The Big Gamble: Hydroxychloroquine

[Doc Brown]

 

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

 

Wouldn't expect you to agree with that, as I don't either for the VAST majority of people that consider themselves to be to the left.  (See paragraph below it for my version of the less cynical, and likely more correct, answer for why the vast majority of those reflexively countering the suggestion do so.

 

That's why I said "healthy skepticism" of science (not denial) as my views on climate change are more alligned with the right.  These dire predictions by climate change scientests often turn out to be wrong or overstated and we need to keep that in mind when implementing policies.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Doc Brown said:

 

That's why I said "healthy skepticism" of science (not denial) as my views on climate change are more alligned with the right.  These dire predictions by climate change scientests often turn out to be wrong or overstated and we need to keep that in mind when implementing policies.

 

Fair enough.  Got hung up on the phrase about the left being "overly reliant on science" and read it differently than you'd intended it to be read. 

 

[Nanker]

2 hours ago, Scraps said:

 

 

Those were interesting links.  Thank you.  I didn't read them as "it's worse than dying" though and I don't think meaningful trials would take 3-4 years.  This is a distortion in my opinion.

You’re welcome. As a point of fact, a very close family relative ran clinical Phase 2, 3, and 4 trials.

My relative ran dozens of these global studies. They are non trivial exercises and that time and tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to run. 

 

If you’re following morbidity/mortality, it could take more than 5 years - until the event rate of efficacy for the morbidity event, e.g., stroke, heart attack, seizures, or death is documented. The resulting data has to be reviewed by an independent committee to determine if the event met the criteria established by the trial. 
 

It’s only following that process that the data has to be cleaned and normalized and a clinical study report gets written and an application can be filed with the FDA. This has to be done for each indication. That’s the process in the US.
 

In Europe the governing body is the EMEA. Japan has their own regulatory agency. They both have their own processes and requirements. 

 

Oh, and Cancer trials can go on indefinitely. 
 

But doing Clinical Trials to get drug approvals is a snap. Got it. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...why should ANY governor have the power to block a medical treatment OR force their State Health Director to follow their lead?.......governors are now well trained medical experts?......should Big Fredo block my daily dose of BP Meds?........um....er....well...uh...oh......okay.................

[3rdnlng]

34 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...why should ANY governor have the power to block a medical treatment OR force their State Health Director to follow their lead?.......governors are now well trained medical experts?......should Big Fredo block my daily dose of BP Meds?........um....er....well...uh...oh......okay.................

All of this depends on whether you live in Virginia or not. 

[KD in CA]

5 hours ago, Taro T said:

 

The cynical answer is because the left would rather see people die than see 45 get "a win."

 

Really believe it is less sinister than that.  The left reflexively believes that anything 45 supports is necessarily wrong or nefarious, sometimes both.  And it takes a bit of doing to get over that reflexive 'this has to be fake or bad' reaction.  That the national level media almost entirely in unison can't stand him being president and most all the people they interact with daily think like mindedly, and it isn't too hard to see why they still can't open up to the possibility that this might work.  And except in very rare cases, at a minimum it won't hurt.

 

I don't see how anyone can look at how the left has acted over the last 3 1/2 years and conclude anything but.

 

Sure, at the individual level you see people rising above politics, but do people actually believe that power brokers like Nancy P wouldn't trade the lives of 20,000 nobodys for a guaranteed Biden win in November?

[LSHMEAB]

17 hours ago, Hedge said:

 

 

And there are 1 or 2 others listed here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Republicans_who_opposed_the_2016_Donald_Trump_presidential_campaign

These are politicians, not voters. They've all been flogged to get in line by the rank and file.

 

Trump's approval rating among Republicans is HISTORIC while Dems are calling their candidate a rapist and the entire Sanders wing is threatening to sit out the election.

 

Orange Man Bad. Orange Man Good. No matter what. If you don't think there's a HUGE swatch of people that fall under BOTH of these categories, I don't think your being honest with yourself.

 

Maybe orange man is ALWAYS good. I suppose that's a valid take. But to pretend both sides haven't twisted themselves in knots to defend a narrative since he came on the scene seems disingenuous.  

[Cinga]

6 hours ago, Scraps said:

 

Can you show me anyone who has been against this?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=democrats+against+hydroxychloroquine&atb=v168-1&ia=news

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, Cinga said:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=democrats+against+hydroxychloroquine&atb=v168-1&ia=news

 

Besides them...

[Gene Frenkle]

13 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

So you have problems with all the players?  Trump, his rivals/media that have miscast it as a political issue?  
 

I can see that, but with the world in free fall, I feel like people are able to navigate what the President said.  It wasn’t particularly complicated, it provided some level of reassurance that options were potentially available.  
 

As for a “plain and simple” political gain, that’s in the eye of the beholder. 

So you think it's ok that he was duping America by giving false hope about a drug he certainly had no way of knowing either works or doesn't? I'll stand by it being inappropriate at best. It's almost like he cares more about himself than he does about the rest of us. A gamble so he can maybe say he was right.

[Gene Frenkle]

12 hours ago, Magox said:

 

I'd like to address a few points here:

 

A) I don't believe he began the Hydroxycholoroquine promotion as a political matter.  The positive anecdotal accounts, non randomized small tests out of China and France were being reported by some of conservative outlets.  He piggybacked off of those reports. He is an optimist by nature but he does also like to massage and downplay things that may make him look bad.  Which I think works against him.  Personally, I'd rather have someone who levels with me, ie. the whole downplaying of the Virus and comparing it with the Flu.    If we are going to attempt to get into his motives which you did as well, then my guess is that he was trying to basically say "Hey, there may be a cure".  Trying to communicate some hope.

 

B) I think what probably caught everyone by surprise is the depth of the media's desire to attack Trump on a drug that has shown some signs of hope.   At that point, I do think Trump did make a political calculation.  Referencing my original post, he thinks he has the winning hand.  He could be wrong, but he's not politically stupid.  So logically, that has to be his thinking on it.  He does give himself some wiggle room with the "What the hell do you have to lose?".....If he's right, he's going to use it in a BIGLY fashion on how he has "saved thousands and thousands of lives".  Whether that is the case or not.

 

C) You say just let the "docs do their thing".   Well, I think this is a large reason why he was elected and why he is so controversial.  He's a disruptor (disrupter).  He's unconventional, which makes him a highly polarizing figure.  If he left it up to his health officials, they would have never made any recommendation for it.  Let me tell you why his endorsement of it matters.  There was a limited supply for hydroxycholoroquine and the fear and part of the criticism against Trump promoting it is that it would take up the supplies of those that use it where it is proven to be successful such as Malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.  What Trump did was secure and purchase more supply.  Without there being a push for it, this very likely would not have happened.  Now as a result of it, you are seeing the state of New York, Michigan, LA. and other states requesting for the federal government to supply them with more of it.   Which means, that if he hadn't had made the promotion of hydroxycholoroquine and it turns out that it does help those afflicted with the Virus, his unconventional style very likely would have ended up helping people out.     

So push for it and stockpile behind the scenes.  That's clearly the thing to do if your scenario is accurate. Saying it publicly, even if he had an informed gut feel, does nothing but give false hope and spike demand. Seems kind of counterproductive.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Gene Frenkle

[GG]

8 hours ago, Scraps said:

 

Can you show me anyone who has been against this?

 

Does this suffice?

[Deranged Rhino]

18 minutes ago, Gene Frenkle said:

So you think it's ok that he was duping America by giving false hope about a drug he certainly had no way of knowing either works or doesn't? I'll stand by it being inappropriate at best. It's almost like he cares more about himself than he does about the rest of us. A gamble so he can maybe say he was right.

 

Are you under the impression he was just making up stuff about the drug from out of the blue rather than repeating what he'd been briefed on by the doctors and experts? Trump, being Trump, lacks the precision of a doctor when he speaks -- but it's becoming more and more apparent that he wasn't giving false hope in the slightest as many doctors are now using the meds to save lives. 

[Magox]

1 minute ago, Gene Frenkle said:

So push for it and stockpile behind the scenes.  That's clearly the thing to do if your scenario is accurate. Saying it publicly, even if he had an informed gut feel, does nothing but give false hope and spike demand? Seems kind of counterproductive.

 

I didn’t say that he was nearly a perfect man.

 

He’s extremely political and the media and him are a perfect match for each other.  
 

The real question Gene is why did the media make such a big deal out of it?  A simple google search shows that it’s a relatively safe and established drug.   Just doesn’t make sense that they potentially committed this huge unforced error.   If Trump ends up being right about this they will have egg in their face and give him a huge victory and talking point going into the elections.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

Are you under the impression he was just making up stuff about the drug from out of the blue rather than repeating what he'd been briefed on by the doctors and experts? Trump, being Trump, lacks the precision of a doctor when he speaks -- but it's becoming more and more apparent that he wasn't giving false hope in the slightest as many doctors are now using the meds to save lives. 

 

Agree DR

[Magox]

10 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Does this suffice?

 

I have been thinking about this today.  Again, this could end up being another terrible unforced error. If Trump ends up being right she’s going to look terrible.   I don’t get who is advising these people.   I would be very interested to hear someone ask Biden what he thinks of Trump promoting HCQ

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 4/9/2020 at 9:58 AM, Gary Busey said:

 

Agreed - I haven't seen anyone disagree with this. 

 

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/03/29/more-on-cloroquine-azithromycin-and-on-dr-raoult

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/04/06/hydroxychloroquine-update-for-april-6#comment-315877

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.31.20048777v1

 

Laters

[Cinga]

More to back up the red blood cell issue posted earlier in this thread

 

https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/must-read-research-reveals-that-covid-19-attacks-hemoglobin-in-red-blood-cells,-rendering-it-incapable-of-transporting-oxygen--current-medical-protoco?fbclid=IwAR1UvgfLkxzvDcgoEJXw07F9cUZt6Ce1zHy5wTTkUtQNUwr04SX1qYwX6UM

 

Quote

Though the virus is able to attack the ACE2 receptors in the lung tissues and cause damage and also while cytokine storms are creating more damage, it is most probability of the body’s inability get enough oxygen along with carbon dioxide build up that is creating the so called ARDS symptoms and stress and current protocols could be all wrong including the usage of ventilators in a non-proper manner way that could actually aggravate  already ‘injured’ and inflamed lungs.

 

this one is the study cited in the above article

 

https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173

 

 

 

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, Gene Frenkle said:

So you think it's ok that he was duping America by giving false hope about a drug he certainly had no way of knowing either works or doesn't? I'll stand by it being inappropriate at best. It's almost like he cares more about himself than he does about the rest of us. A gamble so he can maybe say he was right.

No, I don’t think that at all.  I think President Trump wants to save as many people as possible, as most presidents would, and he’s pragmatic.  I think his desire, or impulse, to speak what’s on his mind allowed him to cut through the bull#### and tell the American people what he heard, what was being reported, and what the medical professionals at his level shared.  I can see a medical professional suggesting “well, some of what we’re hearing is promising, so, let’s move forward cautiously with trials and....”, I can see him recognizing that people were going to die, and he shared what he had heard.  I’d bet his advisers were telling him to stay quiet, to remain guarded and he thought “F&$# that.”.  In that regard, he’s pretty amazing, assuming of course success follows. 

 

i think you’re 100% flat out wrong, I think he care as much about the people of this country as any President ever has, and more than most in recent memory, but even if you’re right, he wins by American lives being saved.  What’s better for a narcissist (as some see him) than saving lives?   

Edited April 11, 2020 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[3rdnlng]

The MSM is the one constantly bringing up HCQ and making fools of themselves. All Trump is doing is responding. 

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Gene Frenkle said:

So you think it's ok that he was duping America by giving false hope about a drug he certainly had no way of knowing either works or doesn't? I'll stand by it being inappropriate at best. It's almost like he cares more about himself than he does about the rest of us. A gamble so he can maybe say he was right.

 

"False hope" was the narrative pushed by the MSM.  You really need to do more than listen to them and take what they say as gospel. 

 

2 hours ago, GG said:

Does this suffice?

 

I really hope Senile Joe picks her.  Then when the drug is shown to be effective, this can be played around the clock.

 

Oh and that Rosenberg guy has no idea what he's talking about.  We know the mechanism of action.

[Rob's House]

6 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

These are politicians, not voters. They've all been flogged to get in line by the rank and file.

 

Trump's approval rating among Republicans is HISTORIC while Dems are calling their candidate a rapist and the entire Sanders wing is threatening to sit out the election.

 

Orange Man Bad. Orange Man Good. No matter what. If you don't think there's a HUGE swatch of people that fall under BOTH of these categories, I don't think your being honest with yourself.

 

Maybe orange man is ALWAYS good. I suppose that's a valid take. But to pretend both sides haven't twisted themselves in knots to defend a narrative since he came on the scene seems disingenuous.  

 

The fatal flaw in the "both sides" argument is that it draws a false equivalence that can always be supported regardless of the actual imbalance.

 

When comparing one side's fringe to the other's base, either side can make the argument regardless of how absurd it's own position has become.  

 

You can have a thousand people claiming Trump is Hitler and counterbalance it with one guy calling Obama Stalin, and you've got support for a "both sides" argument.

 

Both parties will always be comprised of politicians, and both sides will always have die hard supporters, some of whom are zealots and/or lunatics. Neither side will ever be perfect. This is true of every political faction in the history of the civilized world. The fact that both sides are flawed does not mean they are equally flawed.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Rob's House

[LSHMEAB]

2 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

 

The fatal flaw in the "both sides" argument is that it draws a false equivalence that can always be supported regardless of the actual imbalance.

 

When comparing one side's fringe to the other's base, either side can make the argument regardless of how absurd it's own position has become.  

 

You can have a thousand people claiming Trump is Hitler and counterbalance it with one guy calling Obama Stalin, and you've got support for a "both sides" argument.

 

Both parties will always be comprised of politicians, and both sides will always have die hard supporters, some of whom are zealots and/or lunatics. Neither side will ever be perfect. This is true of every political faction in the history of the civilized world. The fact that both sides are flawed does not mean they are equally flawed.

Here's the deal Rob. Imagine if an NFL wide receiver conducted himself the way Donald Trump conducts himself. He'd be EVISCERATED as a diva, malcontent, punk, thug etc. by THE VERY SAME PEOPLE who love him.

 

You know it, I know it, OJ know it. 

 

Outside of the Fox News bubble, this is apparent; it's obvious; it's flagrant.

 

Now I don't care if people are flamboyant, etc. I don't care if WR's have a me first attitude. I don't care about any of that. I care about RESULTS. I'm not really an emotional being per se.  I'm gonna continue to live my life. I'm gonna chase money; I'm gonna chase women. I'm gonna drink. I'm gonna smoke. I'm gonna believe exactly what I believe whether it fits a liberal narrative or not.

 

But the right has been POUNDING THE TABLE about character, ethics, and morality for as long as I can remember. Now, not so much.

 

On the flip side; prior to Trump, the left HATED the FBI. All of a sudden, they're the most important, ethical agency ever bestowed upon man. By the by, I keep hearing Trump is draining the swamp at the FBI. What exactly has he done WRT to the FBI that involves someone other than Trump, his orbit, or his political enemies? I guess that's another story.

 

I can recognize this shape shifting for what it is regardless of who's doing the shape shifting. I don't believe Trump supporters recognize the hypocrisy THEY exhibit. So your final statement insinuating that the left is so much worse than the right just doesn't ring true.

 

This is bigger than Trump; he's just the current President. I think we've reached a point as a society in which people cannot think for themselves. They live vicariously through Presidents, Athletes, Celebrities, etc. They join a herd and follow that herd even if it deviates from their true self, which has actually been lost somewhere along the way.

 

[Rob's House]

1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said:

Here's the deal Rob. Imagine if an NFL wide receiver conducted himself the way Donald Trump conducts himself. He'd be EVISCERATED as a diva, malcontent, punk, thug etc. by THE VERY SAME PEOPLE who love him.

 

You know it, I know it, OJ know it. 

 

I liked TO.

 

Quote

Outside of the Fox News bubble, this is apparent; it's obvious; it's flagrant.

 

I don't even get Fox News and I have no idea what you're saying is obvious and flagrant. I'm still not sure what he's done that's so objectionable.

 

Quote

Now I don't care if people are flamboyant, etc. I don't care if WR's have a me first attitude. I don't care about any of that. I care about RESULTS. I'm not really an emotional being per se.  I'm gonna continue to live my life. I'm gonna chase money; I'm gonna chase women. I'm gonna drink. I'm gonna smoke. I'm gonna believe exactly what I believe whether it fits a liberal narrative or not.

 

Amen

 

Quote

But the right has been POUNDING THE TABLE about character, ethics, and morality for as long as I can remember. Now, not so much.

 

There is some hypocrisy there, but that's not what I was referring to, and it's not as bad as you think. Most of the hyper-moralistic types were Never Trumpers, and some still are (RIP the Jonah Goldberg I once enjoyed).

 

Some of them have come around for various reasons, many because despite not liking the guy personally they're pretty happy with what he's done and b/c of the obscenely unfair attacks from the left. 

 

Most of the people who were pro Trump before it was cool never gave a ***** if the President got some side action. Plus, I don't know what he's done since being in office that demonstrates a lack of character, morals, or ethics.

 

Quote

On the flip side; prior to Trump, the left HATED the FBI. All of a sudden, they're the most important, ethical agency ever bestowed upon man. By the by, I keep hearing Trump is draining the swamp at the FBI. What exactly has he done WRT to the FBI that involves someone other than Trump, his orbit, or his political enemies? I guess that's another story.

 

I can recognize this shape shifting for what it is regardless of who's doing the shape shifting. I don't believe Trump supporters recognize the hypocrisy THEY exhibit. So your final statement insinuating that the left is so much worse than the right just doesn't ring true.

 

See above on hypocrisy. 

 

Idon't think there's even an argument to be made for the "both sides" position here. The behavior of the left over the last 4 years is more extreme, ruthless, divisive, and corrupt than anything I've ever seen from either side, and it's not even close. I challenge anyone to cite an example of anything approaching it in recent decades.

 

EVERYTHING the man does is wrong. It's not only wrong, it's evil, corrupt, and incompetent. Saying anything mildly positive about him is met with utter condemnation.

 

He's a bigoted, racist, sexist, Nazi who eats two scoops of ice cream and wants to ***** his own daughter. And he's a Russian spy to boot. He represents an existential threat to "our democracy" who wants to be a dictator. That's until the opportunity to take dictatorial power falls in his lap, then he's a POS for not acting like a dictator.

 

A Chinese virus threatens to kill millions and the biggest concern is that he's racist for identifying its country of origin. It's racist to shut down travel from China and then he's a POS for not doing it sooner. He announces that doctors may have an available treatment for the Chinese Kung Flu and pushes to get it mass produced and the story is it's his fault that some mentally unstable left-wing activist poisoned her husband with fish tank cleaner because the active ingredient sounded similar.

 

They even impeached the ***** for looking into the corruption of the guy they now want to make President. They conducted a 2 year investigation into the Russian collusion bull ***** after they knew it was bogus, and lied with impunity throughout. Now they want another investigation into his handling of the Kung Flu. It never ends. No matter what he does they call it a scandal.

 

And don't even get me started on the Kavanaugh bull *****.

 

And it doesn't stop with President Trump. His supporters are Nazis too, and it's okay to punch them. In fact, you should punch them. They're all racists, or at the very least, looked the other way on racism. And homophobes too. We can't cite any examples of anything remotely homophobic, but just go with it because Orange Man Bad. 

 

And that's just the highlight reel.

 

I haven't even gotten into the AOC/Ilhan Omar/Rashid Talib insanity, and all the anti white male propaganda. Not have I addressed the censorship of right-wing views and the near universal support for that censorship by leftists.

 

And this isn't reserved the fringe leftist websites or a few opportunistic politicians. It's mainstream news outlets, the entire Democrat establishment, and a very sizeable portion of the Democrat base.

 

Most of this garbage is utterly baseless, and they know it, except for the sad souls that are too weak minded to see that they're being manipulated and follow the narrative like a cult (then refer to those of us who don't subscribe to the cult's tenets as cultists).

 

But some people on the right said Obama was a Muslim from Kenya so it's the same? I'm not buying it.

 

I would like for anyone to try to explain how the right, for all its flaws, (or even the left prior to 2016) has demonstrated anywhere near the same level of divisiveness, corruption, and dishonesty as what we've seen from the left over the last four years.

 

Quote

This is bigger than Trump; he's just the current President. I think we've reached a point as a society in which people cannot think for themselves. They live vicariously through Presidents, Athletes, Celebrities, etc. They join a herd and follow that herd even if it deviates from their true self, which has actually been lost somewhere along the way.

 

 

On this I agree completely.

 

I will say that although we are all subject to the same cognitive functions that cause this phenomenon, and which are being actively manipulated at all times by people who understand the psychology of influence, I still believe most of us have a halfway rational perspective. It's just that those who are most susceptible often become the most passionate and vocal. Even if that's only 20% of the population, that's still over 60 million people.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Rob's House

[Nanker]

6 hours ago, Magox said:

 

I have been thinking about this today.  Again, this could end up being another terrible unforced error. If Trump ends up being right she’s going to look terrible.   I don’t get who is advising these people. [b ] I would be very interested to hear someone ask Biden what he thinks of Trump promoting HCQ[/b]

Sure..

 

Let  me saaayah, the onliest thing about the thing that... it isn’t just wrong, it’s because the other things that were instead of, of, of, of... Let me say it another way, more simply. I’m a simple man. Who pinned this note on my sweater? You. You! You dog faced pony soldier _ what does it say? WHAT DOES IT SAY??? Oh yeah?  I’m not doing push-ups with you. I’m not that dumb. I went to Senator school, on a scholarship for eight years. 

[Teddy KGB]

23 hours ago, Foxx said:

you're an idiot.

you’re an idiot if you don’t have q baby and Tibs blocked 

[SoCal Deek]

After eight years of Obama and nearly four of Trump it should be obvious by now. The sides have been clearly drawn. The Left is rooting for the American people, business, and common traditions/culture to falter big time! The ‘hope’ is that that breakdown will force the ‘change’  they seek which is an ever accelerating amassing of centralized  control. Those on the Right are doing everything they can to hold onto independence and freedom of self determination. The distinction is so clear it’s stunning!
 

The debate over Hydroxy is just the latest example. Trump says here’s something promising to get you out of your houses and back to your normal lives, so please consult your doctor.....and the Left sponsored Media pounces to say ‘wait a minute.....we don’t want anyone to get the slightest glimmer of hope of getting back to normal....we NEED those people cowering in their homes, so we can complete the Hope and Change that comes from centralized mandates and willfully surrendering of freedoms ...and we’re so close to that goal now we can taste it! Just a few more weeks of this government mandated shut down and the people will give up EVERYTHING just to be allowed a ration of toilet paper and a crust of bread’.

[Big Gun]

7 hours ago, Rob's House said:

 

I liked TO.

 

 

I don't even get Fox News and I have no idea what you're saying is obvious and flagrant. I'm still not sure what he's done that's so objectionable.

 

 

Amen

 

 

There is some hypocrisy there, but that's not what I was referring to, and it's not as bad as you think. Most of the hyper-moralistic types were Never Trumpers, and some still are (RIP the Jonah Goldberg I once enjoyed).

 

Some of them have come around for various reasons, many because despite not liking the guy personally they're pretty happy with what he's done and b/c of the obscenely unfair attacks from the left. 

 

Most of the people who were pro Trump before it was cool never gave a ***** if the President got some side action. Plus, I don't know what he's done since being in office that demonstrates a lack of character, morals, or ethics.

 

 

See above on hypocrisy. 

 

Idon't think there's even an argument to be made for the "both sides" position here. The behavior of the left over the last 4 years is more extreme, ruthless, divisive, and corrupt than anything I've ever seen from either side, and it's not even close. I challenge anyone to cite an example of anything approaching it in recent decades.

 

EVERYTHING the man does is wrong. It's not only wrong, it's evil, corrupt, and incompetent. Saying anything mildly positive about him is met with utter condemnation.

 

He's a bigoted, racist, sexist, Nazi who eats two scoops of ice cream and wants to ***** his own daughter. And he's a Russian spy to boot. He represents an existential threat to "our democracy" who wants to be a dictator. That's until the opportunity to take dictatorial power falls in his lap, then he's a POS for not acting like a dictator.

 

A Chinese virus threatens to kill millions and the biggest concern is that he's racist for identifying its country of origin. It's racist to shut down travel from China and then he's a POS for not doing it sooner. He announces that doctors may have an available treatment for the Chinese Kung Flu and pushes to get it mass produced and the story is it's his fault that some mentally unstable left-wing activist poisoned her husband with fish tank cleaner because the active ingredient sounded similar.

 

They even impeached the ***** for looking into the corruption of the guy they now want to make President. They conducted a 2 year investigation into the Russian collusion bull ***** after they knew it was bogus, and lied with impunity throughout. Now they want another investigation into his handling of the Kung Flu. It never ends. No matter what he does they call it a scandal.

 

And don't even get me started on the Kavanaugh bull *****.

 

And it doesn't stop with President Trump. His supporters are Nazis too, and it's okay to punch them. In fact, you should punch them. They're all racists, or at the very least, looked the other way on racism. And homophobes too. We can't cite any examples of anything remotely homophobic, but just go with it because Orange Man Bad. 

 

And that's just the highlight reel.

 

I haven't even gotten into the AOC/Ilhan Omar/Rashid Talib insanity, and all the anti white male propaganda. Not have I addressed the censorship of right-wing views and the near universal support for that censorship by leftists.

 

And this isn't reserved the fringe leftist websites or a few opportunistic politicians. It's mainstream news outlets, the entire Democrat establishment, and a very sizeable portion of the Democrat base.

 

Most of this garbage is utterly baseless, and they know it, except for the sad souls that are too weak minded to see that they're being manipulated and follow the narrative like a cult (then refer to those of us who don't subscribe to the cult's tenets as cultists).

 

But some people on the right said Obama was a Muslim from Kenya so it's the same? I'm not buying it.

 

I would like for anyone to try to explain how the right, for all its flaws, (or even the left prior to 2016) has demonstrated anywhere near the same level of divisiveness, corruption, and dishonesty as what we've seen from the left over the last four years.

 

 

On this I agree completely.

 

I will say that although we are all subject to the same cognitive functions that cause this phenomenon, and which are being actively manipulated at all times by people who understand the psychology of influence, I still believe most of us have a halfway rational perspective. It's just that those who are most susceptible often become the most passionate and vocal. Even if that's only 20% of the population, that's still over 60 million people.

This^^^^^ 1000%

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 hours ago, Cinga said:

More to back up the red blood cell issue posted earlier in this thread

 

https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/must-read-research-reveals-that-covid-19-attacks-hemoglobin-in-red-blood-cells,-rendering-it-incapable-of-transporting-oxygen--current-medical-protoco?fbclid=IwAR1UvgfLkxzvDcgoEJXw07F9cUZt6Ce1zHy5wTTkUtQNUwr04SX1qYwX6UM

 

 

this one is the study cited in the above article

 

https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please note that the study you cite is a MOLECULAR MODELING study which uses the structure of the proteins to predict that something might happen.

Molecular modeling studies have a very mixed track record of predicting what actually occurs in vivo (that's putting it nicely)

 

That's why you're seeing nothing about this (yet) in the covid facts only OTW thread - I have not yet turned up any information on clinical evidence this is happening.  There are a couple of retrospective studies on lab results in ICU patients, and their hemoglobin values do drop - but not very low, 11 - to give context, when my mom suffered severe hemorrhage and required immediate surgery, she still had a fine O2 sat with a value of 7 or 8.

 

Thanks, Laters.

[Scraps]

15 hours ago, GG said:

 

Does this suffice?

No.

[Deranged Rhino]

4 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

In the days/months immediately after the election, when the entire Bush/Neocon machine was racing to join the Clinton/Obama/Neoliberal machine to "get" Trump, I thought that it wouldn't be long until those progressives/centrists/liberals who spent 8 years gnashing their teeth (rightly so to some extent) about W/Cheney/the oil cartels and endless war would wake up. After all, how could they take seriously the caterwauling of the Frums, Krystols, and Boots of the world after spending 8 years calling them fascists, Nazis, and war criminals?

 

Surely they would see, quickly, that if your enemies for the past 8 years suddenly teamed up with your "allies" (whom, upon reflection, pushed the same agenda as your "enemies" when they had 8 years in office), then maybe you should re-think your position. But nope. There was never a moment of reflection with this group. They went full bore into "RUSSIA!" and never looked back.  

 

It took about two months for me to realize the principles these folks spent 8 years arguing for weren't really principles at all. Because when you're an NPC who floats from talking point to talking point when pushed by the "consensus of MSM opinion", you don't have the luxury of principles.

 

They get in the way of your FEELZ. 

[LSHMEAB]

9 hours ago, Rob's House said:

 

 

 

He's a bigoted, racist, sexist, Nazi who eats two scoops of ice cream and wants to ***** his own daughter.

 

 

Well, she is pretty hot. 

 

At any rate, don't fully agree on the proportionately issue, but STRONG take.

[Scraps]

19 hours ago, Cinga said:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=democrats+against+hydroxychloroquine&atb=v168-1&ia=news

 

That is nothing more than a search for sensational opinion pieces.  I read one that had some underlying documentation but that documentation did no support the conclusion of the opinion piece.  Not particularly surprising.  Trumpsters have been to cowed to investigate and draw their own conclusions.

[Doc]

15 minutes ago, Scraps said:

That is nothing more than a search for sensational opinion pieces.  I read one that had some underlying documentation but that documentation did no support the conclusion of the opinion piece.  Not particularly surprising.  Trumpsters have been to cowed to investigate and draw their own conclusions.

 

To deny that many of the left have been pooh-poohing HCQ is either ignorance or bald-faced lying and nothing will convince you.  Doesn't make a difference since it is what it is.

 

And again, despite your denials, if you got the Wuhan virus and were worsening, you'd be begging for HCQ.  You wouldn't be worrying about a RA, SLE or malaria patient's suffering when there was a chance you would die.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Doc

[B-Man]

65 Percent of Physicians in New Survey Would Give Anti-Malaria Drugs to Their Own Family to Treat COVID-19

 

ATLANTA, April 8, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- Sixty-five percent physicians across the United States said they would prescribe the anti-malaria drugs chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine to treat or prevent COVID-19 in a family member, according to a new survey released today by Jackson & Coker, one of the country's largest physician staffing firms.

 

Only 11 percent said they would not use the drug at all.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/65-percent-physicians-survey-anti-142800139.html

[Scraps]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

To deny that many of the left have been pooh-poohing HCQ is either ignorance or bald-faced lying and nothing will convince you.  Doesn't make a difference since it is what it is.

 

I have yet to see anyone do anything more that criticize the Trump and right wing echo chamber for touting an unproven drug and downplaying its side effects.  This has led to over doses, deaths, hoarding and a scarcity for people who need the drug for other conditions.  I haven't seen anyone say that clinical trials should not be conducted.  Well that's not entirely true, many on the right want to jump right past that.  I haven't seen anyone say it shouldn't be used on a compassionate basis.

[Deranged Rhino]

28 minutes ago, Scraps said:

 

That is nothing more than a search for sensational opinion pieces.  I read one that had some underlying documentation but that documentation did no support the conclusion of the opinion piece.  Not particularly surprising.  Trumpsters have been to cowed to investigate and draw their own conclusions.

 

... You mean like "BUT RUSSIA!" ? 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Scraps said:

 

I have yet to see anyone do anything more that criticize the Trump and right wing echo chamber for touting an unproven drug and downplaying its side effects.  

 

Except for the governors who banned its use -- only to reverse course when the winds changed you mean... right?

[Scraps]

1 minute ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

... You mean like "BUT RUSSIA!" ? 

 

 

 

Except for the governors who banned its use -- only to reverse course when the winds changed you mean... right?

 

Which governors?  What exactly did they say about HCQ not worth investigating?  Please no distorted opinion pieces.  

[Doc]

10 minutes ago, Scraps said:

I have yet to see anyone do anything more that criticize the Trump and right wing echo chamber for touting an unproven drug and downplaying its side effects.  This has led to over doses, deaths, hoarding and a scarcity for people who need the drug for other conditions.  I haven't seen anyone say that clinical trials should not be conducted.  Well that's not entirely true, many on the right want to jump right past that.  I haven't seen anyone say it shouldn't be used on a compassionate basis.

 

Oh, my bad.  I didn't realize you were (still) one of them.  No wonder you haven't seen it.

 

Again, it's not unproven and there is no other treatment.  And if the side effects are so bad, let's pull it off the shelves right now.  Sound good?

[Deranged Rhino]

Just now, Scraps said:

 

Which governors?  What exactly did they say about HCQ not worth investigating?  Please no distorted opinion pieces.  

 

See: Nevada and Michigan to start. 

 

They BANNED its use for a short time -- to "get Trump", then realized, "oops, it's working for a lot of people" and changed course.