Joe B’s All 22 Review: Allen and Edmunds Struggle Big Time vs NE

[Phil The Thrill]

2 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Edmunds tends to play poorly against power run schemes which feature a fullback (or converted linebacker) who “takes the fight” to him.  He struggles with getting his pads low and engaging the lead blocker with violence.  It does seem fixable and he has definitely improved as the year has gone on.  He improved during the game on Saturday.  My bigger beef was with Star and Phillips - those dudes should give back their game checks from last week.

This isn’t necessarily the case though.  He played well versus a run heavy scheme like Baltimore.  It was perhaps, his most complete game:  

 

I think he has the ability your that he’s just very inconsistent.  

[GG]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Josh's first half was pretty awful... and then he had that one really nice throw to Knox and from there he started to put together a nice game.... unfortunately they didn't really give him a lot of opportunities after they went up 17-13. They went the conservative route with the lead per the norm resulting in a string of 3 and outs while the defense couldn't get off the field. Having no choice to get aggressive Josh put together a nice final drive with some ridiculous throws.... IMO Josh is always going to have a few throws where you wondering how an NFL QB misses that throw, but if he can adjust and figure out how to correct those easy throws he'll be a real playmaker at the QB position and his offenses will put up points.... assuming his HC and OC take the handcuffs off and stop with the conservative, run the clock out bull#### offensive strategy. 

 

Bills only had 3 series after they took the lead, and only on one of those you can argue that Daboll went conservative.   Two of those series were 3 and outs, but that wasn’t due to a conservative game plan.  It was OL protection failing or Allen misfiring.

 

Joe B’s analysis was spot on.  Allen was inconsistent in this game, with 3 great throws, but too many misses of the easy ones to pull out a win.   

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is true but his size and the range in the middle of the field is a massive part of our pass defense. It allows their safeties to play with more freedom because Edmunds can take away passing lanes that other teams have to bring safeties up to defend. 

 

I see the argument for moving Edmunds outside but in a pass first league I am increasingly of the view that you have to live with his occasional run game issues for the benefit of what he does in the pass game. And you have to get better play from your 1 tech to compensate. That means more from Star. 

 

 

The question is whether "generally good play at MLB within the scheme" is worth what you sacrifice potentially on the outside.

 

On the outside I think Edmunds might be a DPOY candidate............inside he will be always be vulnerable against teams that run the ball effectively.

 

To me he is their most talented defensive player and if I am an opposing offense I gladly substitute a fullback to take him out of the game.    He's always going to struggle against FB's IMO.........he's just such a big target and doesn't have the "elite" instincts of a great MLB to get to spots fast enough to defeat lead blocking.

 

It's like the reverse issue the Bills once had with Cornelius Bennett...........a guy who should have been a sure-fire HOF inside LB in a 3-4 but the Bills played outside as an edge rusher where his lack of length prevented him from being an elite pass rusher.   

 

To me..........you can find a different MLB and still run the scheme.    Preston Brown sufficed with Dareus playing well in front of him in 2017.    Sure you want better than that but it shows there is more than one way to do it.

 

Maybe we get lucky and the Lions fire Patricia and Snax Harrison becomes available.   He's having a down year but to me he's the kind of DT1T you gotta have in front of Edmunds because Harrison is not only huge he actually tackles RB's.    But there aren't many DT's that are capable of putting up 80 tackle seasons.   The easier fix is still probably finding a different MLB that mirrors the RB position more naturally.

[Kelly the Dog]

3 hours ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

it’s strange. He has made several spectacular catches. It’s rare for a guy with bad hands to then make the circus catches he has also made.

On closer look, most of his drops are concentration drops, where he starts to look upfield before he catches it. That can be taught and fixed. He does not have poor hands, he has great hands.

[Bob in STL]

4 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

He’s not saying that he could do better, Joe is just pointing out that Josh and Edmunds has bad games.  Do you disagree?

I

Did they have bad games?  
 

I think Josh missed on several throws that could have changed the outcome.  He also made some big plays that put us in the lead and within one score.  The entire offenses talked about how the Pats disguise their defense.  They do it better than anyone.  Mixed bag fir Allen.   Allen, Daboll, the entire offense need to be better.  

Edmunds was targeted by the Pats*.  They put on blocker on him every run down, no matter where he lined up, no matter the play, they had someone responsible for blocking him.   When Bellichek game plans for you then you must be playing pretty good.   Basically saying just block 49 and we will get yards.  Did the Bills did adjust?   No. 
 

Does every loss constitute a regression by young players  still developing?  Or is it safe to say they are still developing?   The later has less less journalistic impact.  The NFL is over analyzed and over hyped.  
 

 

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Come on.

You Come  on.  

 

Pick the two youngest guys on the team, playing the toughest positions,  and point out their mistakes as if that is the reason for the loss.  Sure, they didn’t make every play they needed to.  No one else did either.  
 

Bellichek and his staff totally beat McD again.  It was a TEAM loss. 

Edited December 25, 2019 by Bob in STL

[GoBills808]

Nobody in the front seven had a great game and I know this will sound like sour grapes but the Patriots offensive line really is allowed to basically do whatever they want without fear of getting called for holding. I've rewatched the first half now and it's blatantly obvious. First real bad example was 2nd and 4 from Bills 33 in the first quarter 5:29 remaining, Bills up 3-0. They pull LG and Oliver beats the double and is in position to make the play when C Karras who missed his block literally grabs him in a bear hug from behind with both arms wrapped around his body and pulls him out of the hole. Michel gains two yards. Should have been a 10 yard penalty, instead Pats convert a third and 2. After the play is over Karras actually looks around for the flag.

 

Very, very obvious holding not called.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The question is whether "generally good play at MLB within the scheme" is worth what you sacrifice potentially on the outside.

 

On the outside I think Edmunds might be a DPOY candidate............inside he will be always be vulnerable against teams that run the ball effectively.

 

To me he is their most talented defensive player and if I am an opposing offense I gladly substitute a fullback to take him out of the game.    He's always going to struggle against FB's IMO.........he's just such a big target and doesn't have the "elite" instincts of a great MLB to get to spots fast enough to defeat lead blocking.

 

It's like the reverse issue the Bills once had with Cornelius Bennett...........a guy who should have been a sure-fire HOF inside LB in a 3-4 but the Bills played outside as an edge rusher where his lack of length prevented him from being an elite pass rusher.   

 

To me..........you can find a different MLB and still run the scheme.    Preston Brown sufficed with Dareus playing well in front of him in 2017.    Sure you want better than that but it shows there is more than one way to do it.

 

Maybe we get lucky and the Lions fire Patricia and Snax Harrison becomes available.   He's having a down year but to me he's the kind of DT1T you gotta have in front of Edmunds because Harrison is not only huge he actually tackles RB's.    But there aren't many DT's that are capable of putting up 80 tackle seasons.   The easier fix is still probably finding a different MLB that mirrors the RB position more naturally.

 

Do you not think it makes you more vulnerable though in the pass game? I don't disagree with any of what you posted above but I just think the way the league is maybe the Bills do have to see a Snax type and live with whatever remaining vulnerability there is against the run in Tremaine for what he does in restricting passing opportunities in the middle. I know you can still slide him inside on obvious passing downs but he helps in early down situations when teams try and show run then attempt to pass. I dunno I just think he is a rare athlete and I might learn to accept he will never be a great run defender. Improve the D line's run stuffing ability and score more points early to force teams into passing. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

Did they have bad games?  
 

I think Josh missed on several throws that could have changed the outcome.  He also made some big plays that put us in the lead and within one score.  The entire offenses talked about how the Pats disguise their defense.  They do it better than anyone.  Mixed bag fir Allen.   Allen, Daboll, the entire offense need to be better.  

Edmunds was targeted by the Pats*.  They put on blocker on him every run down, no matter where he lined up, no matter the play, they had someone responsible for blocking him.   When Bellichek game plans for you then you must be playing pretty good.   Basically saying just block 49 and we will get yards.  Did the Bills did adjust?   No. 

You Come  on.  

 

Pick the two youngest guys on the team, playing the toughest positions,  and blame them for the loss.  Everyone will read that and agree.   Sure, they didn’t make every play they needed to.  No one else did either.  
 

Bellichek and his staff totally beat McD again.  It was a TEAM loss. 

This is really my takeaway as well. They ran a bunch of different misdirection on offense that I haven't seen from Pats all season. They were prepped for this defense and our staff didn't have checks to deal with different looks. 

[Bob in STL]

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

It means - critiquing Joe B’s analysis because he’s not coaching football is cheap and adds nothing to this discussion.  At least the guy is breaking down film and offering real football insight.  I’m sure its fairly subjective but he makes some really good points and I am tired of the cheap reactions to any critical writer.

I mean his “film breakdown” is from the point of a journalist, not a coach.  Sorry if that does not pass your criteria of adding to the discussion.  
 

To you it’s real football insight to me it’s not.  
 

 

[Tatonka68]

Joe B is just a typical talking head who never played the game. He was probably in the drama club in school. Pay no attention to what he says.

[Coach Tuesday]

8 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

I mean his “film breakdown” is from the point of a journalist, not a coach.  Sorry if that does not pass your criteria of adding to the discussion.  
 

To you it’s real football insight to me it’s not.  
 

 

Are you a coach in the NFL?  If not, according to you, your analyses are irrelevant.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Mango said:

you as well sir. 
 

the in-laws have me on edge already and it’s not even noon yet. 

 

Haha yeah, my kid (no longer a teenager as of yesterday - SOB!) is protecting me from my mother.  She's very sweet and extraordinarily high-maintenance.  

[jrober38]

Dawson Knox is going to be a monster next season.

 

He's open all the time which is incredibly rare for a tight ends. Most rely on their hands and ability to box out to create separation, and he's just open by a good step most of the time.

 

The rest seemed obvious. Allen makes the hard look really easy and the easy look really hard. He leaves huge plays on the field pretty much every week and you can't get away with missed scoring opportunities against top opposition.

 

Our run game was exposed. Seemed similar to when Philly ran it down our throats. 

[Bob in STL]

13 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Are you a coach in the NFL?  If not, according to you, your analyses are irrelevant.

Read my first post.  I don’t think you will find anywhere that I said it was irrelevant or not. 

 

Now that you mention it, Joe’s analysis, like mine and yours, is somewhat irrelevant.    Unless you think NFL coaches and GMs read them and make decisions based on them.   
 

 

2 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

Dawson Knox is going to be a monster next season.

 

He's open all the time which is incredibly rare for a tight ends. Most rely on their hands and ability to box out to create separation, and he's just open by a good step most of the time.

 

The rest seemed obvious. Allen makes the hard look really easy and the easy look really hard. He leaves huge plays on the field pretty much every week and you can't get away with missed scoring opportunities against top opposition.

 

Our run game was exposed. Seemed similar to when Philly ran it down our throats. 

He was raw out of college and he certainly has high potential.   I hope he works with Allen this off season and they accelerate their development together.  

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, Tatonka68 said:

Joe B is just a typical talking head who never played the game. He was probably in the drama club in school. Pay no attention to what he says.

 

You know, @Coach Tuesdayhas a point.  There are people here who have never played the game who say stuff worth hearing all the time.  There are reasons I'm not a big fan of Joe B, but just dismissing him because he's never played is shallow.

 

Joe has good points sometimes.  In an earlier assessment of the Pats game, Joe B correctly pointed out that bringing Roberts into the 4Q 8 yd line "need a TD" situation was a giant "tell" to the Pats that it was gonna be a run play because in that context, Roberts is almost always brought in as a blocker.  There may even have been something that was a "tell" to the Pats that it would be a QB run.  Belicheck*****(did I put enough?) feasts on that stuff, and I'm not at all persuaded that we do a good job of self-scouting and mixing things up in a way that DC's are actually flummoxed by.

[jrober38]

4 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

He was raw out of college and he certainly has high potential.   I hope he works with Allen this off season and they accelerate their development together.  

 

 

 

I don't think he's raw so much as he lacked opportunity and reps.

He played in a college offense with DK Metcalf (52 rec, 819 yards, 6 TDs this year) and AJ Brown (48 rec, 927 yards, 7 TDs this year). He didn't get a lot of looks, and thus didn't have many reps catching the ball. I don't think it was because he's raw. 

 

He's actually been very productive for a rookie tight end. He has produced at the same level as TJ Hockenson who was the #8 pick in the draft. 

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

I like Joe B's 22 reviews even if I don't always agree with them.  It's nice having a different set of eyes watching the game and I don't detect an agenda in what the guy writes.

 

I do think in this case the use of the word "regressed" to describe Allen's play against NE is wrong. As others have pointed out Allen significantly improved his game versus the earlier NE game.  So by definition he didn't regress.  A 103 QB rating further supports the idea that there was NO regression by Allen on Sunday.

 

What we did see though were missed opportunities by Allen & the Bills on offense.  This is an area where Allen needs to improve.  But on the road against an elite D in a game the Pats needed a lot more then we did, Allen was solid. 

 

As for Edmunds and the D let's not forget that the context of the game.  This NE team reminds me of those Bills teams in the immediate aftermath of the Super Bowl era.  You could tell they were sliding but they could still circle the wagons and bite your face off.  NE had been hearing for weeks how the O was the weak link and that Brady was over the hill and the Pats had no skill players.  This triggers a pride reaction and that's part of what we saw Sunday.  A Bill's D coming off of several intense defensive efforts played flat against an inspired NE offense.  No one should be surprised they rolled the Bills D and made young players like Edmunds look bad.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't mind his reviews.  I just didn't like the word he used.  I also sometimes think he gets stuff wrong.  Everyone does though.  Yes Allen missed opportunities.  There is no doubt about that.  I spoke on getting better under pressure.  I think sometimes he doesn't process quick enough and the line doesn't give him enough time.  That's where the misses usually come.  Its when he rushes a ball and or cant set.  When the game slows down for him and the line gets better, that will improve IMO.

[par73]

Allen spoke this week about the need to get off to a better start in games (could be a reason he is playing this week). I think if he is going to be the "guy," the team is going to have to live with his inconsistency. His good plays are going to have to outweigh the bad. He will never win awards for his accuracy.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

48 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

Dawson Knox is going to be a monster next season.

 

He's open all the time which is incredibly rare for a tight ends. Most rely on their hands and ability to box out to create separation, and he's just open by a good step most of the time.

 

The rest seemed obvious. Allen makes the hard look really easy and the easy look really hard. He leaves huge plays on the field pretty much every week and you can't get away with missed scoring opportunities against top opposition.

 

Our run game was exposed. Seemed similar to when Philly ran it down our throats. 

 

This post is one of the prime examples of the paradox that is jrober38.  Knox has a 20% drop rate.  That's simply unacceptable.  He makes some of the hardest catches look easy, then he drops far more routine throws.  He can run a clean route and gain separation on one play only a few minutes after he lets himself get checked and slowed by contact and runs a rather sloppy route on another.  Knox has fantastic potential, but it isn't realized yet, and whether or not he'll take that step is as of yet unknown.

 

Yet to jrober38, it's clear: "he's gonna be a monster next season"

 

Equally, we have the paradox that is Josh Allen.  He can make great plays, he can miss plays.  He has fantastic potential, but it isn't realized yet, and whether or not he'll take that step is as of yet unknown.

 

Yet to jrober38, it's clear Josh Allen is not a good passer of the football."

 

3 hours ago, mannc said:

Right, we should listen only to the opinions of current or former NFL coaches, like Rex Ryan, for example.  No one else knows football.

 

Oooooooooh!!!!! ?

[Scott7975]

53 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

Dawson Knox is going to be a monster next season.

 

He's open all the time which is incredibly rare for a tight ends. Most rely on their hands and ability to box out to create separation, and he's just open by a good step most of the time.

 

The rest seemed obvious. Allen makes the hard look really easy and the easy look really hard. He leaves huge plays on the field pretty much every week and you can't get away with missed scoring opportunities against top opposition.

 

Our run game was exposed. Seemed similar to when Philly ran it down our throats. 

 

Wow you are a hypocrite.