SoCal Deek Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Tiberius said: I know, the cry babies are REALLY unhappy now Tried having a regular conversation and you immediately retreat to this stuff? Sheeeesh Edited October 21, 2022 by SoCal Deek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: Tried having a regular conversation and you immediately retreat to this stuff? Sheeeesh Don't bother, @Tiberius won't even commit to the concept that we should not give Nukes to Ukraine, I don't think he is capable of having a regular conversation on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 (edited) 21 hours ago, sherpa said: Quote So you didn't answer the question. Instead you assert that I want to do something that I have never suggested. You simply made it up. Can you answer the question or not? My answer is the central point of my argument. I repeated it to see if you'd actually argue against me. You didn't, you argued against what you wanted to argue against, rather than what I argued (ain't broke, we're getting awesome results, don't change anything). Is my point unreasonable? 21 hours ago, sherpa said: Quote The reason I asked the question is that i am quite familiar with the history of weapons transfers into very unfriendly hands during surrogate war operations. Ah, so you were making a "Gotcha!" post so you could try and mikedrop on me with your knowledge. That's dishonest debating. Is there any reason why I should believe have the expertise you claim to have? Can you prove it? 21 hours ago, sherpa said: Quote I want to know how someone on this site can claim there is adequate oversight, which is what you did. No, I argued that all of what we're doing is working just fine to support Ukraine and we shouldn't change it. I supported my argument with evidence that anybody anywhere can look at for themselves. So they can see if it supports my conclusion. What part of my conclusion is wrong? 21 hours ago, sherpa said: Quote Remember Benghazi? Know what a big part of the CIA presence there was for? I'll give you a hint.......It's related to this subject. So the CIA lets you in on their operations? And your posting about it here, where anybody can read about it? That's not very responsible of the CIA. 21 hours ago, sherpa said: That is why I asked the question. Good! I'm looking forward to your reply. We're both honest guys so this should be a constructive conversation. Edited October 22, 2022 by Coffeesforclosers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted October 21, 2022 Share Posted October 21, 2022 I asked a simple question, based on something you authored. I asked how you were aware that "the current level of oversight is just fine," a claim that you made. You didn't answer. Instead you said that I wanted t fix something that isn't broke, which is nonsense and never a claim I have made. That is your invention. My assertion is that there is no way that someone here has any idea of what level of oversight is occurring with this massive transfer of extremely sophisticated weaponry to an area known for gross corruption, so if you do, I'd be very interested to hear the basis for your confidence. You still haven't answered that. As background for my view, and regarding what has happened in the near past, the US and other countries have provided weapons to many other parties. A dangerous number of those weapons have been traded on the black market and ended up in the hands of really ad people who intended to use them for really bad outcomes. The industry I was in was made aware that a number of shoulder mounted anti aircraft weapons were in that market, for sale to any bidder, and that area of Libya was a trading location, and that the US was trying to get them off the market. You can connect the dots. The point is, that it is nearly impossible to stop this trade, and I have no doubt that someone in the supply chain has come upon a windfall profit, and that somewhere in some province of China, Russia or Iran, sophisticated weapons are being studied and reverse engineered, as has been goin on for decades, The debacle that was the Afghanistan withdrawal gives me cause for great concern over this administration's "oversight" capability. Thus the question I posed. What evidence do you have to claim the "oversight" is just dandy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 23 hours ago, BillStime said: Priceless. Everyone dies, priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 22, 2022 Author Share Posted October 22, 2022 18 hours ago, Tenhigh said: Don't bother, @Tiberius won't even commit to the concept that we should not give Nukes to Ukraine, I don't think he is capable of having a regular conversation on the topic. I am, some, like you, are not worth the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted October 22, 2022 Share Posted October 22, 2022 3 hours ago, Tiberius said: I am, some, like you, are not worth the effort. Why am I not worth the effort? It's straight forward, no? Oddly, you have put in a ton of effort NOT to answer a simple yes or no question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 Seeing a lot of this on twitter, hope it's true 7 hours ago, Tenhigh said: Why am I not worth the effort? It's straight forward, no? Oddly, you have put in a ton of effort NOT to answer a simple yes or no question. You can't even state the simple relevance of the question, which means there is no relevance to me. Pointless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 Ya, lets negotiate with people that do this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 On 10/21/2022 at 6:16 PM, sherpa said: What evidence do you have to claim the "oversight" is just dandy? The results, demonstrated over time. Again, if it's not broke, don't fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said: The results, demonstrated over time. Again, if it's not broke, don't fix it. The results have not been demonstrated over time, and the Pentagon, Interpol, the EU and of course the Russians have do not share your view as yet, and have expressed the same concern that I have regarding oversight of the weapons delivery and subsequent supply line integrity to Ukrainian military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 23, 2022 Author Share Posted October 23, 2022 6 hours ago, sherpa said: The results have not been demonstrated over time, and the Pentagon, Interpol, the EU and of course the Russians have do not share your view as yet, and have expressed the same concern that I have regarding oversight of the weapons delivery and subsequent supply line integrity to Ukrainian military. You have proof of widespread violations to the integrity of the supply lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 37 minutes ago, Tiberius said: You have proof of widespread violations to the integrity of the supply lines? If you have read the last couple pages in this thread, you wouldn't ask this question. What I said at the very beginning of this aid effort, many, many months ago, is that I was quite concerned about these weapons getting into the wrong hands, and the high probability of technology transfer. Those two things happen every time there is a surrogate style war with weapons provided by other countries. Further, the weapons that make it to the black market do not show up during the supply because it would expose the corruption and end the supply line access. That's how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 11 hours ago, sherpa said: If you have read the last couple pages in this thread, you wouldn't ask this question. What I said at the very beginning of this aid effort, many, many months ago, is that I was quite concerned about these weapons getting into the wrong hands, and the high probability of technology transfer. Those two things happen every time there is a surrogate style war with weapons provided by other countries. Further, the weapons that make it to the black market do not show up during the supply because it would expose the corruption and end the supply line access. That's how it works. No proof? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 23 minutes ago, Tiberius said: No proof? The is a message board and not a court of law so what exactly is the burden of proof here? A poster, Sherpa, that has expressed views based on previous personal and professional experience that weapons transfers like those happening with Ukraine have a lot of security and handling gaps like chain of custody tracking if I might mention one. And that based on firsthand experience with such transfers its likely this applies to weapons and technology transfers here where some items might find there way into the black market. Add in a known high level of corruption in Ukraine and the US administration's effort to block all calls and efforts for oversight and accounting and I find there's a high probability that the conclusion is very plausible. Especially considering its run by an administration that had little to no concern about leaving some $60B of US weapons behind in Afghanistan for the Taliban. I suspect a lot of those weapons have ended up on the black market too as the regime there tries to raise some cash to meet expenses. I mean, as for "proof", do you expect somebody from the civilian US government or the Pentagon to confess and expose their incompetence and lack of accountability or some on-the-ball investigative reporter to expose the mess? Or Zelensky or some connected Ukrainian oligarch telling us he's made 100's of millions off US weapons transfers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 4 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: The is a message board and not a court of law so what exactly is the burden of proof here? A poster, Sherpa, that has expressed views based on previous personal and professional experience that weapons transfers like those happening with Ukraine have a lot of security and handling gaps like chain of custody tracking if I might mention one. And that based on firsthand experience with such transfers its likely this applies to weapons and technology transfers here where some items might find there way into the black market. Add in a known high level of corruption in Ukraine and the US administration's effort to block all calls and efforts for oversight and accounting and I find there's a high probability that the conclusion is very plausible. Especially considering its run by an administration that had little to no concern about leaving some $60B of US weapons behind in Afghanistan for the Taliban. I suspect a lot of those weapons have ended up on the black market too as the regime there tries to raise some cash to meet expenses. I mean, as for "proof", do you expect somebody from the civilian US government or the Pentagon to confess and expose their incompetence and lack of accountability or some on-the-ball investigative reporter to expose the mess? Or Zelensky or some connected Ukrainian oligarch telling us he's made 100's of millions off US weapons transfers? Still no proof? Ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 It's hilarious. Most Dems couldn't even have told you Ukraine was a country, much less where it was on a map, and now it's suddenly the most important country there is, even more so than the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 44 minutes ago, Doc said: It's hilarious. Most Dems couldn't even have told you Ukraine was a country, much less where it was on a map, and now it's suddenly the most important country there is, even more so than the US. You don't think it's important? You guys really never say anything bad about Putin or anything good about democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 22 minutes ago, Tiberius said: You don't think it's important? You guys really never say anything bad about Putin or anything good about democracy. Sure we do. It just falls on deaf and dumb ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 On 10/22/2022 at 9:08 PM, Tiberius said: Seeing a lot of this on twitter, hope it's true You can't even state the simple relevance of the question, which means there is no relevance to me. Pointless I have, repeatedly. How far are you willing to go in your support of Ukraine? Why are you so afraid to answer the simple question, nukes or no nukes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 Just now, Tenhigh said: I have, repeatedly. How far are you willing to go in your support of Ukraine? Why are you so afraid to answer the simple question, nukes or no nukes? I have not seen anyone suggest nukes to Ukraine, so no point in answering your silly question. Keep asking, though 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 34 minutes ago, Tiberius said: You don't think it's important? You guys really never say anything bad about Putin or anything good about democracy. Democracy good putin bad. Should we give Ukraine nukes to defend themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 11 minutes ago, Doc said: Sure we do. It just falls on deaf and dumb ears. No, you guys are rather silent on those points Just now, Tenhigh said: Democracy good putin bad. Should we give Ukraine nukes to defend themselves? Should we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 Just now, Tiberius said: I have not seen anyone suggest nukes to Ukraine, so no point in answering your silly question. Keep asking, though 😂 This is an oddly cowardly response for someone who talks so tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 35 minutes ago, Tiberius said: You don't think it's important? You guys really never say anything bad about Putin or anything good about democracy. two things can be true. Russian shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine. Ukraine is also a highly corrupt country and to say otherwise is a total lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 Just now, aristocrat said: two things can be true. Russian shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine. Ukraine is also a highly corrupt country and to say otherwise is a total lie. More corrupt than what? You think the USA is really corrupt, also, correct? 1 minute ago, Tenhigh said: This is an oddly cowardly response for someone who talks so tough. How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 1 minute ago, Tiberius said: No, you guys are rather silent on those points Should we? No, we absolutely should not. Are you afraid to answer because you think by rejecting the idea someone will accuse you of being pro Putin? If so, you are the only one doing that. Just now, Tiberius said: More corrupt than what? You think the USA is really corrupt, also, correct? How so? You have been loudly banging the table to give Ukraine whatever they want in the war aid, but refuse to answer this one simple question. Seems cowardly to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Tiberius said: Still no proof? Ok And you have no proof everything is on the up-and-up either. That being equal, I throw more weight behind the opinion of somebody that has articulated a level of understanding and experience about the process than you have, which is apparently nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tenhigh said: No, we absolutely should not. Are you afraid to answer because you think by rejecting the idea someone will accuse you of being pro Putin? If so, you are the only one doing that. You have been loudly banging the table to give Ukraine whatever they want in the war aid, but refuse to answer this one simple question. Seems cowardly to me. Oh well. I'd say appeasement is cowardly, but I suspect the isolation sentiment has a darker aspect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tiberius said: More corrupt than what? More corrupt than 120 other countries, according to this: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021/index/ukr 1 minute ago, Tiberius said: Oh well. I'd say appeasement is cowardly, but I suspect the isolation sentiment has a darker aspect So you are saying we should give nukes to Ukraine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Doc said: It's hilarious. Most Dems couldn't even have told you Ukraine was a country, much less where it was on a map, and now it's suddenly the most important country there is, even more so than the US. ironically it has been right in the middle of White House politics For a decade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 33 minutes ago, Tenhigh said: More corrupt than 120 other countries, according to this: https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021/index/ukr So you are saying we should give nukes to Ukraine? I'm not answering that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 4 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: ironically it has been right in the middle of White House politics For a decade But until the geniuses in Biden administration decided to raise it to a direct "strategic", disrupt the balance of power that kept a relative peace, and commit to some $50B in aid to the effort there wasn't much impact. And anybody that professes the total innocence of any party involved in this conflict is oblivious to how real-life confrontations escalate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 38 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: And you have no proof everything is on the up-and-up either. That being equal, I throw more weight behind the opinion of somebody that has articulated a level of understanding and experience about the process than you have, which is apparently nothing. Sounds like it was a made up slander against the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tiberius said: I'm not answering that I know you won't, probably because you are pro-Putin. 😮 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 Just now, Tenhigh said: I know you won't, probably because you are pro-Putin. 😮 Putin is scum. So is Trump for that matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 12 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Putin is scum. So is Trump for that matter And you wouldn't give Ukraine nukes to defend themselves from a scum Putin?!?!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 Just now, Tenhigh said: And you wouldn't give Ukraine nukes to defend themselves from a scum Putin?!?!?!? Would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted October 24, 2022 Share Posted October 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Would you? #$%& no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 24, 2022 Author Share Posted October 24, 2022 1 minute ago, Tenhigh said: #$%& no. Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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