Buccaneers waived CB Vernon Hargreaves

[Mopreme]

Former first round pick. I understand that he has not played well but perhaps an upgrade over Levi Wallace?  Maybe change of scenery does the trick? 

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Mopreme said:

Former first round pick. I understand that he has not played well but perhaps an upgrade over Levi Wallace?  Maybe change of scenery does the trick? 

 

I would claim him, and there are 4-5 players that can walk to make the room for him

[CEN-CAL17]

A high level potential CB won’t make it past the bottom 10 on waiver priority. No way do the Bills have a shot.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, CEN-CAL17 said:

A high level potential CB won’t make it past the bottom 10 on waiver priority. No way do the Bills have a shot.

 

Probably don't, But still put in the paperwork.  Just like people though with Gordon and yet we didn't claim him either and Seattle got a top end 50/50 catch WR (man we could use one of them)

[Luka]

8 minutes ago, Mopreme said:

Former first round pick. I understand that he has not played well but perhaps an upgrade over Levi Wallace?  Maybe change of scenery does the trick? 

 

I think pretty much anyone would be an upgrade over Wallace at this point. The question would be, how good is Hargreaves against the run? Since he wouldn't be expected to be a #1 corner here.

 

[CEN-CAL17]

Tennessee at 5-5 chomping at the bit for CB help is definitely in the market....

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Luka said:

 

I think pretty much anyone would be an upgrade over Wallace at this point. The question would be, how good is Hargreaves against the run? Since he wouldn't be expected to be a #1 corner here.

 

ANALYSIS

STRENGTHS

 Premier, quick twitch athlete with explosion pulsing through his hips and feet. Instant click-­and-­close action to explode forward and attack the throw. Vertical springs to go up and over receivers at the high point. Smooth, controlled backpedal with ability to weave and mirror route progressions. Plays with outstanding body control and balance. Feet are electric. Can overwhelm lesser opponents across from him. Instinctive and urgent in his play. Excels from press, off or zone coverage. Fiery competitor with a strong desire to own the pass. Has quick, soft hands. Posted 38 passes defensed and 10 interceptions over last three years. Could see early kick or punt return action. Unwilling to stay blocked and doesn't hesitate for one moment in run support and against wide receiver screens. Chest­-up tackler who runs through his target.

WEAKNESSES

 Lean, wiry frame. Aggressive nature allows teams to bait him with double moves. Quicker than fast and doesn't have closing speed to make mistakes underneath and still recover on top. Allowed 16.5 yards per completion this season. Scouts worry about his height outside. Big receivers will pose a challenge on the next level. Had his two worst games of the season in SEC Championship game against Alabama and Citrus Bowl against Michigan. Willingness to throw body around in run support could cause him to break down.

DRAFT PROJECTION

 Round 1

NFL COMPARISON

 Joe Haden

BOTTOM LINE

 While scouts have voiced some concerns about Hargreaves' size and recovery speed, you won't find anyone who doesn't admire his competitiveness and consistency of production. Hargreaves has a level of suddenness and explosiveness in his movements that should always have him near the ball. With top-notch ball skills and exceptional instincts that drew praise from Alabama's Nick Saban, Hargreaves possesses the football makeup to become a Pro Bowl cornerback.

Edited November 12, 2019 by MAJBobby

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

3 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

I think pretty much anyone would be an upgrade over Wallace at this point. The question would be, how good is Hargreaves against the run? Since he wouldn't be expected to be a #1 corner here.

 

 

This is said every year about someone, and it is never true. 

[Luka]

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

ANALYSIS

STRENGTHS

 Premier, quick twitch athlete with explosion pulsing through his hips and feet. Instant click-­and-­close action to explode forward and attack the throw. Vertical springs to go up and over receivers at the high point. Smooth, controlled backpedal with ability to weave and mirror route progressions. Plays with outstanding body control and balance. Feet are electric. Can overwhelm lesser opponents across from him. Instinctive and urgent in his play. Excels from press, off or zone coverage. Fiery competitor with a strong desire to own the pass. Has quick, soft hands. Posted 38 passes defensed and 10 interceptions over last three years. Could see early kick or punt return action. Unwilling to stay blocked and doesn't hesitate for one moment in run support and against wide receiver screens. Chest­-up tackler who runs through his target.

WEAKNESSES

 Lean, wiry frame. Aggressive nature allows teams to bait him with double moves. Quicker than fast and doesn't have closing speed to make mistakes underneath and still recover on top. Allowed 16.5 yards per completion this season. Scouts worry about his height outside. Big receivers will pose a challenge on the next level. Had his two worst games of the season in SEC Championship game against Alabama and Citrus Bowl against Michigan. Willingness to throw body around in run support could cause him to break down.

DRAFT PROJECTION

 Round 1

NFL COMPARISON

 Joe Haden

BOTTOM LINE

 While scouts have voiced some concerns about Hargreaves' size and recovery speed, you won't find anyone who doesn't admire his competitiveness and consistency of production. Hargreaves has a level of suddenness and explosiveness in his movements that should always have him near the ball. With top-notch ball skills and exceptional instincts that drew praise from Alabama's Nick Saban, Hargreaves possesses the football makeup to become a Pro Bowl cornerback.

 

He was excellent for the Gators but I meant more over the last few seasons in the NFL. I'm surprised to see he was cut for "lack of hustle." Attitude problem or unable to perform at this level?

Edited November 12, 2019 by Luka

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Luka said:

 

He was excellent for the Gators but I meant more over the last few seasons in the NFL. I'm surprised to see he was cut for "lack of hustle." Attitude problem or unable to perform at this level?

 

There was a Work ethic Problem.  Same things that were said about Fitzpatrick out of MIA.  Get him in a different city and now look at Fitzpatrick.  There is ZERO Risk and a HIGH reward (Like Gordon) they SHOULD put a claim in for him.

 

Remember TB picked up his 5th year Option for a Reason.

Edited November 12, 2019 by MAJBobby

[Luka]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

 

There was a Work ethic Problem.  Same things that were said about Fitzpatrick out of MIA.  Get him in a different city and now look at Fitzpatrick.  There is ZERO Risk and a HIGH reward (Like Gordon) they SHOULD put a claim in for him.

 

Remember TB picked up his 5th year Option for a Reason.

 

The Bills should definitely have a claim in, just like they should have for Josh. Worries me that Beane has started to sit back and not do anything. This roster is far from complete.

 

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Luka said:

 

The Bills should definitely have a claim in, just like they should have for Josh. Worries me that Beane has started to sit back and not do anything. This roster is far from complete.

 

 

He is doing what McConsrvative wants him to do.  See that is the problem hiring the GM after the HC and having BOTH report directly to Ownership.  If there is a disagreement who wins?  McConservative does

[Luka]

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

He is doing what McConsrvative wants him to do.  See that is the problem hiring the GM after the HC and having BOTH report directly to Ownership.  If there is a disagreement who wins?  McConservative does

 

Wich is crazy to me. Wasn't that the situation with Whaley and Marrone also? Not a sustainable organization model. GM and scouts gotta be able to have more input than that.

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Luka said:

 

Wich is crazy to me. Wasn't that the situation with Whaley and Marrone also? Not a sustainable organization model. GM and scouts gotta be able to have more input than that.

 

Yep same reporting model with Whaley and Marrone and Whaley and Rex

[MiltonWaddams]

Hargreaves would be a worthy addition to the team, But what about Kevin Johnson sitting behind Wallace? Should we not give him the opportunity to show that he can succeed in a role he succeeded in 2 seasons ago? 

[Boatdrinks]

He will be claimed by a team higher on the waiver priority. 

[H2o]

I know the question without reading a single post from the thread. Nope. 

[dave mcbride]

If by some chance he falls to the Bills, they should grab him immediately. He's a big talent upgrade over Johnson, if nothing else, and will give Wallace competition. 

 

Regarding Wallace, he's had a tough couple of games, but his overall performance is moderately OK. He played well early on, and players at the CB position do have ups and downs. But he's physically overmatched too often.

 

Interesting fact: he's the fifth most targeted CB in the NFL in 2019, and has given up the fifth most receptions. Part of that comes from playing across from Tre White, of course. But if he's the fifth most targeted guy and giving up the fifth most receptions, that tells me he's average. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by dave mcbride

[K-9]

32 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

He is doing what McConsrvative wants him to do.  See that is the problem hiring the GM after the HC and having BOTH report directly to Ownership.  If there is a disagreement who wins?  McConservative does

Simple as that, huh? 

[dave mcbride]

32 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

He is doing what McConsrvative wants him to do.  See that is the problem hiring the GM after the HC and having BOTH report directly to Ownership.  If there is a disagreement who wins?  McConservative does

I think the bigger question driving the conversation is whether he's a good matchup zone player. If he is, than I suspect McDermott will take him seriously. The fall-off in Wallace's play has to be concerning for him. 

[MAJBobby]

Just now, K-9 said:

Simple as that, huh? 

 

Who do you think wins out in a player disagreement between Beane and McD?  Who has the final say in Buffalo. I am pretty sure I read it is McD.

Just now, dave mcbride said:

I think the bigger question driving the conversation is whether he's a good matchup zone player. If he is, than I suspect McDermott will take him seriously. The fall-off in Wallace's play has to be concerning for him. 

STRENGTHS

 Premier, quick twitch athlete with explosion pulsing through his hips and feet. Instant click-­and-­close action to explode forward and attack the throw. Vertical springs to go up and over receivers at the high point. Smooth, controlled backpedal with ability to weave and mirror route progressions. Plays with outstanding body control and balance. Feet are electric. Can overwhelm lesser opponents across from him. Instinctive and urgent in his play. Excels from press, off or zone coverage.

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Who do you think wins out in a player disagreement between Beane and McD?  Who has the final say in Buffalo. I am pretty sure I read it is McD.

STRENGTHS

 Premier, quick twitch athlete with explosion pulsing through his hips and feet. Instant click-­and-­close action to explode forward and attack the throw. Vertical springs to go up and over receivers at the high point. Smooth, controlled backpedal with ability to weave and mirror route progressions. Plays with outstanding body control and balance. Feet are electric. Can overwhelm lesser opponents across from him. Instinctive and urgent in his play. Excels from press, off or zone coverage.

Not putting too much stock in this, but he appears to be having a pretty bad season. Here's Wallace: https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/levi-wallace/25445. And here's Hargreaves: https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/vernon-hargreaves/10645

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

Not putting too much stock in this, but he appears to be having a pretty bad season. Here's Wallace: https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/levi-wallace/25445. And here's Hargreaves: https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/vernon-hargreaves/10645

 

Could be a down year, the fact is they initially in the offseason did pick up his 5th year option Maybe a change a scenery helps either way low risk move

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Could be a down year, the fact is they initially in the offseason did pick up his 5th year option Maybe a change a scenery helps either way low risk move

I just did some research on him. People covering the Bucs say he's been absolutely terrible this season, and he only played one game last year. The year before he missed half the season. The only full season he had was his rookie season in 2016. Basically: numerous injuries + poor play + bad attitude (the lack of hustle issue isn't the first time he's had problems) = getting the axe. Them picking up his fifth year option is just bad management, which is explained I guess by the fact that they're a very bad organization. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by dave mcbride

[DCOrange]

7 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Not putting too much stock in this, but he appears to be having a pretty bad season. Here's Wallace: https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/levi-wallace/25445. And here's Hargreaves: https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/vernon-hargreaves/10645

As someone that watches almost all Bucs games, this has probably been his best season to date. Simply put, he's been pretty much terrible each season of his career.

 

The belief was that he just wasn't a good fit for the zone defense that Tampa used his first few years and that using him as more of a press corner the way he succeeded in college would turn his game around, hence picking up his option. Instead, he's continued to be bad.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

I just did some research on him. People covering the Bucs say he's been absolutely terrible this season, and he only played one game last year. The year before he missed half the season. The only full season he had was his rookie season in 2016. Basically: numerous injuries + poor play + bad attitude (the lack of hustle issue isn't the first time he's had problems) = getting the axe. Them picking up his fifth year option is just bad management, which is explained I guess by the fact that they're a very bad organization. 

 

So Very similar stuff we hear about most players.  And yet those other player can fix themselves or excel in other teams.  Hughes a perfect example. Much like Gordon there would me Zero Risk to claiming him.

[dave mcbride]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

 

So Very similar stuff we hear about most players.  And yet those other player can fix themselves or excel in other teams.  Hughes a perfect example. Much like Gordon there would me Zero Risk to claiming him.

If you pick him up via waivers, aren't you on the hook for the fifth-year commitment because you're basically picking up the contract? I'm not sure, but there is a contractual obligation to pay him that $9+ million, right? If so, he's not going to be picked via waivers by anyone. Do you know the answer to that?

[apuszczalowski]

44 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

Wich is crazy to me. Wasn't that the situation with Whaley and Marrone also? Not a sustainable organization model. GM and scouts gotta be able to have more input than that.

Except that these 2 guys work well together and may have been a package with McD wanting Beane as the GM here.  I think from the hiring of McD that they had always planned on Beane as the GM but couldn't hire him when they hired McD. This wasn't ownership forcing the 2 together.

 

These 2 guys seem to be on the same page when it comes to what they want

[MAJBobby]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

If you pick him up via waivers, aren't you on the hook for the fifth-year commitment because you're basically picking up the contract? I'm not sure, but there is a contractual obligation to pay him that $9+ million, right? If so, he's not going to be picked via waivers by anyone. Do you know the answer to that?

 5th year Option is not Guaranteed.  They can cut him at end of season no harm

[dave mcbride]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

 5th year Option is not Guaranteed.  They can cut him at end of season no harm

Thanks. I didn't know that. Given that, they'd basically on the hook for about $1 million-$1.1 million (his base is $2.4 million). 

[K-9]

17 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Who do you think wins out in a player disagreement between Beane and McD?  Who has the final say in Buffalo. I am pretty sure I read it is McD.

STRENGTHS

 Premier, quick twitch athlete with explosion pulsing through his hips and feet. Instant click-­and-­close action to explode forward and attack the throw. Vertical springs to go up and over receivers at the high point. Smooth, controlled backpedal with ability to weave and mirror route progressions. Plays with outstanding body control and balance. Feet are electric. Can overwhelm lesser opponents across from him. Instinctive and urgent in his play. Excels from press, off or zone coverage.

How often do you envision these types of “showdowns” occur in the organization? What do you imagine they are about? Are you under the impression that the only two viewpoints considered are those of the HC and GM? Can you appreciate the difference between the acquisition of personnel vs. the utilization of personnel and how that difference requires to different levels of decision making? 
 

The idea that any and all decisions are McD’s to make in the organization is just not realistic.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, K-9 said:

How often do you envision these types of “showdowns” occur in the organization? What do you imagine they are about? Are you under the impression that the only two viewpoints considered are those of the HC and GM? Can you appreciate the difference between the acquisition of personnel vs. the utilization of personnel and how that difference requires to different levels of decision making? 
 

The idea that any and all decisions are McD’s to make in the organization is just not realistic.

 

Just asking Who has the Pull.  That is why I think Beane outlasts McD.  

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Thanks. I didn't know that. Given that, they'd basically on the hook for about $1 million-$1.1 million (his base is $2.4 million). 

 

Yeah that is about right by looking at his contract.

[K-9]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

 

Just asking Who has the Pull.  That is why I think Beane outlasts McD.  

Depends on who is pulling for what. 
 

And I agree Beane will outlast McD. If Allen pans out, of course. 

[MAJBobby]

Just now, K-9 said:

Depends on who is pulling for what. 
 

And I agree Beane will outlast McD. If Allen pans out, of course. 

 

I dont even think that.

 

Beane chose Allen over Rosen (smart) and Jackson (not looking smart).

 

McD Pass on Mahomes and Watson and Rosen and Jackson.

 

So I think Beane will get another shot at finding a QB

[John from Riverside]

44 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

I dont even think that.

 

Beane chose Allen over Rosen (smart) and Jackson (not looking smart).

 

McD Pass on Mahomes and Watson and Rosen and Jackson.

 

So I think Beane will get another shot at finding a QB

We have our QB....there is no reason to have another "shot"

 

What we need to do is focus on adding offensive talent AROUND Josh Allen.  Brown and Bease were a good start but more is needed.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

We have our QB....there is no reason to have another "shot"

 

What we need to do is focus on adding offensive talent AROUND Josh Allen.  Brown and Bease were a good start but more is needed.

 

I have been shaken with Josh Allen so I am not willing to hang my hat on that he is a Franchise QB

[apuszczalowski]

43 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

I dont even think that.

 

Beane chose Allen over Rosen (smart) and Jackson (not looking smart).

 

McD Pass on Mahomes and Watson and Rosen and Jackson.

 

So I think Beane will get another shot at finding a QB

I don't think it will come down to this because I don't think there's any kind of rift between the 2 where it would have to be one or the other. If the Bills feel they need to make a change, they would probably dump both because of their connection, or they would look at what the issue seems to be (lack of talent = GM, Poor play = Coach) and chose one or the other based on that. Because they have had some success so far, they will get atleast one more year to prove themselves before they even start thinking of replacing either of them. The Pegulas have been convinced that they would need to be patient with a slow rebuild to get a consistent winner and wont make quick decisions on them.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 

I have been shaken with Josh Allen so I am not willing to hang my hat on that he is a Franchise QB

Thats fine....but you dont draft a high potential raw rookie QB and change course when your having a winning season.

 

Teams dont do that.....for good reason.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, apuszczalowski said:

I don't think it will come down to this because I don't think there's any kind of rift between the 2 where it would have to be one or the other. If the Bills feel they need to make a change, they would probably dump both because of their connection, or they would look at what the issue seems to be (lack of talent = GM, Poor play = Coach) and chose one or the other based on that. Because they have had some success so far, they will get atleast one more year to prove themselves before they even start thinking of replacing either of them. The Pegulas have been convinced that they would need to be patient with a slow rebuild to get a consistent winner and wont make quick decisions on them.

 

While Beane gets the players he gets the groceries in accordance with the HC recipe.  that is why I wont marry these too together.

Just now, John from Riverside said:

Thats fine....but you dont draft a high potential raw rookie QB and change course when your having a winning season.

 

Teams dont do that.....for good reason.

 

When he is being coached away from that ability that they drafted it becomes concerning.  1. Either the QB cant handle what they are trying to do or 2. The Coaching staff is trying to put him in a box he doesnt fit.  He has alot of the no good enough discussions with TT and I fear we are going to be there with Allen as well

Edited November 12, 2019 by MAJBobby

[apuszczalowski]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 

I have been shaken with Josh Allen so I am not willing to hang my hat on that he is a Franchise QB

So far he has looked like he could be a good starter in the league (like a Marriotta or Tannehill, maybe a Cousin's) but not a Franchise guy at this time (like a Rogers, or Brees). I would say between those 2 levels is one more which would be a really good starter who needs a little help to get the team to the next level (Like a Stafford, or Ryan, or Rivers), a guy who can't do it all on their own but aren't the reason why their team is bad. I doubt he ever gets to the top level of elite Goat though (Brady & Manning)