report- Empire State Development downtown stadium proposal

[SirAndrew]

Just now, boater said:

The team would gladly move downtown if NY contributed enough to make it cost neutral to staying in OP.

 

I'll eat my shorts if Albany contributed the billion+ needed to make a downtown stadium feasible. We aren't the Yankees or the Mets.

That’s fair, I just disagree the Bills WANT OP. They only want it because it’s cost effective. 

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

So the rich get richer? It should absolutely be about the small business owners which are getting devastated during covid 

 

Fat cats don't need their wallets lined any bigger

 

Also Buffalo's a savvy drinking town.. we tailgate hard so we don't have to pay $10 beer at the Ralph... They'll be a select crowd that will bar hop downtown 

 

But the vast majority will be buying 12 packs from Wegmans pounding them at home or in their cars, and going to the stadium ... Not spending $12 a drink at a Downtown bar

Yes, the rich do get richer. Especially if the state is contributing a large sum. Those are the people who have a say in political decisions. The guy who owns a private lot in OP doesn’t have much say. 

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

That’s fair, I just disagree the Bills WANT OP. They only want it because it’s cost effective. 

Yes, the rich do get richer. Especially if the state is contributing a large sum. Those are the people who have a say in political decisions. The guy who owns a private lot in OP doesn’t have much say. 

No but like I said it's not going to do much for the bar economy either because we're smart drinkers 

 

It's a select crowd in Buffalo that party downtown... Buffalonians will absolutely get drunk at home and go to the game rather than bar hop downtown before the game 

 

 

[PromoTheRobot]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

No but like I said it's not going to do much for the bar economy either because we're smart drinkers 

 

It's a select crowd in Buffalo that party downtown... Buffalonians will absolutely get drunk at home and go to the game rather than bar hop downtown before the game 

 

 

 

Just say "CHEAP."

7 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

That’s fair, I just disagree the Bills WANT OP. They only want it because it’s cost effective. 

Yes, the rich do get richer. Especially if the state is contributing a large sum. Those are the people who have a say in political decisions. The guy who owns a private lot in OP doesn’t have much say. 

 

Ever wonder why UB is in Amherst? One of Nelson Rockefeller's major donors owned that land. 

[SirAndrew]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

No but like I said it's not going to do much for the bar economy either because we're smart drinkers 

 

It's a select crowd in Buffalo that party downtown... Buffalonians will absolutely get drunk at home and go to the game rather than bar hop downtown before the game 

 

 

I agree with you, but any money spent on drinking downtown is more than they’re making with the stadium in OP. Business people care about that extra penny, and I believe some of them could be a factor in the state’s plans. 

[mjd1001]

10 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

No but like I said it's not going to do much for the bar economy either because we're smart drinkers 

 

It's a select crowd in Buffalo that party downtown... Buffalonians will absolutely get drunk at home and go to the game rather than bar hop downtown before the game 

 

 

The thing is I think you are looking at the CURRENT crowd that attends Bills games. You know what you get with a new stadium, no matter where it is built?  More expensive tickets, sometimes MUCH more expensive tickets that price out some people and those people are replaced in the stands with people with more money.  You also get the 'something new' thing to do that gives further incentive for the same thing.  Here's an example...

 

-I had season tickets in my 20's for about a decade. I gave them up a while ago and don't go to games anymore. A New stadium..especially one in Downtown? I'm likely...if not to get season tickets...to at least want to go to a few games and I'll pay top dollar for them.  I have a very close relative who makes well into the 6 figures who also gave up season tickets, but he said with a new stadium, PREFERABLY downtown, he's likely back in for the 'novelty' of it and he'll pay triple or more to do so compared to what he paid in the past. 

 

And its not just Buffalo, look at when new stadiums were opened in the past (I was living in Boston when the pats stadium opened about 20 years ago).  Not all of them, but a good number of the younger tailgate-and-drink crowd gets replaced. They get replaced with high income earners, mostly in their 40s and 50s and 60s....many that don't tailgate, and they want to go to that bar or restaurant to eat before or after the game.

 

I think if a stadium was built downown, and ticket prices go up considerably, you will see a full stadium at the games.  Just that a large number of the current 'tailgate' crowd will be replaced by older people with higher incomes that aren't tailgaters, but go to the game for more of an 'upscale' experience. Smart/cheap drinkers are replaced by ones that are willing to spend more money.

Edited October 8, 2021 by mjd1001

[Mat68]

3 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

I agree with you, but any money spent on drinking downtown is more than they’re making with the stadium in OP. Business people care about that extra penny, and I believe some of them could be a factor in the state’s plans. 

I agree.  Benefits the state to put the stadiun down town and possible dome.  It benefits the Bills to keep it in Orchard park. 

[SoCal Deek]

15 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

Yes, the rich do get richer. Especially if the state is contributing a large sum. Those are the people who have a say in political decisions. The guy who owns a private lot in OP doesn’t have much say. 

And in your version of the world you should be allowed to bring your own food to a restaurant? 

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

The thing is I think you are looking at the CURRENT crowd that attends Bills games. You know what you get with a new stadium, no matter where it is built?  More expensive tickets, sometimes MUCH more expensive tickets that price out some people and those people are replaced in the stands with people with more money.  You also get the 'something new' thing to do that gives further incentive for the same thing.  Here's an example...

 

-I had season tickets in my 20's for about a decade. I gave them up a while ago and don't go to games anymore. A New stadium..especially one in Downtown? I'm likely...if not to get season tickets...to at least want to go to a few games and I'll pay top dollar for them.  I have a very close relative who makes well into the 6 figures who also gave up season tickets, but he said with a new stadium, PREFERABLY downtown, he's likely back in for the 'novelty' of it and he'll pay triple or more to do so compared to what he paid in the past. 

 

And its not just Buffalo, look at when new stadiums were opened in the past (I was living in Boston when the pats stadium opened about 20 years ago).  Not all of them, but a good number of the younger tailgate-and-drink crowd gets replaced. They get replaced with high income earners, mostly in their 40s and 50s and 60s....many that don't tailgate, and they want to go to that bar or restaurant to eat before or after the game.

 

I think if a stadium was built downown, and ticket prices go up considerably, you will see a full stadium at the games.  Just that a large number of the current 'tailgate' crowd will be replaced by older people with higher incomes that aren't tailgaters, but go to the game for more of an 'upscale' experience. Smart/cheap drinkers are replaced by ones that are willing to spend more money.

It's still not going to price out that many people.. maybe the cheapest people who are in the nosebleeds

 

There's one thing people in Buffalo pay for.. to watch the Bills play especially when they're good

 

The majority of people in the city are still working class.. and they fill up the majority of the stadium and they're going to fill up the majority of the new one

 

It's not going to be 80% Canadians and buffalo millionaires 

 

I just want a new stadium.. go bills baby

Edited October 8, 2021 by Buffalo716

[Einstein]

20 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Yes the bridge has sidewalks, on both sides. And I can see them making the bridge pedestrian-only on game days if it helps move people. Don't forget there's a bridge at Ohio Street too. I could see Ganson Street becoming Tailgate Central downtown.

 

Look at this photo and tell me there's no place to tailgate.

 

You’re talking about maybe HALF the amount of tailgating space. And to get to half, you have to spread out. Close to a mile away.

 

Im assuming the city isn’t going to allow fans to tear up the park.

[PromoTheRobot]

4 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

I agree.  Benefits the state to put the stadiun down town and possible dome.  It benefits the Bills to keep it in Orchard park. 

 

How?

[SirAndrew]

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

And in your version of the world you should be allowed to bring your own food to a restaurant? 

What in the world does that have to do with my belief that the politically connected have input into where a stadium goes? 

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, Einstein said:

 

You’re talking about maybe HALF the amount of tailgating space. And to get to half, you have to spread out. Close to a mile away.

 

Im assuming the city isn’t going to allow fans to tear up the park.

 

Not everyone will choose to tailgate. Not everyone tailgates now.  When all there is is parking lots, you park. I stopped tailgating because it's b-o-r-i-n-g. I don't want to get drunk and overeat in the morning anymore.

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, SirAndrew said:

What in the world does that have to do with my belief that the politically connected have input into where a stadium goes? 

Who do you think has say? Neither the Bills nor the State owe you a parking lot where you can bring your own food and camp out for hours. The NFL is a business. It’s a balancing act relationship with the fan base for sure, but too many people on here think the Team owes them something. It doesn’t. 

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Not everyone will choose to tailgate. Not everyone tailgates now.  When all there is is parking lots, you park. I stopped tailgating because it's b-o-r-i-n-g. I don't want to get drunk and overeat in the morning anymore.

 

Ahh, so that’s why you like the downtown stadium. I suppose that’s fair. If I didn’t appreciate tailgating, I would be open to a downtown stadium too. I’m just on the opposite fence. I really appreciate the uniqueness of what we have.

 

A few years ago a Boston writer tweeted about how the drive to the Bills stadium is unlike any other in the NFL because the team has to go through thousands of Bills fans to get to the tunnel.

 

We would lose that downtown. Unless the team decided to take the bus a mile away through Ganison just for the heck of it lol.

[boater]

9 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Just say "CHEAP."

 

Ever wonder why UB is in Amherst? One of Nelson Rockefeller's major donors owned that land. 

Additionally, Rockefeller was a tremendous racist and wanted UB in the suburbs to isolate it.

 

He also oversaw a design of the Robert Moses Parkway that couldn't accommodate Greyhound buses, for the same reason.

[SirAndrew]

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Who do you think has say? Neither the Bills nor the State owe you a parking lot where you can bring your own food and camp out for hours. The NFL is a business. It’s a balancing act relationship with the fan base for sure, but too many people on here think the Team owes them something. It doesn’t. 

At what point did I say anyone owes me anything? I encourage you to re read my previous posts on this topic. I’m saying that a downtown location would make sense from the prospective of large business owners. I never said anything about what the team should do for the sake of the fans. I’m very confused by how you made that assumption. Did my statement “the rich get richer” upset you? Regardless of political affiliations, it’s simply a truth that decisions follow the money. That’s the world, it’s never a statement on the fan getting a raw deal. That’s a different discussion. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by SirAndrew

[boater]

16 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Just that a large number of the current 'tailgate' crowd will be replaced by older people with higher incomes that aren't tailgaters

Too bad Buffalo is an economic wasteland and there's about 4 of these people with higher incomes of which you speak.

 

My roofer can't afford downtown, but he can afford OP.

[SirAndrew]

7 minutes ago, boater said:

Too bad Buffalo is an economic wasteland and there's about 4 of these people with higher incomes of which you speak.

 

My roofer can't afford downtown, but he can afford OP.

You’re correct, Buffalo doesn’t have the wealth of many big cities, but I encourage anyone who’s curious to look at a list of the top employers in WNY. WNY isn’t just a city of blue collar workers anymore. Buffalo has one of the poorest inner cities in the country. Those stats drag down the rest of the area. People from the East Side already aren’t attending games for the most part, because they can’t afford it. There’s plenty of well paid folks in the suburbs. I’m not claiming Buffalo can support anything too high end, but the city of workers with ripped jeans and hard hats is a bit of a myth at this point. 

[Draconator]

1 minute ago, SirAndrew said:

You’re correct, Buffalo doesn’t have the wealth of many big cities, but I encourage anyone who’s curious to look at a list of the top employers in WNY. WNY isn’t just a city of blue collar workers anymore. Buffalo has one of the poorest inner cities in the country. Those stats drag down the rest of the area. People from the East Side already aren’t attending games for the most part, because they can’t afford it. There’s plenty of well paid folks in the suburbs. I’m not claiming Buffalo can support anything too high end, but the city of workers with ripped jeans and hard hats is a bit of a myth at this point. 

Isn't healthcare the largest employment base in Erie County now? 

[SirAndrew]

Just now, Draconator said:

Isn't healthcare the largest employment base in Erie County now? 

Yep, healthcare and education employ substantially more people than anything else in WNY. I’m not claiming that WNY is rich. I’m just saying the blue collar thing is almost folklore at this point. I know some people who live in working class Buffalo city neighborhoods, but most people live in the burbs. Many of those areas would be considered quite fancy by rural and city folk.