Browns interview Brian Daboll for HC; have interest in pairing with Bills Asst. GM Joe Schoen

[Dan]

Someone refesh my memory.... When do assistants for wild card teams interview?   Certainly not this week?

[BillsVet]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

I agree.

 

However, the HC guiding the game planning and Josh Allen doesn't throw 40 times a game...ever, at any point! If McD were guiding the offense all they would do is run the ball. Conservative is what he does! 

 

A third OC who delivers similar results with presumably better talent on offense definitely points more toward McD than it does the OC.  Hard to argue 3 OC's preferring safe offenses which take few risks.  

 

2 hours ago, BeastMaster said:

Could also be worse.

 

I would be optimistic that we can find someone better, but it's no sure thing.

 

There's only two things guaranteed in life and we all know what they are.  

 

That said, fortune favors the bold.  Audentes fortuna iuvat.  

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

21 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

BREAKING NEWS:

 

Ian Rapoport

 

@RapSheet

·

Sources tell me the #Browns have officially offered their open Head Coach position to twobillsdrive.com poster Reed83HOF.

 

 

Adam Schefter

 

@AdamSchefter

·

Twobillsdrive poster Reed83HOF has officially turned down the Cleveland Browns head coaching job, per sources. The #Browns search for their next head coach continues.

New at 5! Rob Ryan next Browns interview!

[starrymessenger]

I would not be saddened by Daboll's departure. But I would be concerned about the Bills ability to land a better replacement.

Im not sure a lot of the conservative play calling we have seen is Daboll and I don't know that I would trust McD to contribute to making the best selection. You might have to exclude any creative candidate with a strong personality and a mind of his own, however talented/experienced he might be.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

As far as third and short, dialing up long passes; I recall this happened in a couple of different games throughout the season.  It's not as prevalent as say, running Gore around the tackle for a loss, but it really just serves as an example of how Daboll tends to outsmart himself.

 

So I'll comment here with one recent example from the Pats game because I think it illustrates pretty clearly the questions I have and why I can't shake the feeling that things just aren't as well chosen or well designed as they ought to be.

 

The situation was 3rd and 7 on the Patriots 17 yd line.

The context is that the Bills had advanced the ball from the NE 31 with 4 successive run plays.  The first two, by Devin Singletary, gained 9 yds.  Josh gained 2 yds on a QB sneak to convert the 1st.

 

Next we had a "jet sweep" with John Brown, but the guy Ford was on downfield sniffed it out and got off his block so it went for 3 yds.  Ok.

Next play we have a fake jet sweep with McKensie crossing that is actually a handoff to Singletary.  It went off like a wet fart.  No one is fooled.  Morse' guy gets off his block to plug the hole and Motor tries to bounce it outside and gets stuffed.

 

So it's 3rd and 7, and we dial up the first real pass of the game to Knox.  Knox doesn't get a clean release downfield.  He probably has a route option, and he may or may not have been decisive about which he took and how deep it should be.   Knox was absolutely open, and Bills would have had a TD if they connected, so everyone is all tar-and-pitchforks to inaccurate Allen not hitting his relatively raw route-running TE on a 30 or 35 air-yard pass.  

 

1) I could be wrong, but I just don't think defenses and defensive coordinators are fooled by the things Daboll sometimes thinks they're fooled by.  The fake jet sweep following the actual jet sweep fooled no one.  I suspect there are "tells" that a top-coached top-defense like NE has picked up from personnel and from subtle movements.  Daboll said something to the effect of "we don't have time for self scouting".  IMO if you aren't self-scouting stuff like tendencies, looking for tells etcetera,  it's Foot, Gun, Self, Shoot.

2) If we want to try a deep shot to Knox, wouldn't it make some sense to dial that up on 2nd and 7 so we have another shot to convert if the lower-percentage throw doesn't connect?  The other two open options were Singletary in the flat at the LOS (and the defender a good 7 yds off)  and Beasley just making his break about 3+ yds short of the marker.  Those are great options for 2nd down - but for a 3rd down?

3) Maybe if you have a young QB who is honest and open about starting some games too "amped up" or jittery, the thing to do is to give him a couple of easy completions to move the chains, and not have him taking a deep shot (that he's struggled with all season) downfield on 3rd down.  But is that Daboll, or is that Allen?  If Allen takes the checkdown to Singletary, I think there's a very good chance he converts.  He just has to make one guy miss.  Allen is always looking past the chains on 3rd down, so maybe at least give him more options there?

 

These plays, to me, epitomize the paradox that is Brian Daboll and the mystery that is the Daboll/Allen interface.

 

They also epitomize what went down with the offense, even leaving aside the play calling.  Ford sticks his block on the jet sweep, Brown gets more than 3 yds, maybe he's gone for the TD or inside the 10.  Morse sticks his block on the fake Jet sweep, Singletary gains 3-4 yds at least and it's 3rd and 3.  Maybe Allen and McKensie and Singletary and Brown could do a better sales job.  Maybe they need one of the defenders to watch film of their practice and give them honest feedback - "Nope, Not fooled, let me see, what am I watching that tells me?"   It's not just "Allen missed that throw" there are miscues all along.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, CorkScrewHill said:

On getupESPN they were discussing the need for a leader of men .. they threw out Jack Del Rio and Jim Caldwell and then Domonique Foxworth threw out .... Rex Ryan who happened to be sitting across from him. Rex mentioned something about .. yeah someone who could win playoff games. Oh my the Browns would truly be must-see TV. Here is the link for the comedic value.  

 

 

Do you think....do you think they might....hire Rex Ryan?

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

They give 3 points and you're only acknowledging 1.  The author doesn't say you max protect 100% of the time....he says in order for the deep post to work, you must max protect effectively.   You're the one saying that you need to max protect 100% of the time.

He says a screen can beat the Cover 0.  You're going to run screens out of max protect?  What about the hot route?  You need to max protect there?

I never said to max protect 100% of the time.

 

What I said was, 

"The guy had extra time to game plan against the Ravens and he had no answer to stop the cover 0 blitz. Couldn't step up the protections? If they send 7, keep 7 in to defend. The offense isn't all just about Allen and the passing game. Its about the line, the receivers routes and getting open, its the run game too."

 

 

What my point was that Daboll didn't have an answer in max protecting, the screens, the hot reads, deep post or anything. The authors way of stopping the cover 0 blitz was to defeat it which is something Daboll never did... so the Ravens never stopped blitzing. The Bills didn't have an answer, hence the 6 sacks, 30 blitzes. 

 

This wasn't the first time the Ravens ran that scheme as they have been running all season against everyone. Only it intensified against Buffalo once they saw Allen couldn't hit the deep ball. Which was my point in another post in this thread. You have the strongest arm in the league and yet are 8.8% in completing passes over 30 yards. In this years first six games Allen was 0-10 on passes 30 yards or more.  Why is that?

 

Lastly, can anyone guess what defensive scheme the Texans will use against the Bills?

[Happy]

23 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

New at 5! Rob Ryan next Browns interview!

 

I believe the Rooney Rule applies to grossly obese individuals as well as minorities.

[Nihilarian]

34 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

A third OC who delivers similar results with presumably better talent on offense definitely points more toward McD than it does the OC.  Hard to argue 3 OC's preferring safe offenses which take few risks.    

In 2017 the Bills had Rick Dennison with TT and his passing offense was 31st in attempts, 31st in yards, 17th in TDs. That was the reason he was fired. 

 

For 2018 Brian Daboll was hired and he went 28th in passing attempts, 31st in yards, 32nd in TDs. That was with Anderson, Peterman, Allen and Barkley at QB. Buffalo offense, 30th in PF, 30th in Yards. 

 

For 2019 Brian Daboll as OC for a second season. The Bills were 24th in passing attempts, 26th in yards, 24th in TDs. With Allen and Barkley at QB. Buffalo Offense was 23 in PF, 24th in yards. Allen over 3000 yards passing with 20 TDs, 9 INTs. 510 rushing yards, 9 rushing TDs.

 

I don't see a third Bills OC under McD? 

 

 

Honestly, I don't see a really strong argument here for even keeping Daboll. Especially when you consider that Buffalo had a weak schedule and barely squeaked by some of the weaker teams. Beat a few decent teams and lost to teams now in the playoffs they faced in the regular season. Patriots 2x, Eagles, Browns, Ravens, Jets.

Losses to the Browns, Jets are the exceptions. 

 

Again, I see nothing that leads me to think that this current OC has the wherewithal to game plan a win in the playoffs. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

I never said to max protect 100% of the time.

 

What I said was, 

"The guy had extra time to game plan against the Ravens and he had no answer to stop the cover 0 blitz. Couldn't step up the protections? If they send 7, keep 7 in to defend. The offense isn't all just about Allen and the passing game. Its about the line, the receivers routes and getting open, its the run game too."

 

 

What my point was that Daboll didn't have an answer in max protecting, the screens, the hot reads, deep post or anything. The authors way of stopping the cover 0 blitz was to defeat it which is something Daboll never did... so the Ravens never stopped blitzing. The Bills didn't have an answer, hence the 6 sacks, 30 blitzes. 

 

This wasn't the first time the Ravens ran that scheme as they have been running all season against everyone. Only it intensified against Buffalo once they saw Allen couldn't hit the deep ball. Which was my point in another post in this thread. You have the strongest arm in the league and yet are 8.8% in completing passes over 30 yards. In this years first six games Allen was 0-10 on passes 30 yards or more.  Why is that?

 

Lastly, can anyone guess what defensive scheme the Texans will use against the Bills?

 

So Daboll did try to beat the blitz with deep routes - I don't remember if any of them were deep posts.  I'm thinking one?  And Josh didn't hit them.

 

To me it's a fair critique that we played 11 set the whole first half from what I recall.  Knox and McKensie played like 75% of the snaps and Singletary 84%.  So if your answer to the zero blitz is a deep route, any deep route, dial up max protect and give your young QB time to take a breath and set his feet before heaving, OR try one of the other alternatives.

 

It's like chess, Daboll reveals his grand opening strategy, the opponent counters, we can't execute, Daboll goes ?‍♂️

 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

You think Walsh would have made chicken salad with that horrendous line, those qbs, those garbage receivers, and no credible TE to speak of?

 

 

Walsh literally created a style of offense that eventually dominated the sport as a reaction to a lack of conventional "talent" offensively.

 

I'm not going out on a limb saying that he proved that he could do more with less.   

 

Brian Daboll?.......not so much.

 

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

In 2017 the Bills had Rick Dennison with TT and his passing offense was 31st in attempts, 31st in yards, 17th in TDs. That was the reason he was fired. 

 

For 2018 Brian Daboll was hired and he went 28th in passing attempts, 31st in yards, 32nd in TDs. That was with Anderson, Peterman, Allen and Barkley at QB. Buffalo offense, 30th in PF, 30th in Yards. 

 

For 2019 Brian Daboll as OC for a second season. The Bills were 24th in passing attempts, 26th in yards, 24th in TDs. With Allen and Barkley at QB. Buffalo Offense was 23 in PF, 24th in yards. Allen over 3000 yards passing with 20 TDs, 9 INTs. 510 rushing yards, 9 rushing TDs.

 

I don't see a third Bills OC under McD? 

 

 

Honestly, I don't see a really strong argument here for even keeping Daboll. Especially when you consider that Buffalo had a weak schedule and barely squeaked by some of the weaker teams. Beat a few decent teams and lost to teams now in the playoffs they faced in the regular season. Patriots 2x, Eagles, Browns, Ravens, Jets.

Losses to the Browns, Jets are the exceptions. 

 

Again, I see nothing that leads me to think that this current OC has the wherewithal to game plan a win in the playoffs. 

 

If a 3rd OC came in after Daboll presumably leaves, delivering similar bottom half of the NFL rankings points to the HC as much if not more than the new OC.  At some point, the HC's strategy the OC implements on that side of the ball is not oriented to being a top offensive unit.   

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Perhaps. I will say this: Gailey has been 50-50 with Fitz: good in 2011 and 2015, basement-level in 2010 and 2016, and a little below average in 2012. 

 

 

Obviously the big difference is that Daboll has NEVER been good.

 

I want the team to get talent around him.............Walt Corey had a #1 defense in 1988 with talent around him...........talent makes all but the very worst coaches look good...... but I've learned my lesson about making excuses for coaches who don't create synergy with their decision making.

 

We literally just saw Anthony Lynn take Greg Roman's playbook 3 years ago and do it considerably better than Roman had been doing.

 

Some coaches are just a lot better at calling games.

 

Lynn understood how to use Roman's plays in a manner that kept defense's on their heels.    Lynn ran it like a boxer actively setting up an attack while Roman was a puncher stepping in with a punch and then falling back and letting his opponent recover while he plotted his next punch.   Roman was literally getting the play call in with 12 seconds on the clock and putting his own offense on their heels.

 

 I'm of the belief that the right play caller could do a better job than Daboll with Daboll's playbook.

 

Now that isn't to say that he isn't doing a great job from Monday-Saturday but game days have just always been unkind to Daboll.   

 

 

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Next play we have a fake jet sweep with McKensie crossing that is actually a handoff to Singletary.  It went off like a wet fart.  No one is fooled.  Morse' guy gets off his block to plug the hole and Motor tries to bounce it outside and gets stuffed.

 

I feel like that’s a poor use of that simile. Isn’t the whole point that it’s a surprise? 

[MDH]

29 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Obviously the big difference is that Daboll has NEVER been good.

 

I want the team to get talent around him.............Walt Corey had a #1 defense in 1988 with talent around him...........talent makes all but the very worst coaches look good...... but I've learned my lesson about making excuses for coaches who don't create synergy with their decision making.

 

We literally just saw Anthony Lynn take Greg Roman's playbook 3 years ago and do it considerably better than Roman had been doing.

 

Some coaches are just a lot better at calling games.

 

Lynn understood how to use Roman's plays in a manner that kept defense's on their heels.    Lynn ran it like a boxer actively setting up an attack while Roman was a puncher stepping in with a punch and then falling back and letting his opponent recover while he plotted his next punch.   Roman was literally getting the play call in with 12 seconds on the clock and putting his own offense on their heels.

 

 I'm of the belief that the right play caller could do a better job than Daboll with Daboll's playbook.

 

Now that isn't to say that he isn't doing a great job from Monday-Saturday but game days have just always been unkind to Daboll.   

 

 

I kinda agree with this. I really like that Daball runs a multiple scheme and wants to attack the opposing defenses weakness. I like this in a theoretical way though as I’m not sure we have the pieces to run it effectively.  I think a few things hold the offense back from being as good as it could be.

One, talent. They’re an average group of players on that side of the ball. Upgrades at WR, OL and RB are needed and more experience at QB.

 

Two, execution. A QB who consistently makes good choices with the ball. It’s easy to blame Daboll but we see guys open andJosh either doesn’t come off his first read or just misses his wr. Drops come into play here too. Just too many overall. This is kinda a repeat of the talent point...

 

Third, and this speaks to the point you were making, playcalling. The tricky thing here is it’s tough to know if this is all on Daboll. I get the feeling that having an very good/great D is holding the offense back because McD is preaching to just not make mistakes to lose the game. That leads to conservative game plans. To be fair, given the lack talent and lack of consistent QB play that may be the best way to go this season, it’s hard to know for sure.

 

I do like the job Daboll has done with Allen. When he came out I had very little hope he’d ever develop I ot a franchise QB. He’s already better than I thought he’d be and hopefully he continues to grow. I give Daboll a lot of

credit for that and I think the league, in general, does too.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

46 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Obviously the big difference is that Daboll has NEVER been good.

 

I want the team to get talent around him.............Walt Corey had a #1 defense in 1988 with talent around him...........talent makes all but the very worst coaches look good...... but I've learned my lesson about making excuses for coaches who don't create synergy with their decision making.

 

We literally just saw Anthony Lynn take Greg Roman's playbook 3 years ago and do it considerably better than Roman had been doing.

 

Some coaches are just a lot better at calling games.

 

Lynn understood how to use Roman's plays in a manner that kept defense's on their heels.    Lynn ran it like a boxer actively setting up an attack while Roman was a puncher stepping in with a punch and then falling back and letting his opponent recover while he plotted his next punch.   Roman was literally getting the play call in with 12 seconds on the clock and putting his own offense on their heels.

 

 I'm of the belief that the right play caller could do a better job than Daboll with Daboll's playbook.

 

Now that isn't to say that he isn't doing a great job from Monday-Saturday but game days have just always been unkind to Daboll.  

 

You're correct that Daboll has a poor prior record as an NFL OC.  Generally, he had pretty poor talent too, of course.

 

I personally agree that Lynn did a better job with Roman's playbook than Roman did in 2016.

 

So here's the paradox:  the Ravens this year.  How is that working?  Is Roman calling the plays?  Is Roman creating the game plan but on game day Harbaugh calls them?  Is Harbaugh exercising oversight of the gameplan and game calling?   Or did Roman just learn something? What?

 

PS I think it's clear between the lines that Daboll getting plays in late has been a problem at times this year (what McDermott means by "operational issue") and that moving Daboll to the booth was one strategy McDermott tried to address this.

 

25 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

I feel like that’s a poor use of that simile. Isn’t the whole point that it’s a surprise? 

 

Perhaps so.  The point is, the only people surprised were on Offense by how well the Defense read and reacted.

[JPP]

Please oh please cleveland hire him as HC....unlikely but one can hope.....

[BADOLBILZ]

31 minutes ago, MDH said:

I kinda agree with this. I really like that Daball runs a multiple scheme and wants to attack the opposing defenses weakness. I like this in a theoretical way though as I’m not sure we have the pieces to run it effectively.  I think a few things hold the offense back from being as good as it could be.

One, talent. They’re an average group of players on that side of the ball. Upgrades at WR, OL and RB are needed and more experience at QB.

 

Two, execution. A QB who consistently makes good choices with the ball. It’s easy to blame Daboll but we see guys open andJosh either doesn’t come off his first read or just misses his wr. Drops come into play here too. Just too many overall. This is kinda a repeat of the talent point...

 

Third, and this speaks to the point you were making, playcalling. The tricky thing here is it’s tough to know if this is all on Daboll. I get the feeling that having an very good/great D is holding the offense back because McD is preaching to just not make mistakes to lose the game. That leads to conservative game plans. To be fair, given the lack talent and lack of consistent QB play that may be the best way to go this season, it’s hard to know for sure.

 

I do like the job Daboll has done with Allen. When he came out I had very little hope he’d ever develop I ot a franchise QB. He’s already better than I thought he’d be and hopefully he continues to grow. I give Daboll a lot of

credit for that and I think the league, in general, does too.

 

 

Did Daboll really transform Allen into something he otherwise most likely can't achieve with a different OC?

 

I don't believe that.

 

For those who thought that he and Lamar Jackson were long shot NFL QB's then I can see where people are amazed with the work of the offensive staffs that coach them.

 

I wasn't of that belief.     Liked both a lot.   Liked Mahomes a lot too and he was another guy who was thought to be a mess of bad habits that would take years to coach up.  

 

Bottom line:   it's a lot easier to build systems around your young QB's talents now than it once was.    

 

And Daboll isn't even building a system around Allen...........it's the exact opposite.    That's rarely a sign of outstanding coaching.

 

Again........I hope they retain Daboll for another year and put talent around him.   Allen has come this far he might as well master the system.   And frankly if the QB is any good then after 5 years or so you can basically hire a collaborator OC like Tom Moore so re-setting in year 3 seems like more work than it may be worth.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Do you think....do you think they might....hire Rex Ryan?

 

 

 

....and maybe he brings in Brandon???...........

[NoSaint]

48 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You're correct that Daboll has a poor prior record as an NFL OC.  Generally, he had pretty poor talent too, of course.

 

I personally agree that Lynn did a better job with Roman's playbook than Roman did in 2016.

 

So here's the paradox:  the Ravens this year.  How is that working?  Is Roman calling the plays?  Is Roman creating the game plan but on game day Harbaugh calls them?  Is Harbaugh exercising oversight of the gameplan and game calling?   Or did Roman just learn something? What?

 

PS I think it's clear between the lines that Daboll getting plays in late has been a problem at times this year (what McDermott means by "operational issue") and that moving Daboll to the booth was one strategy McDermott tried to address this.

 

 

Perhaps so.  The point is, the only people surprised were on Offense by how well the Defense read and reacted.

so they surprise you but not those around you. An interesting insight.