thebandit27 Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 5:20 PM, jrober38 said: Athleticism has next to nothing to do with predicting a quarterback's success. Brady, Brees, Montana, Manning, etc, none of these guys brought a lot to the table in terms of athleticism. Expand Now do Watson, Wilson, Mahomes, and Lamar
billsfan1959 Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 3:47 PM, jrober38 said: So do I. As I said yesterday though, only someone who completely lacks objectivity would think the defense hasn't overwhelmingly been responsible for our wins. Our offense and passing game by any metric you can look at is bottom 10 in the NFL. Our defense on the other hand is truly exceptional. Them allowing under 16 points per game is the overwhelming reason we're 10-4 right now. Expand Amazing how you seem to post so much more whenever Allen has a "statistically" bad game... Given your posting history regarding Allen, are you sure you should be lecturing others about objectivity? Cheer up, it could always be worse. Allen could have 29 turnovers like your mancrush, Winston, has....
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 5:20 PM, jrober38 said: Athleticism has next to nothing to do with predicting a quarterback's success. Brady, Brees, Montana, Manning, etc, none of these guys brought a lot to the table in terms of athleticism. Expand This is just plain crazy I'm sorry. 1
jrober38 Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 5:20 PM, thebandit27 said: So you're saying that Allen is more like Russell Wilson then? Expand Not a freaking chance. Russel Wilson has had his QB Rating above 95 seven of the eight seasons he's been in the NFL.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 3:47 PM, BuffaloHokie13 said: I'm just spitballing here, but part of me wondered if the last matchup had to do with NE knowing Daboll's tendencies. Letting Josh direct the O in real time could remove that advantage. Expand I do believe that Belicheck****** (did I miscount) was in Daboll's head, but I'm not sure it was tendencies. Their D managed to confuse and bemuse Josh. They batted and tipped balls, they confused him about coverage, they baited him into throwing picks. That was the first of the games where Daboll tried to win the game with Josh's arm and it went badly (this is where I say Belicheck******(did I miscount) was in Daboll's head). To his credit, Josh cites that game as a turning point where he realized he had to prepare differently, think about the game differently, and just be better overall. The first Pats game was the 1st prelim. Josh performed 2 SD below class average. He's been studying hard. Now we come to the 2nd prelim and the chance for Josh to show what he's learned.
Pokebball Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 5:20 PM, jrober38 said: Athleticism has next to nothing to do with predicting a quarterback's success. Brady, Brees, Montana, Manning, etc, none of these guys brought a lot to the table in terms of athleticism. Expand Wut? All of them are professional athletes.
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 There are certain schemes and QB types that will always do better in QB Rating. Can you say Bill Walsh and Joe Montana etc. vs John Elway and his pedestrian QBRs ? You can win with both.
Pokebball Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 4:39 PM, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Comparing stats is a losing battle, regardless of which side you are on. At the end of the day, JA has demonstrated the ability to read defenses and make high difficulty throws. That's the difference between him and EJ, Sanchez, or whoever else you want to point to. JA is making throws those guys couldn't dream of even attempting. Is he top 10 right now? No. Is he bottom 10? No. Expand His 4th quarter drives to win games is pretty damn hard to beat.
Nextmanup Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 5:24 PM, Pokebball said: Wut? All of them are professional athletes. Expand He means relative to this level of play. You can argue none of the mentioned names were high on athletic talent by NFL standards. As compared to someone like Michael Vick, who has athletic talent off the charts...but who also was a QB I would never want on the Bills.
jrober38 Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 5:21 PM, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said: Do you mind me asking wth does that mean too you? Expand It's not as hard to win in the NFL when you only need to average 17 points a week because your defense is so good. The defense is the reason we're 10-4 right now. #3 in yards and #2 in points. Anyone who can't admit that isn't watching the games. On 12/17/2019 at 5:21 PM, thebandit27 said: Now do Watson, Wilson, Mahomes, and Lamar Expand They're all great. They all run circles around Brady, Montana, Brees and Manning, who are the best QBs in NFL history. Now do Josh Freeman, Blaine Gabbert, Tim Tebow, Akili Smith, Vince Young, Jake Locker, EJ Manuel, Mitch Trubisky, Paxton Lynch, Marcus Mariota, Blake Bortles, Robert Griffin, Jamarcus Russel, Jay Cutler, Jason Campbell, JP Losman, Kyle Boller, David Carr, etc, etc, etc.
thebandit27 Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) On 12/17/2019 at 5:22 PM, jrober38 said: Not a freaking chance. Russel Wilson has had his QB Rating above 95 seven of the eight seasons he's been in the NFL. Expand Huh. So my memory of Seattle having the #1 scoring defense for 4 straight seasons is inaccurate? On 12/17/2019 at 5:26 PM, jrober38 said: It's not as hard to win in the NFL when you only need to average 17 points a week because your defense is so good. The defense is the reason we're 10-4 right now. #3 in yards and #2 in points. Anyone who can't admit that isn't watching the games. Expand Defense has scored zero points. They keep the team in games, but they have won zero games without the offense doing their job. 22nd in scoring is below average, not terrible, not bad, and certainly not inept. Stop trying so hard to make it look worse than it is; it further damages your credibility. Edited December 17, 2019 by thebandit27 3
jrober38 Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) On 12/17/2019 at 5:30 PM, thebandit27 said: Huh. So my memory of Seattle Bavin the #1 scoring defense for 4 straight seasons is inaccurate? Defense has scored zero points. They keep the team in games, but they have won zero games without the offense doing their job. 22nd in scoring is below average, not terrible, not bad, and certainly not inept. Stop trying so hard to make it look worse than it is; it further damages your credibility. Expand I'm not trying to make anything look worse. Our offense isn't good. Our defense is elite. You guys seem to be arguing the opposite. If you want to argue Josh Allen is on the same level as Russell Wilson, I don't know what to say because that's complete insanity. Edited December 17, 2019 by jrober38 2
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 5:26 PM, jrober38 said: It's not as hard to win in the NFL when you only need to average 17 points a week because your defense is so good. The defense is the reason we're 10-4 right now. #3 in yards and #2 in points. Anyone who can't admit that isn't watching the games. Expand So essentially what you're saying is that if you have a good defense the QB gets little to no credit if his QB rating (which is largely context dependent) isn't high enough. On 12/17/2019 at 5:31 PM, jrober38 said: I'm not trying to make anything look worse. Our offense isn't good. Our defense is elite. You guys seem to be arguing the opposite. Expand Now I know what you're doing.
Pokebball Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 5:26 PM, Nextmanup said: He means relative to this level of play. You can argue none of the mentioned names were high on athletic talent by NFL standards. As compared to someone like Michael Vick, who has athletic talent off the charts...but who also was a QB I would never want on the Bills. Expand I was comparing their athleticism to mine. Sorry Really, they are all professional athletes. One throws better, one runs better, one is stronger, one is faster. Some of these discussions get kinda wonky at times. 1
jrober38 Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) On 12/17/2019 at 5:32 PM, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said: So essentially what you're saying is that if you have a good defense the QB gets little to no credit if his QB rating (which is largely context dependent) isn't high enough. Expand No, I'm saying if you have a great defense and a QB who is bottom 10 in practically every passing category, they deserve little credit. I think Josh is a bottom 10 QB in the NFL right now. If that continues for another year or two we should be looking for someone new. Hopefully he improves and ranks in the top half of the league next year. Where do you think he should rank? Top half? Top 10? Edited December 17, 2019 by jrober38 1
Alphadawg7 Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 4:45 PM, C.Biscuit97 said: But Miami sucks. Would love to see it against a good team. I definitely have seen progress but I would love to see it against a good opponent. We will have our chance mostly in the playoffs. Expand People forget that Balt and Pitt have excellent defenses, Pats too and lots of very good QBs had subpar or bad games against those defenses this year. Its easy to say I want to see him do it against "good" teams because of that, but its also unfair to expect him to have good games against top 5 defenses, especially with the mediocre cabinet of weapons we have. I mean our top 3 WR's average out to 5'10" and 180 pounds right now. Add in, this team is young, we have 9 new players on offense, and our QB has just a season and half worth of starts in the NFL, and its not a shock we aren't having an offensive explosion against elite defenses. Especially when better offenses have struggled against them too. The key for me...is that through the struggles, our team keeps pressing forward and ups their play in the 4th quarter to keep battling. We should have won the NE game, and probably do if not for Josh getting hurt (even though we really lost that game squarely on ST) and we took the best team in the NFL down to the final play despite the fact our OL was a revolving door against the Ravens. What I have seen from this team...is an offense that is good enough to win against anyone in the NFL right now...and thats because our defense will help keep the games close and our offense and Allen especially are strong down the stretch in crunch time. End of the day...this season isnt about THIS season. This season was and is all about taking a big step forward, which we clearly have and are. If we go one and done in the playoffs, doesnt matter (although for the record I believe we will win in the playoffs and at least make the AFCC game). This season is already a big success, one offseason was not going to "finish" our build. This team is setup for long term sustainable success from a youth standpoint, cap standpoint, coaching and GM standpoint, and IMO QB standpoint. Now on the back of this season (wherever we finish), Beane can focus on rounding out the weaker spots on this roster, and clearly that is going include offensive weapons at the top of the list to help us take another offensive growth step next year. 3
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 5:33 PM, jrober38 said: No, I'm saying if you have a great defense and a QB who is bottom 10 in practically every passing category, they deserve little credit. I think Josh is a bottom 10 QB in the NFL right now. Where do you think he should rank? Top half? Top 10? Expand Well there is a ranking system (ELO) that attempts to put a bit of context to it and he's been generally in the 11-16 range. You have stated that you think he's in the 26-30 or bottom tier. I find that absurd.
thebandit27 Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 5:31 PM, jrober38 said: I'm not trying to make anything look worse. Our offense isn't good. Our defense is elite. You guys seem to be arguing the opposite. Expand Ok now you're making things up. Nobody said the opposite in any way, shape, or form. That's an outright lie. You use adjectives like "severely limited" and statements like "last in every metric" when it's utterly untrue. There's no reason to get upset when folks point that out. The fact of the matter is that the defense is great, but it's factually incorrect to credit them with any wins when they've scored zero points. Not a difficult concept. NE's defense has scored 5 touchdowns. They've scored another 3 on blocked punts. THAT'S winning games in spite of the offense.
Pokebball Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 On 12/17/2019 at 5:33 PM, jrober38 said: No, I'm saying if you have a great defense and a QB who is bottom 10 in practically every passing category, they deserve little credit. I think Josh is a bottom 10 QB in the NFL right now. If that continues for another year or two we should be looking for someone new. Hopefully he improves and ranks in the top half of the league next year. Where do you think he should rank? Top half? Top 10? Expand If you lined up all of the starting QBs on the playground and did a pick 'em, I think Josh wold go before 20th.
jrober38 Posted December 17, 2019 Posted December 17, 2019 (edited) On 12/17/2019 at 5:36 PM, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said: Well there is a ranking system (ELO) that attempts to put a bit of context to it and he's been generally in the 11-16 range. You have stated that you think he's in the 26-30 or bottom tier. I find that absurd. Expand ELO is for teams isn't it? He's 28th in DYAR, 28th in DVAO, and 28th in QBR. Edited December 17, 2019 by jrober38
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