Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

A fraud of a superpower based on petrodollars, mountains of rusting Soviet weapons and a few hi tech toys, and bluffing.

So I guess the question is why doesn’t the west seem to know that? 

[sherpa]

40 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

So I guess the question is why doesn’t the west seem to know that? 

 

They still have  lot of really lethal stuff.

[SoCal Deek]

5 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

They still have  lot of really lethal stuff.

I assume you mean nuclear weapons?

[Coffeesforclosers]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

So I guess the question is why doesn’t the west seem to know that? 

 

We only just learned. Instead of knocking over some tiny, 3rd world country, Russia thought it could roll over a real military supported by a determined, patriotic people and their government.

 

Of the three things I mentioned, the bluff part was the most important.  Nobody, not Bush, Obama, or Trump ever called it, and Biden only got to call it by accident.

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

We only just learned. Instead of knocking over some tiny, 3rd world country, Russia thought it could roll over a real military supported by a determined, patriotic people and their government.

 

Of the three things I mentioned, the bluff part was the most important.  Nobody, not Bush, Obama, or Trump ever called it, and Biden only got to call it by accident.

So we’re paying millions and millions of my tax dollars for satellites and so called intelligence and we didn’t know their capabilities? Really? I’m guessing we actually did, and nobody wanted to say it. Far easier for the military industrial complex to sell arms if they can convince the legislature that Russia is a super power. 

[Warcodered]

6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

So we’re paying millions and millions of my tax dollars for satellites and so called intelligence and we didn’t know their capabilities? Really? I’m guessing we actually did, and nobody wanted to say it. Far easier for the military industrial complex to sell arms if they can convince the legislature that Russia is a super power. 

Only one part of their military actually has to work for them to stay an obnoxious boulder in the path of world progress.

[SoCal Deek]

4 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Only one part of their military actually has to work for them to stay an obnoxious boulder in the path of world progress.

I completely disagree. We’re watching a pretty nice country be shelled to dust for NOTHING….and not a single nuclear weapon has left the launch pad. 

[Warcodered]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I completely disagree. We’re watching a pretty nice country be shelled to dust for NOTHING….and not a single nuclear weapon has left the launch pad. 

Why would they use nuclear weapons in this war? Are you saying they would never use them, so we'd be free to intervene without Armageddon hanging over our heads?

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

Why would they use nuclear weapons in this war? Are you saying they would never use them, so we'd be free to intervene without Armageddon hanging over our heads?

They wouldn’t use them ! Which is why our response to this unprovoked attack on a sovereign country has been nothing short of pathetic. 

[sherpa]

5 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

So we’re paying millions and millions of my tax dollars for satellites and so called intelligence and we didn’t know their capabilities? Really? I’m guessing we actually did, and nobody wanted to say it. Far easier for the military industrial complex to sell arms if they can convince the legislature that Russia is a super power. 

 

It isn't that simple.

The Russians have a lot of very capable military equipment.

Their weapons are first tier in almost every area.

Intel only gets you so far. You have little information on their command and control and how they integrate forces until you see those in action, and that has been pathetic.

The problem is that incompetence cannot be assumed.

 

There have always been hints of it.

For example, when the then Soviets shot down KAL 007 in 1983, we had the audio of the entire operation from monitoring assets. I remember listening to the translation within a few days and was shocked at how incompetent it sounded. 

Absolutely nothing like our integration.

Of course they lied about the entire thing, but that's the way that country has always done things.

Still, their "stuff," always stolen from our designs, is first rate in almost every area, carrier aviation being the one true exception.

 

They have no professional enlisted group, unlike our NCO personnel.

They clearly do not train for damage control.

Because of money constraints, their pilots fly way less than ours do, to the point of really not being able to be mission effective.

It seems they have very few precision guided munitions. No ground to air coordination.

 

Nonetheless, you can't assume incapability.

 

 

[Warcodered]

4 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

They wouldn’t use them ! Which is why our response to this unprovoked attack on a sovereign country has been nothing short of pathetic. 

That's an awfully big gamble to take.

[Tiberius]

9 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

They wouldn’t use them ! Which is why our response to this unprovoked attack on a sovereign country has been nothing short of pathetic. 

Yes

[BillStime]

 ‘Smart,’ ‘Savvy’ and “Genius’

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

6 hours ago, Warcodered said:

That's an awfully big gamble to take.

And taking the risk of a potential nuclear exchange to directly engage in a war for non-strategic interests isn't good policy.     

[BillStime]

22 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

And taking the risk of a potential nuclear exchange to directly engage in a war for non-strategic interests isn't good policy.     

Non strategic?

 

How much does Putin pay you?

[All_Pro_Bills]

5 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Non strategic?

 

How much does Putin pay you?

Putin?  Stop playing the village idiot here.  But okay, articulate the U.S. strategic interest in Ukraine beyond the democracy myth.  What is so strategic and important to put the lives of US service personnel at risk?

Edited April 21, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[BillStime]

Just now, All_Pro_Bills said:

Putin?  Stop playing the village idiot here.  But okay, articulate the U.S. strategic interest in Ukraine beyond the democracy myth.   

It’s not a myth to our NATO allies

 

PS: Putin sends his love

[All_Pro_Bills]

2 minutes ago, BillStime said:

It’s not a myth to our NATO allies

 

PS: Putin sends his love

I asked about American strategic interests.  What is so important to risk a nuclear exchange and the lives of our military personnel to get involved in a direct confrontation?  What strategic asset or support does Ukraine supply to America?  What difference in the lives of American's would it make if Ukraine was independent, or aligned with the West, or aligned with Russia?       

[SoCal Deek]

59 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

And taking the risk of a potential nuclear exchange to directly engage in a war for non-strategic interests isn't good policy.     

So you just stay out of it altogether. What we’re doing now is ridiculous.

[BillStime]

23 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I asked about American strategic interests.  What is so important to risk a nuclear exchange and the lives of our military personnel to get involved in a direct confrontation?  What strategic asset or support does Ukraine supply to America?  What difference in the lives of American's would it make if Ukraine was independent, or aligned with the West, or aligned with Russia?       

 

So the world should just sit idly by watching a dictator destroy a sovereign country that sits as a boundary between communism and democracy?

 

I'm sorry the cult has conditioned you to think the only way to WIN is to implement a right wing authoritarian model for the United States.

 

It's no secret that authoritarians is on the rise here (thank you Trump voters) and around the globe...

 

We will stop you.

 

 

 

 

 

[Westside]

1 minute ago, BillStime said:

 

 

You will do whatever china tells you to do.

[Tiberius]

1 minute ago, Westside said:

You will do whatever china tells you to do.

Quiet 

 

 

[Niagara Bill]

40 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I asked about American strategic interests.  What is so important to risk a nuclear exchange and the lives of our military personnel to get involved in a direct confrontation?  What strategic asset or support does Ukraine supply to America?  What difference in the lives of American's would it make if Ukraine was independent, or aligned with the West, or aligned with Russia?       

Will Russia ever be weaker than right now. Waiting never makes sense unless one of two positions are known. 

1. You are not prepared or capable today...

2. The conflict duration and goal is known and acceptable 

 

America will be affected, see 1939 to 1942.

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

3 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

So the world should just sit idly by watching a dictator destroy a sovereign country that sits as a boundary between communism and democracy?

 

I'm sorry the cult has conditioned you to think the only way to WIN is to implement a right wing authoritarian model for the United States.

 

It's no secret that authoritarians is on the rise here (thank you Trump voters) and around the globe...

 

We will stop you.

 

 

 

 

 

You can post as many ridiculous Putin references as you want.  Frankly, its beyond stupid.  Russia can't even beat a 3rd rate power in a direct confrontation but they've infiltrated and control aspects of the US government and the public.  Who could believe such nonsense?  I guess, you and lots of other mystical thinkers.

 

And sit by idly?  That's not what I said and you know it.  I asked what strategic interest Ukraine represents to the U.S.?  But you keep ducking the question.  What is so critical to our interests that some encourage our military to become involved directly?  And risk a potential nuclear exchanges if things escalate out of control.  What if Russia wins here?  What if the Ukrainians prevail?  What happens if the mostly likely outcome occurs and they negotiate some sort of compromise?  What is going to be different for Americans in any of those scenarios? 

 

Now I ask all of this with the belief that with more effort from all involved parties, a little extra diplomacy and negotiation of a mutually beneficial agreement that satisfied all interested parties could have reached that avoided this terrible conflict and loss of life.  Along with avoiding all the 2nd and 3rd order consequences that have been set in motion by the war, the economic and social disaster, and the sanctions that will likely impact the entire world in a very negative way.  A lot of bad events have been set in motion that at this point can't be stopped.  So ring up one more in the loss column for Washington's nation building effort.

[SoCal Deek]

I’ll say it again…this is beyond ridiculous now! What our fearless and feeble leader forecasted as a small incursion has now gone on for two months with MILLIONS of innocent people fleeing their homes and HUNDREDS of buildings destroyed all over a large country. What the heck is going one here? Where are the adults? Where are the world’s diplomats? What are any of these people good for? Either get involved and stop this madness or get out and let it run it’s course. But to suggest you give a rats arse about the existential threat to ‘democracy’ while you dribble in the least amount of support as politically correctly possible while all the while buying gas from the aggressor is beyond pathetic. 

[BillStime]

31 minutes ago, Westside said:

You will do whatever china tells you to do.

 

Yeah... no.  Another hollow talking point for the cult.

 

Hope you win with it...

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

10 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

Will Russia ever be weaker than right now. Waiting never makes sense unless one of two positions are known. 

1. You are not prepared or capable today...

2. The conflict duration and goal is known and acceptable 

 

America will be affected, see 1939 to 1942.

 

 

So apply those lessons of the past to current scenarios you believe look similar and assume a similar outcome if you don't act?   Kind of hypothetical based on your assessment that you can accurately forecast the future.  What if you're wrong and acting now makes the future worse than if you did nothing?  What if acting now leads to nuclear war that destroys humanity 5 years from now.  What if not acting leads to world peace and prosperity for the foreseeable future?  You can't know the  answer.  So its an unknown risk either way.   

[Westside]

57 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

Yeah... no.  Another hollow talking point for the cult.

 

Hope you win with it...

 

 

You know it’s true. That’s why you keep calling people putin supporters or cult members. It’s you who is in a cult, china owns you and your feeble minded leader. Your deflection isn’t working anymore. 

[B-Man]

Back to the thread

 

 

Russia Is Fighting the Ukraine War on Five Fronts: Where Are They Winning?

 

 “Russia is actually fighting on five fronts: Military, Propaganda, Diplomatic, Domestic, and Economic.

 

Let’s take a brief (well, as brief as possible…) look at each one and see how Moscow is doing.”

 

 

https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2022/04/20/russia-fighting-the-ukraine-war-on-five-fronts-where-are-they-winning-part-i-n1591378

 

.

[TH3]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You can post as many ridiculous Putin references as you want.  Frankly, its beyond stupid.  Russia can't even beat a 3rd rate power in a direct confrontation but they've infiltrated and control aspects of the US government and the public.  Who could believe such nonsense?  I guess, you and lots of other mystical thinkers.

 

And sit by idly?  That's not what I said and you know it.  I asked what strategic interest Ukraine represents to the U.S.?  But you keep ducking the question.  What is so critical to our interests that some encourage our military to become involved directly?  And risk a potential nuclear exchanges if things escalate out of control.  What if Russia wins here?  What if the Ukrainians prevail?  What happens if the mostly likely outcome occurs and they negotiate some sort of compromise?  What is going to be different for Americans in any of those scenarios? 

 

Now I ask all of this with the belief that with more effort from all involved parties, a little extra diplomacy and negotiation of a mutually beneficial agreement that satisfied all interested parties could have reached that avoided this terrible conflict and loss of life.  Along with avoiding all the 2nd and 3rd order consequences that have been set in motion by the war, the economic and social disaster, and the sanctions that will likely impact the entire world in a very negative way.  A lot of bad events have been set in motion that at this point can't be stopped.  So ring up one more in the loss column for Washington's nation building effort.

What an incoherent mess

[BillStime]

3 minutes ago, Westside said:

You know it’s true. That’s why you keep calling people putin supporters or cult members. It’s you who is in a cult, china owns you and your feeble minded leader. Your deflection isn’t working anymore. 

 

omfg - you are pathetic and desperate af.

 

You think China provides me content and talking points that highlight the fact that you are a low iq Putin/Conald stooge?

 

No, that's all you.  Just look at your contributions here.

 

 

 

 

[sherpa]

1 hour ago, Niagara Bill said:

Will Russia ever be weaker than right now. Waiting never makes sense unless one of two positions are known. 

1. You are not prepared or capable today...

2. The conflict duration and goal is known and acceptable 

 

America will be affected, see 1939 to 1942.

 

 

 

Waiting, or at least not using the direct military option worked pretty well against this same adversary during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

omfg - you are pathetic and desperate af.

 

You think China provides me content and talking points that highlight the fact that you are a low iq Putin/Conald stooge?

 

No, that's all you.  Just look at your contributions here.

 

 

 

 

The fact that you post a Rodney Dangerfield meme suggests you’re much older than the junior high like responses you typically author on here…..which makes your every day juvenile name calling even more curious. Grow up! 

[BillStime]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

The fact that you post a Rodney Dangerfield meme suggests you’re much older than the junior high like responses you typically author on here…..which makes your every day juvenile name calling even more curious. Grow up! 

 

lmao - still can't wait to see you apply your advice to your fellow cult members.  Step up - you can do it, Karen!

 

[SoCal Deek]

7 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

lmao - still can't wait to see you apply your advice to your fellow cult members.  Step up - you can do it, Karen!

 

And….You respond with more name calling. Classic! 

[Warcodered]

It's always nice to see how on point this thread stays. 

[Niagara Bill]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So apply those lessons of the past to current scenarios you believe look similar and assume a similar outcome if you don't act?   Kind of hypothetical based on your assessment that you can accurately forecast the future.  What if you're wrong and acting now makes the future worse than if you did nothing?  What if acting now leads to nuclear war that destroys humanity 5 years from now.  What if not acting leads to world peace and prosperity for the foreseeable future?  You can't know the  answer.  So its an unknown risk either way.   

That is why professional soldiers, intelligence and elected officials get paid the big bucks. They need to make the best decision for all, Americans, Europe, Ukraine, the future. Too bad that politics at home influence too much. 

Local politics affected millions of deaths in 1939, 1940.

29 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Waiting, or at least not using the direct military option worked pretty well against this same adversary during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

True, but Russia never killed one person. What would Kennedy had done if Russia invaded Cuba, even with Cuba being an enemy. 

[Tiberius]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ll say it again…this is beyond ridiculous now! What our fearless and feeble leader forecasted as a small incursion has now gone on for two months with MILLIONS of innocent people fleeing their homes and HUNDREDS of buildings destroyed all over a large country. What the heck is going one here? Where are the adults? Where are the world’s diplomats? What are any of these people good for? Either get involved and stop this madness or get out and let it run it’s course. But to suggest you give a rats arse about the existential threat to ‘democracy’ while you dribble in the least amount of support as politically correctly possible while all the while buying gas from the aggressor is beyond pathetic. 

You want them to just let Putin enslave, murder and crush the country? No, what is going on now is not good, but it could be worse. Helping Ukraine fight--and win!!--is much better than just letting  Putin and his murderous thugs crush these people 

[Westside]

1 hour ago, BillStime said:

 

omfg - you are pathetic and desperate af.

 

You think China provides me content and talking points that highlight the fact that you are a low iq Putin/Conald stooge?

 

No, that's all you.  Just look at your contributions here.

 

 

 

 

You are the king of disinformation here. You lie as easily as you breath. Anyone who disagrees with you is a putin supporter or a cult member. You are truly pathetic. How does it feel to have everyone know you’re full of *****?

[BillStime]

12 minutes ago, Westside said:

You are the king of disinformation here. You lie as easily as you breath. Anyone who disagrees with you is a putin supporter or a cult member. You are truly pathetic. How does it feel to have everyone know you’re full of *****?