The Big Gamble: Hydroxychloroquine

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, Scraps said:

No, its just a stupid question because the average person has no idea how many people have died from Hydroxychloroquine. You want to prove yourself?  Answer your own question. You tell me how many people have die of hydroxychloroquine.  You tell me how many people suffering from Covid-19 have been pulled of of hydroxychloroquine because they could not tolerate the drug?  You tell me how many people who died with Covid-19 could have been saved if only they were given hydroxychloroquine?

 

If you can't answer all of those questions, then it is unfair to expect me to do so.

 

You're the one claiming it's dangerous to use.  Therefore you have the burden of proof.  Saying "come on, don't you think..." isn't a answer.

[Magox]

It’s not a dangerous drug unless you take too much of it or if you have certain other medical conditions .

 

Just like every other Freaking drug.

[Scraps]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

You're the one claiming it's dangerous to use.  Therefore you have the burden of proof.  Saying "come on, don't you think..." isn't a answer.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/mayo-clinic-cardiologist-inexcusable-ignore-hydroxychloroquine-side-effects-n1178776

 

I posted that earlier today.  Again, you can't read,

Edited April 11, 2020 by Scraps

[Chef Jim]

5 minutes ago, Scraps said:

 

No, its just a stupid question because the average person has no idea how many people have died from Hydroxychloroquine. You want to prove yourself?  Answer your own question. You tell me how many people have die of hydroxychloroquine.  You tell me how many people suffering from Covid-19 have been pulled of of hydroxychloroquine because they could not tolerate the drug?  You tell me how many people who died with Covid-19 could have been saved if only they were given hydroxychloroquine?

 

If you can't answer all of those questions, then it is unfair to expect me to do so.

 

 

So you're crying and pissing and moaning about these LETHAL side effects when in reality you have no ***** idea how LETHAL these side effects are.  You're crying, pissing and moaning about all these people being PULLED of the drug because they couldn't tolerate it when in reality you have no ***** idea how commonplace this is.  It's not for us to prove these things.  It's up to you to prove them because YOU'RE the one that brought it up. This has been my whole point.  You're playing chicken little when you have no idea how may acorns have actually fallen from the sky. 

[Scraps]

19 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

So you're crying and pissing and moaning about these LETHAL side effects when in reality you have no ***** idea how LETHAL these side effects are.  You're crying, pissing and moaning about all these people being PULLED of the drug because they couldn't tolerate it when in reality you have no ***** idea how commonplace this is.  It's not for us to prove these things.  It's up to you to prove them because YOU'RE the one that brought it up. This has been my whole point.  You're playing chicken little when you have no idea how may acorns have actually fallen from the sky. 

 

Conversely, you have no idea how safe it is nor the efficacy, particularly for someone on a ventilator.  Hence the reason why I have said repeatedly that it should be subjected to clinical studies and given for compassionate use.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Scraps

[Chef Jim]

1 hour ago, Scraps said:

 

Conversely, you have no idea how safe it is nor the efficacy, particularly for someone on a ventilator.  Hence the reason why I have said repeatedly that it should be subjected to clinical studies and given for compassionate use.

Im still trying to figure where came to  the conclusion that the reason it’s not offered OTC is because of the lethal side effects.  How did you arrive at that conclusion?  Also again what is the level of these LETHAL side effects that you brought up?  What percentage of people on the drug have died from it. Do you even know?  Does ANYONE know? 

[Scraps]

9 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Im still trying to figure where came to  the conclusion that the reason it’s not offered OTC is because of the lethal side effects.  How did you arrive at that conclusion?  Also again what is the level of these LETHAL side effects that you brought up?  What percentage of people on the drug have died from it. Do you even know?  Does ANYONE know? 

How many people who died of Covid-19 would have been saved if only they had Hydroxychloroquine?

[Chef Jim]

1 minute ago, Scraps said:

How many people who died of Covid-19 would have been saved if only they had Hydroxychloroquine?

That is impossible to quantify, which you know, whereas the number of people that have died as a direct result (your LETHAL side effect assertion) is absolutely quantifiable.  Sooooo how many have had LETHAL side effects?  Come on man.  inquirin’ minds wanna know.  Can you at least with some level of certainty say a few?  A bunch? A lot? A smidge?  A schtickle?  

[Scraps]

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

That is impossible to quantify, which you know, whereas the number of people that have died as a direct result (your LETHAL side effect assertion) is absolutely quantifiable.  Sooooo how many have had LETHAL side effects?  Come on man.  inquirin’ minds wanna know.  Can you at least with some level of certainty say a few?  A bunch? A lot? A smidge?  A schtickle?  

It is a similarly impossible question  to answer, as I said quite a while ago.

[Chef Jim]

3 minutes ago, Scraps said:

It is a similarly impossible question  to answer, as I said quite a while ago.

No it’s not. Not at all. There is a definitive number of people that have had a LETHAL side effect from

the drug.  You just have no clue how many. None whatsoever.  Can you at least admit to that? 

[Nanker]

On 4/10/2020 at 12:14 PM, Scraps said:

 

Can you show me anyone who has been against this?

 

On 4/10/2020 at 12:49 PM, Nanker said:

 

Sure. According to these reports it's worse than dying. It must be tested under clinical trials that last for at least 3 - 4 years before Dr.s should be allowed to use it.

Hey, if it can save one person in 5 - 6 years from now, it'll probably be worth burying 20 - 30 million people before we get to that date.

 

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/why-trump-wrong-about-hydroxychloroquine-it-wont-help-treat-coronavirus-140862

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trump-hypes-potential-covid-19-drugs-but-evidence-so-far-is-slim/

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-insight/story/covid-19-the-bitter-truth-about-using-hydroxychloroquine-as-a-preventive-drug-1659116-2020-03-24

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2020/03/24/trump-backs-covid-19-hydroxychloroquine-and-azithromycin-therapy-weak-science/2904846001/

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ama-president-trump-hydroxychloroquine_n_5e8a9914c5b6e7d76c663197

 

 

 

On 4/10/2020 at 1:02 PM, Scraps said:

 

 

Those were interesting links.  Thank you.  I didn't read them as "it's worse than dying" though and I don't think meaningful trials would take 3-4 years.  This is a distortion in my opinion.

 

On 4/10/2020 at 3:36 PM, Nanker said:

You’re welcome. As a point of fact, a very close family relative ran clinical Phase 2, 3, and 4 trials.

My relative ran dozens of these global studies. They are non trivial exercises and that time and tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to run. 

 

If you’re following morbidity/mortality, it could take more than 5 years - until the event rate of efficacy for the morbidity event, e.g., stroke, heart attack, seizures, or death is documented. The resulting data has to be reviewed by an independent committee to determine if the event met the criteria established by the trial. 
 

It’s only following that process that the data has to be cleaned and normalized and a clinical study report gets written and an application can be filed with the FDA. This has to be done for each indication. That’s the process in the US.
 

In Europe the governing body is the EMEA. Japan has their own regulatory agency. They both have their own processes and requirements. 

 

Oh, and Cancer trials can go on indefinitely. 
 

But doing Clinical Trials to get drug approvals is a snap. Got it. 

Well, we’re waiting. You have your opinion. Others have the facts. Clinical trials last for years, years... YEARS!!!!

[Scraps]

2 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

No it’s not. Not at all. There is a definitive number of people that have had a LETHAL side effect from

the drug.  You just have no clue how many. None whatsoever.  Can you at least admit to that? 

I admitted that a long time ago, which doesn't change the fact that the drug has lethal side effects

 

3 minutes ago, Nanker said:

 

 

 

Well, we’re waiting. You have your opinion. Others have the facts. Clinical trials last for years, years... YEARS!!!!

 

3 minutes ago, Nanker said:

 

 

 

Well, we’re waiting. You have your opinion. Others have the facts. Clinical trials last for years, years... YEARS!!!!

From one of the links you provided

 

"

Dr. Megan Ranney, an emergency room physician and researcher at Brown University, echoed these remarks in a subsequent interview. She said the president’s advice to Americans made her “nervous” and there is, in fact, a “lot to lose.”

“This medication has major side effects including paranoia, hallucinations, suicidal thoughts, suppression of your blood counts so that you become more susceptible to infections. It can cause severe cardiac arrhythmias that can even cause death,” she said.

“They are not common side effects, but they are common enough that this should not be taken willy-nilly. It is not like water, it is not harmless, and it may have major side effects.”

She said she expected results from clinical trials for the drug to come through in as soon as a month or two."

 

I'll take the her word over yours.

[Koko78]

3 hours ago, Scraps said:

Why is this a Republican vs Deomocrat medication?  Like Dr Ackerman, I don't get that.  I'm not really either but it seem like the right wing media is making this a cultural divide issue.

 

It's a Republican vs. Democrat medication because Trump dared to speak it. The juvenile #resistance immediately started attacking Trump, and attacking the medication. It's all out there. The media was reporting favorably on the treatment until Trump brought it up. Then it became the devil with horrific side effects that needs years of study before it can be safely used to help people who need it now.

 

Here's a clue: it wasn't the "right wing media" that went histrionic after Trump mentioned the medication. It's not the "right wing media" who pushes any idiotic story or opinion that trashes Trump, even if people die because of it. These are the same types of media who act like clowns at press conferences, then decide to no longer air them, because Trump's approval numbers were going up (and theirs were going down.)

 

'Resist at all costs' has been the strategy of the left and their media partners for 3.5 years. If you can't see that by now, you're either willfully blind or plain stupid.

[3rdnlng]

5 minutes ago, Scraps said:

I admitted that a long time ago, which doesn't change the fact that the drug has lethal side effects

 

 

From one of the links you provided

 

"

Dr. Megan Ranney, an emergency room physician and researcher at Brown University, echoed these remarks in a subsequent interview. She said the president’s advice to Americans made her “nervous” and there is, in fact, a “lot to lose.”

“This medication has major side effects including paranoia, hallucinations, suicidal thoughts, suppression of your blood counts so that you become more susceptible to infections. It can cause severe cardiac arrhythmias that can even cause death,” she said.

“They are not common side effects, but they are common enough that this should not be taken willy-nilly. It is not like water, it is not harmless, and it may have major side effects.”

She said she expected results from clinical trials for the drug to come through in as soon as a month or two."

 

I'll take the her word over yours.

Only a month or two? Do you mind if I copy this so that I can send it out to the doctors giving care to those people who may very well be on their deathbeds? I'm sure this will make them feel so much better. 

1 minute ago, Koko78 said:

 

It's a Republican vs. Democrat medication because Trump dared to speak it. The juvenile #resistance immediately started attacking Trump, and attacking the medication. It's all out there. The media was reporting favorably on the treatment until Trump brought it up. Then it became the devil with horrific side effects that needs years of study before it can be safely used to help people who need it now.

 

Here's a clue: it wasn't the "right wing media" that went histrionic after Trump mentioned the medication. It's not the "right wing media" who pushes any idiotic story or opinion that trashes Trump, even if people die because of it. These are the same types of media who act like clowns at press conferences, then decide to no longer air them, because Trump's approval numbers were going up (and theirs were going down.)

 

'Resist at all costs' has been the strategy of the left and their media partners for 3.5 years. If you can't see that by now, you're either willfully blind or plain stupid.

Can't he be both?

[Scraps]

Just now, 3rdnlng said:

Only a month or two? Do you mind if I copy this so that I can send it out to the doctors giving care to those people who may very well be on their deathbeds? I'm sure this will make them feel so much better. 

Sure, go right ahead.  I've seen very little from doctors of medicine supporting this treatment.  Mostly it has come from Trump, Fox News and their marks.

[Koko78]

2 minutes ago, Scraps said:

Sure, go right ahead.  I've seen very little from doctors of medicine supporting this treatment.  Mostly it has come from Trump, Fox News and their marks.

 

Try taking off the blinders. It's pretty easy to see much more when you're not myopically focused on the bad orange man.

[3rdnlng]

Just now, Scraps said:

Sure, go right ahead.  I've seen very little from doctors of medicine supporting this treatment.  Mostly it has come from Trump, Fox News and their marks.

No, there's many medical professionals that have seen some good results. I've heard them asked if they'd take it themselves if circumstances were ripe for them to take it and they said they would. I've also heard that doctors and nurses who were tending to the coronavirus crowd or even in just the same hospital have taken it for their own protection. 

[Scraps]

Just now, Koko78 said:

 

Try taking off the blinders. It's pretty easy to see much more when you're not myopically focused on the bad orange man.

No blinders.  I'm a research engineer by training and expect proof.

[Nanker]

13 minutes ago, Scraps said:

I admitted that a long time ago, which doesn't change the fact that the drug has lethal side effects

 

 

From one of the links you provided

 

"

Dr. Megan Ranney, an emergency room physician and researcher at Brown University, echoed these remarks in a subsequent interview. She said the president’s advice to Americans made her “nervous” and there is, in fact, a “lot to lose.”

“This medication has major side effects including paranoia, hallucinations, suicidal thoughts, suppression of your blood counts so that you become more susceptible to infections. It can cause severe cardiac arrhythmias that can even cause death,” she said.

“They are not common side effects, but they are common enough that this should not be taken willy-nilly. It is not like water, it is not harmless, and it may have major side effects.”

She said she expected results from clinical trials for the drug to come through in as soon as a month or two."

 

I'll take the her word over yours.

You’re the one advocating doing clinical trials, yet you know NOTHING about what that entails. And you say other people want people to die. 

[Koko78]

Just now, Scraps said:

No blinders.  I'm a research engineer by training and expect proof.

 

Yet you've ignored "proof" at every turn when others have presented it.

[Scraps]

1 minute ago, 3rdnlng said:

No, there's many medical professionals that have seen some good results. I've heard them asked if they'd take it themselves if circumstances were ripe for them to take it and they said they would. I've also heard that doctors and nurses who were tending to the coronavirus crowd or even in just the same hospital have taken it for their own protection. 

I'm sure they might take it themselves, but there is a reason for double blind studies.  People aren't ncecesarily objective.

1 minute ago, Nanker said:

You’re the one advocating doing clinical trials, yet you know NOTHING about what that entails. And you say other people want people to die. 

I've never said I want others to die.  You and your ilk try to put those words in my mouth.

 

Sorry that your links don't support your POV.

2 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

Yet you've ignored "proof" at every turn when others have presented it.

Who has presented proof?  I'm happy to look at it.

[Scraps]

14 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

It's a Republican vs. Democrat medication because Trump dared to speak it. The juvenile #resistance immediately started attacking Trump, and attacking the medication. It's all out there. The media was reporting favorably on the treatment until Trump brought it up. Then it became the devil with horrific side effects that needs years of study before it can be safely used to help people who need it now.

 

Well even the the doctors who appear with Trump express some skepticism so the media's skepticism is understandable.

[Chef Jim]

15 minutes ago, Scraps said:

No blinders.  I'm a research engineer by training and expect proof.

Ahhhhh an engineer. Nuff said. I say this about engineers. They know everything about everything. Even things they know nothing about. ?

[Scraps]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

Ahhhhh an engineer. Nuff said. I say this about engineers. They know everything about everything. Even things they know nothing about. ?

Pretty much like you.

[B-Man]

25 minutes ago, Scraps said:

Sure, go right ahead.  I've seen very little from doctors of medicine supporting this treatment.  Mostly it has come from Trump, Fox News and their marks.

 

 

5 hours ago, B-Man said:

65 Percent of Physicians in New Survey Would Give Anti-Malaria Drugs to Their Own Family to Treat COVID-19

 

ATLANTA, April 8, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- Sixty-five percent physicians across the United States said they would prescribe the anti-malaria drugs chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine to treat or prevent COVID-19 in a family member, according to a new survey released today by Jackson & Coker, one of the country's largest physician staffing firms.

 

Only 11 percent said they would not use the drug at all.

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/65-percent-physicians-survey-anti-142800139.html

 

 

Posted right in between one of your twenty similar posts today

 

 

 

.

[Chef Jim]

2 minutes ago, Scraps said:

Pretty much like you.

Seriously?  The “well double dumbass on you!” retort. Bravo.  
 

I imagine as an engineer you have a very hard time saying “you’re right. I don’t know” don’t you. 

[Scraps]

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

Seriously?  The “well double dumbass on you!” retort. Bravo.  
 

I imagine as an engineer you have a very hard time saying “you’re right. I don’t know” don’t you. 

I said quite some time ago that it was an unfair and impossible question to answer.  If you think otherwise, prove it.  You tell me how many people have died from this drug.

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Scraps said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/mayo-clinic-cardiologist-inexcusable-ignore-hydroxychloroquine-side-effects-n1178776

 

I posted that earlier today.  Again, you can't read,

 

Yeah, I read "rare side effect" with no problem.  If it weren't rare...tens of millions of people wouldn't be on the drug every day.

 

31 minutes ago, Scraps said:

Sure, go right ahead.  I've seen very little from doctors of medicine supporting this treatment.  Mostly it has come from Trump, Fox News and their marks.

 

5 minutes ago, B-Man said:

Posted right in between one of your twenty similar posts today

 

He can't read.  Or think. 

[Chef Jim]

Just now, Scraps said:

I said quite some time ago that it was an unfair and impossible question to answer.  If you think otherwise, prove it.  You tell me how many people have died from this drug.

 No no no. This is not the point my always right engineer. You stated that it should not be sold OTC because of its LETHAL side effects.  So you must have some knowledge of the level of LETHAL side effects there have been. 
 

[3rdnlng]

23 minutes ago, Scraps said:

I'm sure they might take it themselves, but there is a reason for double blind studies.  People aren't ncecesarily objective.

I've never said I want others to die.  You and your ilk try to put those words in my mouth.

 

Sorry that your links don't support your POV.

Who has presented proof?  I'm happy to look at it.

Nobody is saying that they shouldn't do double blind studies. Quit being so ***** obtuse. There are many anecdotal instances in which people feel that HCQ saved their lives. There are other instances in which doctors are convinced that it is helpful. So, tell us, who are you going to vote for in November for president?

[Scraps]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

 No no no. This is not the point my always right engineer. You stated that it should not be sold OTC because of its LETHAL side effects.  So you must have some knowledge of the level of LETHAL side effects there have been. 
 

Yeah, I posted that earlier.

[Doc]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

 No no no. This is not the point my always right engineer. You stated that it should not be sold OTC because of its LETHAL side effects.  So you must have some knowledge of the level of LETHAL side effects there have been.

 

Wait, when did it become about OTC HCQ? 

[Chef Jim]

5 hours ago, Scraps said:

 

There is a reason this drug is not OTC.  Its because of the potentially lethal side effects.

Here you go Doc.  This is the one post that set me off. 

[Scraps]

1 minute ago, 3rdnlng said:

Nobody is saying that they shouldn't do double blind studies. Quit being so ***** obtuse. There are many anecdotal instances in which people feel that HCQ saved their lives. There are other instances in which doctors are convinced that it is helpful. So, tell us, who are you going to vote for in November for president?

Who is being obtuse?  The general feeling I get from those posting here is plow right ahead without studies.  Anecdotal evidence is enough.

 

I'm simply saying perform the studies and if doctors want to give it on a compassionate basis fine.  Why is that a problem?  

[Doc]

Just now, Chef Jim said:

Here you go Doc.  This is the one post that set me off. 

 

No, you were right to question about the side effects regardless of talk about it being available OTC.  At no time has anyone suggested it should be OTC and not administered by a doctor.

[Scraps]

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

Here you go Doc.  This is the one post that set me off. 

Why is that a problem?  It does have lethal side effects.

[Chef Jim]

Just now, Scraps said:

Who is being obtuse?  The general feeling I get from those posting here is plow right ahead without studies.  Anecdotal evidence is enough.

 

I'm simply saying perform the studies and if doctors want to give it on a compassionate basis fine.  Why is that a problem?  

I trust my doctor to prescribe something, that according to doc millions are already taking, that could potentially save my life even if it’s not been clinically proven. That’s what I pay him for. But the question is if lots of people are on it for other things what clinical trials are we looking for here thar have not already been done? 

3 minutes ago, Scraps said:

Why is that a problem?  It does have lethal side effects.

Ugh. So does that alcohol that it seems you’re swigging down by the handle today. Along with THOUSANDS of other drugs prescribed daily. 

[Scraps]

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

I trust my doctor to prescribe something, that according to doc millions are already taking, that could potentially save my life even if it’s not been clinically proven. That’s what I pay him for. But the question is if lots of people are on it for other things what clinical trials are we looking for here thar have not already been done? 

Dude - you are trying to make this confrontational, not me.

 

If you get Covid-19 and your Doctor prescribes this to you, fine.  I hope you get well.

 

As to your last question, this drug simply has not bee proven to be effective on Covid-19.  Covid-19 did not exist before.  I hope this drug works out.  I really do.  But this drug, alone or in combination with azithromycin have dangerous side effects.  I posted some to the cautions earlier from this link

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/mayo-clinic-cardiologist-inexcusable-ignore-hydroxychloroquine-side-effects-n1178776

 

I've read a bit about this drug and Covid-19 and if it is effective, it seems to be so for people with few symptoms that in people who are seriously ill.  That is one of the reasons why trials are important.  This drug may well be effective early in the illness but dangerous once people get seriously ill.  Why not find that out?

 

I just feel that I am reacting to people who are casting all caution aside in pursuit of a magic bullet that may not be a magic bullet.  You know, most people recover from this illness without hydroxychloroquine.

[3rdnlng]

22 minutes ago, Scraps said:

Who is being obtuse?  The general feeling I get from those posting here is plow right ahead without studies.  Anecdotal evidence is enough.

 

I'm simply saying perform the studies and if doctors want to give it on a compassionate basis fine.  Why is that a problem?  

What is your definition of a compassionate basis? 

[Scraps]

Just now, 3rdnlng said:

What is your definition of a compassionate basis? 

If a doctor and patient discuss the fact that the drug is not proven to be effective and they review the potential side effects and both agree to give it a try, go for it.