How many of the core ST Aces do they keep?

[hemma]

I think I’ll just need to accept the idea that they are all Civil Servants and will be there until they are hired by either NYS or the IRS, at which time, they’ll double-dip.

[Royale with Cheese]

8 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

you could end that post 5 words earlier. 
 

Those plays hang in our mind because they are both shocking and rare. 

Its not just blocked punts which are rare.  Its field position.  Given up an extra 10 or yards on a return multiple times a game can hurt.

 

An opponent average starting field position from the 25 instead of the 35 makes a difference.

[Big Turk]

33 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I agree. I think the focus on special teams is borderline ridiculous.

 

If it was important it would be manned by your best players, not third stringers and rookies.

 

Poyer plays special teams.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Poyer plays special teams.

Yeah, about 30% of ST snaps....because he's too valuable to play more. In Cleveland where they didn't value him he was playing like 75% of ST plays. It's just not that important.

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yeah, about 30% of ST snaps....because he's too valuable to play more. In Cleveland where they didn't value him he was playing like 75% of ST plays. It's just not that important.

 

I think I'll value the opinions of coaches and GMs around the NFL over random dudes on the boards most of whom couldn't describe even basic concepts in the NFL.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Big Turk said:

 

I think I'll value the opinions of coaches and GMs around the NFL over random dudes on the boards most of whom couldn't describe even basic concepts in the NFL.

You do that. 

[mrags]

42 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

you could end that post 5 words earlier. 
 

Those plays hang in our mind because they are both shocking and rare. 

Not to mention that you could lose a game because 2 RBs or WRs or OL get hurt during the game and you have nobody of worth backing them up. All because you wanted Taiwon Freaking Jones dressed in game day because he’s a good gunner. All when you have a kicker and punter that can force a touchback well above the league average. 

[hemma]

7 minutes ago, mrags said:

Not to mention that you could lose a game because 2 RBs or WRs or OL get hurt during the game and you have nobody of worth backing them up. All because you wanted Taiwon Freaking Jones dressed in game day because he’s a good gunner. All when you have a kicker and punter that can force a touchback well above the league average. 

I remember preseason 2010 when Fred Jackson broke a bone in his hand and Marshawn hurt ????? In the same game.

Chan Gailey didn’t have much hair, but everyone wanted that scalp.

 

[Stokes84]

I thought the point of having punt god is that we don’t need special teamers to cover. He’ll just kick touchbacks.

[BillsFanForever19]

They've protected Taiwan Jones both games and Tyler Matakevitch and Siran Neal also sat yesterday. So there's 3 ST Core locks. Found it interesting that they didn't do the same for Kumerow and had Hodgins doing some Special Teams work. I've thought of Kumerow as a lock there after they gave him a new contract. But maybe not depending on how Hodgins has looked to them in Practice, yesterday, and on Friday at Special Teams.

Edited August 21, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Also, keep in mind… if Haak is cut and we go with Araiza, it’s likely going to either be a booming TB or a big return. You’ll need elite gunners like Jones and Neal when a 75 yard punt has a sub-4 second hang time. It’s a real concern while the rookie is developing.

14 minutes ago, Stokes84 said:

I thought the point of having punt god is that we don’t need special teamers to cover. He’ll just kick touchbacks.

Had the Colts just had the PR line up 15 yards back, that could’ve been a huge return…

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Its not just blocked punts which are rare.  Its field position.  Given up an extra 10 or yards on a return multiple times a game can hurt.

 

An opponent average starting field position from the 25 instead of the 35 makes a difference.

 

for sure. Just like missed blocks, missed tackles, wrong routes, dropped balls, etc… all can lose games too. 

[GunnerBill]

You obviously ideally want as many of your special teamers as possible to have a role on your roster beyond just special teams. Of the Bills' "core" STs I think only Taiwan Jones and Tyler Matakevich don't. 

 

Of the rest:

Siran Neal is your backup nickel and plays in certain "big nickel" packages;

Reggie Gilliam is your only fullback and can provide depth at tight end if needed;

Tyrel Dodson is their 3rd linebacker;

Johnson and Hamlin are your backup safeties. 

 

Those guys all deserve their spots on the roster without question when you combine what they offer on offense / defense and special teams. Personally I think Jones is still one of the better gunners in the NFL although, he wasn't quite as good last year as in the past and I do see the "he is 34 he is bound to slow down" argument, but I think after K, P, LS gunners are the most important special teams players. If I have a top 10 gunner who doesn't see the field on offense or defense then I am still holding on to him. Coverage teams matter. And a top gunner plays more snaps than your 5th running back or 6th wide receiver or 6th corner anyway. Sometimes more than all three of those players combined. Matakevich I am less sold has to be here. He is a wedge guy and while yea, he does it well, I am not sure you notice a drop off from a good wedge guy to a bad wedge guy the way you do a good gunner to a bad gunner. But I think the Bills will keep both. 

 

That just leaves Kumerow. I think if there was someone clearly offering more than Kumerow at receiver they would move on from him. I just don't think they believe Hodgins is that yet. I think they see him and Kumerow as pretty neck and neck and so ties go to the better STs player. I'd be perfectly okay moving on from Kumerow. I don't even think he is that good of a special teamer. I actually think Cam Lewis is a better gunner but the numbers at corner mean he is probably less likely to make the roster. The reason Kumerow is sticking is as much because they are thin at outside receiver as because he plays teams. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by GunnerBill

[mrags]

2 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

Haack

Your a Haack

[mrags]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Its not just blocked punts which are rare.  Its field position.  Given up an extra 10 or yards on a return multiple times a game can hurt.

 

An opponent average starting field position from the 25 instead of the 35 makes a difference.

Whats the breakdown of how much a difference it makes when your defense is the number 1 defense in the league. Or when you have an offense that rarely gets pinned back inside their own 30 yard line? 
 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

43 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

for sure. Just like missed blocks, missed tackles, wrong routes, dropped balls, etc… all can lose games too. 

But the core ST guys aren’t really contributing on the offense/defensive field a significant amount as back ups.  Many not at all.

 

My theory is if you’re going to have a 3rd stringer who never really sees the field, look for those who have strong special team’s ability.

[Punching Bag]

40 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

That just leaves Kumerow. I think if there was someone clearly offering more than Kumerow at receiver they would move on from him. I just don't think they believe Hodgins is that yet. I think they see him and Kumerow as pretty neck and neck and so ties go to the better STs player. I'd be perfectly okay moving on from Kumerow. I don't even think he is that good of a special teamer. I actually think Cam Lewis is a better gunner but the numbers at corner mean he is probably less likely to make the roster. The reason Kumerow is sticking is as much because they are thin at outside receiver as because he plays teams. 

 

Kumerow has shown he is a good WR for blocking which is something Hodgins has not shown.

Robert Woods was also a very good WR blocker and this ability to block was discounted by many posters preferring high celing of Sammy "feet of glass" Watkins.

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

They've protected Taiwan Jones both games and Tyler Matakevitch and Siran Neal also sat yesterday. So there's 3 ST Core locks. Found it interesting that they didn't do the same for Kumerow and had Hodgins doing some Special Teams work. I've thought of Kumerow as a lock there after they gave him a new contract. But maybe not depending on how Hodgins has looked to them in Practice, yesterday, and on Friday at Special Teams.

you also have Gilliam, JJ, Dodson…

 

we have a good number of carryover guys even if jones (or someone else) get left behind for a high upside prospect or package player or just better guy at the position. 
 

it’s a balancing act and I’m not saying give no consideration, but I’m also saying ST shouldn’t be primary on the list once you have kickers settled. 

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

you also have Gilliam, JJ, Dodson…

 

we have a good number of carryover guys even if jones (or someone else) get left behind for a high upside prospect or package player or just better guy at the position. 
 

it’s a balancing act and I’m not saying give no consideration, but I’m also saying ST shouldn’t be primary on the list once you have kickers settled. 

 

But Gilliam, JJ and Tyrel Dodson do not play the same position on teams as Taiwan Jones. They are going to keep Jones but even if they didn't the alternatives to him (in terms of guys who have played some gunner and could start opposite Siran Neal) are Kumerow, Cam Lewis and Nick McCloud. 

 

In terms of Matakevich, he generally plays wing on punt team and wedge on return teams both of which Gilliam has also done at various times and they have generally been our two wings on punt team. 

 

Matakevich did try some personal protector a couple of years ago too before JJ took that job and I think he is locked in there as long as he is here.

[BillsFanForever19]

29 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

you also have Gilliam, JJ, Dodson…

 

we have a good number of carryover guys even if jones (or someone else) get left behind for a high upside prospect or package player or just better guy at the position. 
 

it’s a balancing act and I’m not saying give no consideration, but I’m also saying ST shouldn’t be primary on the list once you have kickers settled. 

 

Anyone who thinks Taiwan Jones could be replaced after McDermott specifically protected him by sitting him all Pre-Season is kidding themselves. That never happens for a healthy player who is remotely on the bubble.