Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

 

I’m sorry Tibs. I’m not following either you or Adam Kinzinger. What about Mr Trumps tweet has your knickers in a twist? Seems clear headed and reasonable to me. Are you concerned that a peace accord could be reached that will end this nonsense?

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m sorry Tibs. I’m not following either you or Adam Kinzinger. What about Mr Trumps tweet has your knickers in a twist? Seems clear headed and reasonable to me. Are you concerned that a peace accord could be reached that will end this nonsense?

Oh, like how if he was President Putin would not have invaded? What crap. 

 

He would have allowed Ukraine to die 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Oh, like how if he was President Putin would not have invaded? What crap. 

 

He would have allowed Ukraine to die 

So THAT’s the part you didn’t like? Alrighty then. 

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

So THAT’s the part you didn’t like? Alrighty then. 

I also don't trust him as being impartial. He already tried shaking down Ukraine, so he can't be trusted 

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

I also don't trust him as being impartial. He already tried shaking down Ukraine, so he can't be trusted 

OK…that’s valid. It’s totally wrong but at least there’s some measure of thought behind it. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Oh, like how if he was President Putin would not have invaded? What crap. 

 

He would have allowed Ukraine to die 

Most likely Trump would have given Russia assurances that Ukraine would not be added to NATO and the war would have been avoided and Ukraine would have gone on their merry way as an independent democracy and would not be engaged in a bloody  and costly conflict.  There would have been no sanctions and Europe and other impacted countries would not have been harmed.   The inflation, and supply disruptions the world is experiencing would not have happened.

 

But Biden won the election, brought back Victoria Nuland the official who engineered the Madian coup in 2014, to finish the job, refused to engage in any meaningful discussions, and flooded the region with arms.  Then Russia invaded.  And in April when parties like Turkey had brokered a peace settlement between Russia and Ukraine, Boris Johnson was dispatched to Kiev to deliver the message to Zelensky that the US and UK would not allow any truce or peace deal and the war would continue.  And it goes on. 

 

So yeah, maybe it could have been avoided or at a minimum ended already.  I should add, anyone thinking the main US interests are in supporting Ukrainian democracy was dropped on their head too many times.  The US interest is to weaken Russia and maintain the uni polar world order both Moscow and Beijing and other countries threaten.  Ukrainian blood and territory is just the proxy and acceptable sacrifice to support that goal.

Edited September 29, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

9 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Most likely Trump would have given Russia assurances that Ukraine would not be added to NATO and the war would have been avoided and Ukraine would have gone on their merry way as an independent democracy and would not be engaged in a bloody  and costly conflict.   

More likely he would of done what he did do, praised Putin for attacking another country. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

27 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

More likely he would of done what he did do, praised Putin for attacking another country. 

A 4 year stretch with no new conflicts, with conflicts both before and after, suggest you're wrong.

[B-Man]

 

 

Last gasp: Kremlin announces Putin annexation ceremony tomorrow

 

 

https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2022/09/29/last-gasp-kremlin-announces-putin-annexation-ceremony-tomorrow-n499728

 

.

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

A 4 year stretch with no new conflicts, with conflicts both before and after, suggest you're wrong.

You are wrong, there was conflict 

 

You don't know what you are talking about 

[aristocrat]

 

[Big Blitz]

13 hours ago, aristocrat said:

 

 

 

Wow!  A top officer in Brandon's army gave intelligence to Russia!

 

Holy s.......this must be all over the news!

 

Bill Stime most be losing whatever is left of his mind!  

 

This is unconscionable.

 

 

 

 

Hahahahahaha

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Big Blitz

[Tiberius]

17 hours ago, aristocrat said:

 

The indictment names Jamie Lee Henry, an Army major at Fort Bragg who had a secret security clearance, and Henry’s spouse, Anna Gabrielian, a Russian-speaker who is affiliated with Johns Hopkins, according to a Hopkins webpage.

They are charged with offering sensitive information to an undercover FBI agent who was posing as a representative of the Russian Embassy.

The indictment says the FBI learned that Gabrielian had volunteered assistance to Russia through its embassy in Washington. 

 

 

 

First off, if they are gulity send them away for a long time or give them up to Russian conscription 

 

Secondly, where is all the screaming about this being entrapment? 

[aristocrat]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

The indictment names Jamie Lee Henry, an Army major at Fort Bragg who had a secret security clearance, and Henry’s spouse, Anna Gabrielian, a Russian-speaker who is affiliated with Johns Hopkins, according to a Hopkins webpage.

They are charged with offering sensitive information to an undercover FBI agent who was posing as a representative of the Russian Embassy.

The indictment says the FBI learned that Gabrielian had volunteered assistance to Russia through its embassy in Washington. 

 

 

 

First off, if they are gulity send them away for a long time or give them up to Russian conscription 

 

Secondly, where is all the screaming about this being entrapment? 

 

Because they reached out to the Russians to start this whole thing off. Just emailed the embassy saying they wanted to help.  Now, had the FBI injected themselves into their relationship before the emails to the embassy or encouraged them to then it would be entrapment. Difference is these two iniated the entire thing. FBI found out and put a stop to it...job seems to have been done well.  Learn what entrapment is bud. 

[Tiberius]

Just now, aristocrat said:

 

Because they reached out to the Russians to start this whole thing off. Just emailed the embassy saying they wanted to help.  Now, had the FBI injected themselves into their relationship before the emails to the embassy or encouraged them to then it would be entrapment. Difference is these two iniated the entire thing. FBI found out and put a stop to it...job seems to have been done well.  Learn what entrapment is bud. 

so reaching out to Russia .like saying through the media, "Russia if you are listening..." 

 

Same thing, you need to understand that buddy 

[aristocrat]

Just now, Tiberius said:

so reaching out to Russia .like saying through the media, "Russia if you are listening..." 

 

Same thing, you need to understand that buddy 

 

Yes saying something out loud is exactly the same thing. Emailing a foreign country to give intel on our troops is exactly the same as randomly saying hey can you find all these classified docs hillary was careless with is exactly the same. 

[Tiberius]

Just now, aristocrat said:

 

Yes saying something out loud is exactly the same thing. Emailing a foreign country to give intel on our troops is exactly the same as randomly saying hey can you find all these classified docs hillary was careless with is exactly the same. 

Reaching out to them. 

 

I know, it's Saint Donald, so he gets a pass. Sorry Buddy, you are not consistent 

[aristocrat]

Just now, Tiberius said:

Reaching out to them. 

 

I know, it's Saint Donald, so he gets a pass. Sorry Buddy, you are not consistent 

 

So did he actually speak to anyone about these emails?  There is a difference.  Biden said the pandemic was over and they had to walk it back and say it wasnt. Is what trump said wrong? Sure. But that's about all it was

[Tiberius]

Just now, aristocrat said:

 

So did he actually speak to anyone about these emails?  There is a difference.  Biden said the pandemic was over and they had to walk it back and say it wasnt. Is what trump said wrong? Sure. But that's about all it was

Huh? 

[aristocrat]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Huh? 

 

They say stupid ***** all the time. Difference between a bad joke that trump was making and something criminal. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:46 PM, Tiberius said:

You are wrong, there was conflict 

 

You don't know what you are talking about 

I'm listening.  Maybe I overlooked something?  What new military engagements were initiated during the Trump administration?  And to state it perfectly clear, the original statement was "new" engagements.  Not continuing or expanding or contracting anything that might have started under Bush or Obama or earlier. 

[Big Blitz]

I personally, can't wait to see the next profile pics

 

 

 

 

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, Big Blitz said:

I personally, can't wait to see the next profile pics

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

17 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I'm listening.  Maybe I overlooked something?  What new military engagements were initiated during the Trump administration?  And to state it perfectly clear, the original statement was "new" engagements.  Not continuing or expanding or contracting anything that might have started under Bush or Obama or earlier. 

Trump is a Putin stooge. He is not for the USA, he is for himself. 

 

But you know he did come within a hairsbreath of starting a war with Iran. You know that? And why? 

 

You know why? 

 

[Tiberius]

Well, at least the trapped soldiers can celebrate the annexation Putin just announced

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

The Ukrainians have taken Lyman. Looks like the Russian garrison in Lyman were mostly veteran DPR/LPR units and soldiers of the Regular Russian army. They held out for about month, so much tougher customers than the Russian forces that were smashed in Kharkiv.

 

Anyway, Ukraine mostly encircled the city, and the garrison tried to break out toward Russian lines. The Ukrainians controlled the only road out though, and literally blasted them to pieces. You can find the pictures and videos on your own if you want, but they are nightmare type stuff. 

[B-Man]

 

[Warcodered]

14 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

It is an interesting question, part of the issue I always see with the whole thing is that it's always like the negotiations are with some unhinged crazy person so you'd better let him have something or god knows what he'll do. But that seems like a terrible idea if one party doesn't have to cede that they've lost/are losing because they're deranged then how do you ever actually stop them?

[Coffeesforclosers]

3 hours ago, Warcodered said:

It is an interesting question, part of the issue I always see with the whole thing is that it's always like the negotiations are with some unhinged crazy person so you'd better let him have something or god knows what he'll do. But that seems like a terrible idea if one party doesn't have to cede that they've lost/are losing because they're deranged then how do you ever actually stop them?

 

Great question.

 

The best answer we've got right now is you beat the crazy person so badly they come to their senses. Because you're gambling they arent actually crazy, theyre just pretending to be crazy in order to scare people into concessions.

 

Otherwise, youre just engaging in appeasement. The problem with socialism is that eventually, you run out of other people's money. The problem with appeasement is that eventually, you run out of other people's land. 

 

 

[Tiberius]

Lyman was declared to be Russian on September 30, it fell to Ukraine on Oct 1 

 

Nice 

A legit suicide? 

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[B-Man]

Long, informative read.

 

How the War in Ukraine Might End

New Yorker, by Keith Gessen

 

FTA:

 

“Branislav is very worried,” Goemans told me . Goemans was also worried, though his hypothetical time line was more extended. He believes that the new Russian reinforcements, however ill-trained and ill-equipped, and the onset of an early winter will pause the Ukrainian campaign and save the Russians, for the moment.

 

“People think it’s going to be over quickly, but, unfortunately, war doesn’t work like that,” he said. But he also believes that Ukraine will resume its offensive in the spring, at which point the same dynamic and the same dangers will be back in play.

 

“For a war to end,” Goemans said, “the minimum demands of at least one of the sides must change.” This is the first rule of war termination. And we have not yet reached a point where war aims have changed enough for a peace deal to be possible.

 

 

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/how-the-war-in-ukraine-might-end

 

.

[Coffeesforclosers]

On 10/2/2022 at 10:37 AM, B-Man said:

Long, informative read.

 

How the War in Ukraine Might End

New Yorker, by Keith Gessen

 

FTA:

 

“Branislav is very worried,” Goemans told me . Goemans was also worried, though his hypothetical time line was more extended. He believes that the new Russian reinforcements, however ill-trained and ill-equipped, and the onset of an early winter will pause the Ukrainian campaign and save the Russians, for the moment.

 

“People think it’s going to be over quickly, but, unfortunately, war doesn’t work like that,” he said. But he also believes that Ukraine will resume its offensive in the spring, at which point the same dynamic and the same dangers will be back in play.

 

“For a war to end,” Goemans said, “the minimum demands of at least one of the sides must change.” This is the first rule of war termination. And we have not yet reached a point where war aims have changed enough for a peace deal to be possible.

 

 

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/how-the-war-in-ukraine-might-end

 

.

 

Thanks for posting.  Saw some odd stuff today cross-posted from the Russian Twitterverse. Take or discard as you want, but it speaks towards Russia's ability to negotiate a peace. 

 

Apparently, the so-called "referendums" passed by Luhansk, Donetsk, Kherson and Zaporozhia don't really take effect until 2026.  So they remain "independent" but Russia-aligned states until 2026, when they are formally annexed into Russia. 

 

Meaning that Russia can cut them loose at any point until then, without legally handing over sovereign Russia territory. 

 

Again, just some twitter stuff, so we'll see. 

[Big Blitz]

 

[Tiberius]

oh brother 

 

 

[CoudyBills]

On 12/5/2021 at 10:42 AM, All_Pro_Bills said:

Other than Sevastopol in Crimea Russia has no strategic interest in Ukraine other than discouraging NATO from expanding and housing troops in the country.  It's all posturing right now.  On both sides.  NATO is trying to pretend it is still relevant and Russia is bluffing a build-up to assess the West's response strategy in the event something "hot" starts.

 

Can anyone clearly articulate the US security interest here?  Absent any patronizing talk about supporting democracy.  Can you find Ukraine on a map without the country names shown?  

We should have honored the agreement we had with Russia rather than pushing Nato to their doorstep.  Turns out the ethnic Russians in Ukraine are loyal to Russia, go figure.

[Tiberius]

12 hours ago, CoudyBills said:

We should have honored the agreement we had with Russia rather than pushing Nato to their doorstep.  Turns out the ethnic Russians in Ukraine are loyal to Russia, go figure.

But once Putin went all Hitler on Ukraine it was right for us to help destroy his fascist puke army, right? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

28 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

But once Putin went all Hitler on Ukraine it was right for us to help destroy his fascist puke army, right? 

Hitler didn't have 6.400 nuclear weapons pointed at us.  And however we got here, is "winning" worth the risk of facilitating the events that will move this conflict to escalate out of control to the point where all out nuclear war is possible which will result in the end of the world and the deaths of all of us posting here and everyone we care about?  Over who controls Donbas?  In the big picture of things, an insignificant province in an insignificant country.  Anyone that thinks there's a winning strategy in there somewhere is delusional.

Edited October 4, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[L Ron Burgundy]

13 hours ago, CoudyBills said:

We should have honored the agreement we had with Russia rather than pushing Nato to their doorstep.  Turns out the ethnic Russians in Ukraine are loyal to Russia, go figure.

Some are loyal.  Not all certainly.  If a real referendum were held in the east I'm confident most would not want to secede.  

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Hitler didn't have 6.400 nuclear weapons pointed at us.  And however we got here, is "winning" worth the risk of facilitating the events that will move this conflict to escalate out of control to the point where all out nuclear war is possible which will result in the end of the world and the deaths of all of us posting here and everyone we care about?  Over who controls Donbas?  In the big picture of things, an insignificant province in an insignificant country.  Anyone that thinks there's a winning strategy in there somewhere is delusional.

So you would of just let him do a genocide on Ukraine because you feared he nuke us? That's your failed appeasement position? 

 

Oh, and Ukraine is winning