorkle post Brady is not even in the same universe of talent comp imho. Also, the resurgence of our Bills is not to be underestimated in the fall of the Patsies—with or without Tom I have no doubt a maturing Allen bests old Brady post -2019. 

[Billl]

41 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Montana had a young HOF QB behind him. Plug and play HOF QB’s.

 

Brady left of his own accord, with nothing but prayers behind him. 

The same Steve Young who had 11 career TDs and 21 INTs before he came to SF and threw 10 TDs and 0 INTs his first season there?  Having a HOF coach and one of the greatest supporting casts of all time doesn’t hurt.

[GoBills808]

re the NBA

 

Very few of those guys from the 80s could have played today. They weren't athletic enough, didn't train enough, and the physical defense everyone likes to reminisce about were just fouls if we're being honest.

[Augie]

Just now, Billl said:

The same Steve Young who had 11 career TDs and 21 INTs before he came to SF and threw 10 TDs and 0 INTs his first season there?  Having a HOF coach and one of the greatest supporting casts of all time doesn’t hurt.

Yup. That’s the same guy. The guy who played with basically the same players as Montana. Your “supporting casts” argument only hurts you here. 

 

You embarrass yourself if you don’t acknowledge how bad the Buc’s were back then. 

[Billl]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

Yup. That’s the same guy. The guy who played with basically the same players as Montana. Your “supporting casts” argument only hurts you here. 

 

You embarrass yourself if you don’t acknowledge how bad the Buc’s were back then. 

You’re so close to getting it.  Playing with a historically great supporting cast makes QBs look even better.  Even with that roster, Montana was 16-7 all time in the postseason.  Brady is 35-13.  

 

Brady is the greatest football player in NFL history, and it’s not particularly close.  Denying that is akin to denying that Gretzky is the GOAT in hockey.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

You’re so close to getting it.  Playing with a historically great supporting cast makes QBs look even better.  Even with that roster, Montana was 16-7 all time in the postseason.  Brady is 35-13.  

 

Brady is the greatest football player in NFL history, and it’s not particularly close.  Denying that is akin to denying that Gretzky is the GOAT in hockey.

 

You are so FAR from getting it. I was talking about Montana and Young. 

[Billl]

8 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

You are so FAR from getting it. I was talking about Montana and Young. 

I know.  You came into the middle of a conversation and decided the discussion was about something else entirely.  Young went from looking like a bust to an immediate all-pro by moving from a crappy roster to an historically great one.  Montana played nearly his entire career with loaded rosters and won 16 postseason games and 4 Super Bowls in 15 seasons.  Incredible as his career was, it’s absolutely dwarfed by Brady’s.  You could literally cut TB’s career into 3 sections and any one of them would be HOF worthy.

 

You put a rookie Joe Montana on the 2000 Patriots, and he doesn’t end his career with 10 Super Bowl appearances and 7 rings.  The same can be said for literally every QB in history other than Tom Brady.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

Montana left the 49ers, and they kept on rolling.  Brady left the Patriots, and they’ve been mediocre at best since.

 

Terrible take.  Montana left a talent rich team who another HOF QB took the reigns from.  Its not remotely comparable to Brady leaving NE with Cam Newton and a busted roster.  

[Southern_Bills]

1 hour ago, KzooMike said:

Young played his first two years in the league for Tampa, who at the time was one of the worst teams in the league. I think it's a bit short sighted to just site sports medicine/nutrition as the reason Brady played longer. Look at some of the hits QB's took in the 80's. No amount of medicine or nutrition would allow the body to hold up. The fear of taking those shots and being concussed over and over as Joe was certainly would impact any player. At the end of the day I can't dispute giving the nod to Brady but so many better reasons then some of the things being discussed. 

 

Definitely can't argue QB protection through rules didn't help Brady stay healthy. I do believe Sports medicine/nutrition played into it as well.

 

Probably alot of parts to the equation, doubtful anyone can pinpoint the one "smoking gun".

 

And also, do refs count? Lol

[Since1981]

Tom Brady, I hate it. TB12 is the goat. The dude made everyone better and didn’t skip a step at another team and sr citizen. 
+lived in salary cap, +FA era. 

I kind of think the topic of goat is settled as TB, for now…maybe in 8 yrs Pat or Josh

Edited April 12, 2023 by Since1981

[Mikie2times]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Terrible take.  Montana left a talent rich team who another HOF QB took the reigns from.  Its not remotely comparable to Brady leaving NE with Cam Newton and a busted roster.  

Ya, I mean, to even touch on Young or the post Montana 49ers is pointless. Young was a HOF QB no matter what team he played for. His experience in TB barely even counts. He played 5 games his rookies year and most of a season then was traded. Further, it is not as if Brady had nothing. BB has taken multiple teams since Brady left to contending with us late in the year. He has no talent on that roster which is largely his own doing but the guy can flat out scheme defenses. Better than any coach in NFL history. Again, I have no problem given Brady the nod. But even in Tampa he had a ton of talent. They both won with help, Montana had more, but whose to say what came first, his supporting cast being elite or him making them elite. 

[Billl]

7 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Terrible take.  Montana left a talent rich team who another HOF QB took the reigns from.  Its not remotely comparable to Brady leaving NE with Cam Newton and a busted roster.  

The Patriots were 12-4 when Brady left.  He dragged that terrible roster to a division title on his back before leaving to join a 7-9 Tampa team and immediately win another championship.  
 

I’m not entirely sure why people arguing that Montana was better than Brady are using the fact that Montana had a stacked roster when he left compared to the garbage that Brady had, but it doesn’t exactly bolster the case for Joe.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

Brady made his coach look better than he was.   Montana's coach made Montana look better than he was.    In my lifetime I've found the easiest way to the truth is to choose the answer with the least amount of what ifs or variables.  Brady is the GOAT and to me it's not close.  Personally, I think the larger debate here is whether Montana was better than Peyton Manning.   Hell, Mahomes should already be mentioned in the conversation for 2nd best ever.  But just like with Jordan in Basketball, there is no real discussion about who is the GOAT.

 

I don't agree with this way of looking at it.  Montana's coach had nothing to do with the pin point dimes Montana threw on a regular basis.  

 

Here is how I would look at it...what if Brady and Montana switched places?  If Brady played during Montanas era where QB's got regularly smashed, what would his career look like?  I mean we saw him lose to a mediocre Giants team twice in the SB just because the Giants actually got to Brady.  What about Montana?  What would his career look like playing in an era where you can't touch the WR's and can't touch the QB's?  How much longer would Montana play if he was getting concussed from massive hits that would be illegal today?

 

Personally, I think there is no chance Brady replicates his success or longevity playing during Montana's era.  Don't get me wrong, not saying Brady couldn't have still had a great career, but he doesn't get as many rings as he did and he sure as heck doesn't play as long as he did.  And when I look at Montana, if I plug him into the NE offense during the Brady era, I honestly can say that he still wins as many as he did, probably as many as Brady, maybe even more.  

 

There is no such thing as truly swapping them, therefore, Brady's accomplishments are unmatched and has absolutely earned the GOAT title.  But, I don't necessairly know that he was actually a better QB than Montana, or vice versa.  I mean Montana won 4 Super Bowls by 36 in SF.  He would have won at least 5 or 6 if not for the back issues that led them to change to Steve Young (who won 1 and should have won 2).  He went to KC and took over an offense that does not have a single good player on it and took them to the AFCCG and 2 straight playoff trips before he retired at age 38.  

 

I think its fair to argue that had Montana got to stay with the Niners and play well into his 40's, he likely gets 7, maybe more rings.  But his body didn't allow for that thanks to the substantially more physical era he played compared to Brady.  

 

 

2 minutes ago, Billl said:

The Patriots were 12-4 when Brady left.  He dragged that terrible roster to a division title on his back before leaving to join a 7-9 Tampa team and immediately win another championship.  
 

I’m not entirely sure why people arguing that Montana was better than Brady are using the fact that Montana had a stacked roster when he left compared to the garbage that Brady had, but it doesn’t exactly bolster the case for Joe.

 

Pats lost more than Brady when he left.  Not sure why you are ignoring that fact.  And the Niners were taken over by a HOF QB.  So your argument is that a HOF QB made the pats better but you ignore the fact that the Niners had Steve Young take over, another HOF QB.  And Montana went to KC...go google the roster of KC that year, I 100% gurantee you have never heard of any of the guys on that offense because they were not good...and Montana took them to the AFCCG and playoffs both years there despite playing with a bad back and no talent around him at the end of his career. 

[Rigotz]

It’s Brady and it’s not close.

 

Number of super bowls is not close.

Supporting cast is not close.

Stats are not close.

Regular season and post season performance are not close.

Years/Eras of dominance are not close.

 

If you think Montana is close, you’re just an old timer reminiscing about the good ol’ days.

[Billl]

The Chiefs were 10-6 the year before Montana arrived.  They were 11-5 Joe’s first season when he exploded on the scene for 13 TDs and 2100 yards.  He went 9-7 his second and final season.  The Chiefs were 13-3 the next year.  
 

In his two seasons in KC, the Chiefs were 20-12.  In the two seasons sandwiching his time there, they were 23-9.

[Mikie2times]

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ttCz7Dbc4

 

Try and really understand how a QB feels when this can happen and this is just one. It's not even the most famous. TB never got hit like this once in the pocket. I think people are underestimating it. Also consider the defensive holding rules and how that would impact Brady's 1.5 second release which further prevented him from getting hit. He wouldn't have those options if he played in Montana's time. The point of this thread was consider different variables being applied to Brady. Not rehash the same things that have been discussed. Clearly TB is the Goat based on the normal logic. That said I do really wonder how things would have went for him if he played in a different time. We will never know. 

[Billl]

12 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Pats lost more than Brady when he left.  Not sure why you are ignoring that fact.  And the Niners were taken over by a HOF QB.  So your argument is that a HOF QB made the pats better but you ignore the fact that the Niners had Steve Young take over, another HOF QB.  And Montana went to KC...go google the roster of KC that year, I 100% gurantee you have never heard of any of the guys on that offense because they were not good...and Montana took them to the AFCCG and playoffs both years there despite playing with a bad back and no talent around him at the end of his career. 

I’m literally typing this from Kansas City.  I watched every game Montana ever played as a Chief, attended several, and know a handful of his teammates personally.  He had an extremely talented team around him, and he was supposed to be the missing piece to take him to a championship.  Great as he was, it failed…unlike when Tampa brought in Brady.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ttCz7Dbc4

 

Try and really understand how a QB feels when this can happen and this is just one. It's not even the most famous. TB never got hit like this once in the pocket. I think people are underestimating it. Also consider the defensive holding rules and how that would impact Brady's 1.5 second release which further prevented him from getting hit. He wouldn't have those options if he played in Montana's time. The point of this thread was consider different variables being applied to Brady. Not rehash the same things that have been discussed. Clearly TB is the Goat based on the normal logic. That said I do really wonder how things would have went for him if he played in a different time. We will never know. 

He would have absolutely dominated

[Mikie2times]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

He would have absolutely dominated

You do remember how he looked in Buffalo's home opener with Bledsoe? Brady was a different player when he got hit. 

[US Egg]

Brady followed by a cloud of dust.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, KzooMike said:

You do remember how he looked in Buffalo's home opener with Bledsoe? Brady was a different player when he got hit. 

We're talking about simplified defenses stocked w smaller slower less athletic players, Brady would have won 15 SBs playing in those days imo

[Mikie2times]

4 minutes ago, Billl said:

I’m literally typing this from Kansas City.  I watched every game Montana ever played as a Chief, attended several, and know a handful of his teammates personally.  He had an extremely talented team around him, and he was supposed to be the missing piece to take him to a championship.  Great as he was, it failed…unlike when Tampa brought in Brady.

After 8 posts you still haven't discussed anything in the first post 🤣 

 

Do you have any feedback on how you think Brady would have performed in that era? Given the level of contribution you have had in this thread I think that's a fair question. I'm hoping we can do better than "really good".

[NoHuddleKelly12]

4 minutes ago, Billl said:

I’m literally typing this from Kansas City.  I watched every game Montana ever played as a Chief, attended several, and know a handful of his teammates personally.  He had an extremely talented team around him, and he was supposed to be the missing piece to take him to a championship.  Great as he was, it failed…unlike when Tampa brought in Brady.

…thanks to the ‘93 Bills. Ergo, Jim Kelly better than Montana. 
 

 

 

(I kid, I kid) 😉 Howeva…none of the great class of ‘83 AFC QB’s of that time ever beat Kelly in the playoffs (Marino, Elway) or for that matter Moon or Montana…but that bum Hostetler wins in the Super Bowl?? (Sigh) 

[Mikie2times]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

We're talking about simplified defenses stocked w smaller slower less athletic players, Brady would have won 15 SBs playing in those days imo

It's not like Brady suddenly was more physically gifted. He benefitted from rule changes, along with every other QB who played in his era.  Completion % was 10% lower in the mid 80's. Did you think that was just based on talent? It's a bit absurd to think he would just "carve" teams up. His entire life depended on quick passes. His completion % would be down, he would have taken way more shots. I think he would be just fine in that era, but I think Montana would have a much easier time adjusting to Tom's era than Tom Joe's. Even if Tom is better I believe that is the case.

[Billl]

6 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

After 8 posts you still haven't discussed anything in the first post 🤣 

 

Do you have any feedback on how you think Brady would have performed in that era? Given the level of contribution you have had in this thread I think that's a fair question. I'm hoping we can do better than "really good".

You can’t compare eras, but you can compare how QBs performed relative to their peers.  Montana led the league in TDs twice (once in a shortened season when he threw 17 and another when Marino was blowing him away until he got hurt) and never led it in yards.  Brady led the league in TDs five times and four times in yards.  Brady set passing records in the one and only season he played with an elite WR.  Montana played a large portion of his career with the best WR in history, but his career high was 31 TDs three years after Marino threw 48. 
 

So yeah, I think Brady would have done just fine in any era.  He’s the GOAT by a mile.

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

You can’t compare eras, but you can compare how QBs performed relative to their peers.  Montana led the league in TDs twice (once in a shortened season when he threw 17 and another when Marino was blowing him away until he got hurt) and never led it in yards.  Brady led the league in TDs five times and four times in yards.  Brady set passing records in the one and only season he played with an elite WR.  Montana played a large portion of his career with the best WR in history, but his career high was 31 TDs three years after Marino threw 48. 
 

So yeah, I think Brady would have done just fine in any era.  He’s the GOAT by a mile.

Thank you Bill, quality post. I think this is about as close as we can get to fairly comparing eras. I still wonder how TB would fair with different rules in place. But it's all fun hypothetical. About as close as we can get is performance relative to other players.  

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

It's not like Brady suddenly was more physically gifted. He benefitted from rule changes, along with every other QB who played in his era.  Completion % was 10% lower in the mid 80's. Did you think that was just based on talent? It's a bit absurd to think he would just "carve" teams up. His entire life depended on quick passes. His completion % would be down, he would have taken way more shots. I think he would be just fine in that era, but I think Montana would have a much easier time adjusting to Tom's era than Tom Joe's. Even if Tom is better I believe that is the case.

I mean Jack Lambert was 6'4" at 220 and ran a 4.7 40

 

Tremaine Edmunds is 6'5" 250 and runs a 4.5 40

 

You drop the average modern NFL player into the 70-80s game and they're a borderline hall of famer. Put Brady in there and he's probably winning the Super Bowl every single year