Stank_Nasty Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: If you take away his 50 yards on the jet sweep he had a terrible game! LMFAO what is this right? I've quite literally watched tom brady dink and dunk his way to 300 yd games via swings to the rb's and tiny hitches in the slot.... I don't see anybody pulling this crap argument in talks about him. YAC is part of the game. Edited October 9, 2019 by Stank_Nasty 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, Luka said: If you take away all the good plays he made he had a bad game. That’s just a dumb way to look at it and say. If you take away all of the non-excellent plays it was the best game ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said: right? I've quite literally watched tom brady dink and dunk his way to 300 yd games via swings to the rb's and tiny hitches in the slot.... I don't see anybody pulling this crap argument in talks about him. YAC is part of the game. Agreed it’s stupid to take away plays good or bad but that literally is a play that really requires no skill. But whatever, it counts. And i feel like he has improved in his short to medium passing but there’s so much work to do still. I think he might struggle to ever be consistent week to week. Luckily, we have a great defense and he doesn’t have to carry the team. I saw this stat (from a parody account but I think it’s accurate) and it’s kinda crazy. https://mobile.twitter.com/SexyTroopLover/status/1181783638058381313 Allen has more wins scoring 14 or fewer points than Brees and Rodgers have in their career. Football is the ultimate team game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 18 minutes ago, Luka said: If you take away all the good plays he made he had a bad game. I was agreeing with you, just exaggerating it further. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stank_Nasty Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 18 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Agreed it’s stupid to take away plays good or bad but that literally is a play that really requires no skill. But whatever, it counts. And i feel like he has improved in his short to medium passing but there’s so much work to do still. I think he might struggle to ever be consistent week to week. Luckily, we have a great defense and he doesn’t have to carry the team. I saw this stat (from a parody account but I think it’s accurate) and it’s kinda crazy. https://mobile.twitter.com/SexyTroopLover/status/1181783638058381313 Allen has more wins scoring 14 or fewer points than Brees and Rodgers have in their career. Football is the ultimate team game. i'm encouraged at the improvement of the short and intermediate game. i'm perplexed as to how it seems his deep ball has gone to crap.... cautiously optimistic it all comes together over the next year into the 2020 season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 45 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: If you take away his 50 yards on the jet sweep he had a terrible game! LMFAO what is this 41 minutes ago, Bangarang said: Take away Phillips’ 3 sacks and he didn’t have that good of a game. We might be on to an entirely new way of quantifying success. Or not, depending on you look at it. We can simply remove any play or game to rewrite the entire history of outcomes since the league began. I mean, how convenient is that? For instance, take away our two TDs vs. the Titans and we lose that game 7-0. See how easy that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 2 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said: It wasn't great it was very good. And it was very good based on the circumstances. And those circumstances were: * The Bills, boasting a top 3 defense, were on the road facing a top 10 defense. It was raining on & off and they were playing on a grass field. The TN offense does not turn over the ball. Add all this up and we needed to be careful with the ball as it would likely be a low scoring game. * Allen was very careful with the ball as we had only 1 TO and that INT was not a terrible throw by Allen. * The Bills got into the red zone twice and scored TD's both times. * The Bills were able to run out the last 4 minutes of the game, denying TN a chance to tie the game. * The Bills won the TOP stat which is important in close defensive dominated games. * The Bills won the field position battle as the Offense was able to string a couple of 1st downs together to enable multiple punts inside the 20 yard line. * Allen was sharp on almost every throw he made. He made mostly good decisions and his run at the end of the game sealed the victory for the Bills. Similar to his overcoming the bad pick 6 right before halftime against Miami last year, Allen overcame a concussion and a very bad performance against NE the week before. This demonstrates a critical intangible for bouncing back after bad things happen. An important part of any QB's game. Thanks for the context. I appreciate your recap. Sounds like he did a good job managing the game. That's something I've felt he's needed to do better, so if he was efficient and smart with the ball, that's a plus. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) Watching this thread still discuss the hand positioning on a sweep to McKenzie makes me smile. Had Allen clasped the ball and McKenzie took it from him, instead of Allen just kind of two handed pushing it forward, he would have finished with 169 yards passing. We arent talking about a swing pass with YAC, or a screen with YAC, or a quick hit slant with YAC, where it requires taking the ball and with one hand propelling it. No, we are essentially talking about a handoff. Edited October 9, 2019 by BillsFan17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Agreed it’s stupid to take away plays good or bad but that literally is a play that really requires no skill. But whatever, it counts. And i feel like he has improved in his short to medium passing but there’s so much work to do still. I think he might struggle to ever be consistent week to week. Luckily, we have a great defense and he doesn’t have to carry the team. I saw this stat (from a parody account but I think it’s accurate) and it’s kinda crazy. https://mobile.twitter.com/SexyTroopLover/status/1181783638058381313 Allen has more wins scoring 14 or fewer points than Brees and Rodgers have in their career. Football is the ultimate team game. Why would he struggle to be consistent? He's been consistent for 4/5 games this season. Again, he's shown significant improvement in multiple key areas; there's no reason to believe he can't do so when it comes to turnovers etc 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 42 minutes ago, K-9 said: We might be on to an entirely new way of quantifying success. Or not, depending on you look at it. We can simply remove any play or game to rewrite the entire history of outcomes since the league began. I mean, how convenient is that? For instance, take away our two TDs vs. the Titans and we lose that game 7-0. See how easy that is? It's not that easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said: Watching this thread still discuss the hand positioning on a sweep to McKenzie makes me smile. Had Allen clasped the ball and McKenzie took it from him, instead of Allen just kind of two handed pushing it forward, he would have finished with 169 yards passing. We arent talking about a swing pass with YAC, or a screen with YAC, or a quick hit slant with YAC, where it requires taking the ball and with one hand propelling it. No, we are essentially talking about a handoff. And the point of you bringing it up for a 2nd time is what, exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, thebandit27 said: And the point of you bringing it up for a 2nd time is what, exactly? It's still being discussed, is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 42 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said: i'm encouraged at the improvement of the short and intermediate game. i'm perplexed as to how it seems his deep ball has gone to crap.... cautiously optimistic it all comes together over the next year into the 2020 season. It's been a mixed bag, some wide open shots where Allen has simply had bad mechanics throwing off platform - and I cannot remember a QB who overthrows a 50 yard pass while back pedaling and throwing off his back foot - he really does have an arm that is almost too strong. Then there have been a few that have been spot-on, but Allen has failed to see the safety over top that has taken passes that were on the money and intercepted them ala NE. Most teams play man with at least one safety over top when playing the Bills while bringing extra guys on the rush to force Allen into quick decisions and quicker passes, or force him to pull it down and roll out where he has had the tendency to lock onto a receiver which leads to some telegraphed throws and picks. So the opportunities have been a bit limited. Would like to Daboll crank up the run game consistently enough so that play action can freeze the safety enough to get Brown deep and our pass protection to hold up enough for Allen to step into those throws. I think then we will see some good long balls, but even if Allen just gets the hang of getting those shorter passes out quickly and eats up the clock with long drives while protecting the ball, he puts our defense in a better position to seal the wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 43 minutes ago, K-9 said: We might be on to an entirely new way of quantifying success. Or not, depending on you look at it. We can simply remove any play or game to rewrite the entire history of outcomes since the league began. I mean, how convenient is that? For instance, take away our two TDs vs. the Titans and we lose that game 7-0. See how easy that is? Wish it worked that way with marriage...like, if I remove all the times I pissed off my wife, I'm one of the best husbands on the block! 1 minute ago, BillsFan17 said: It's still being discussed, is it not? Gonna steer clear of giving an honest answer on that then...can't say I blame you at this point 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, thebandit27 said: Wish it worked that way with marriage...like, if I remove all the times I pissed off my wife, I'm one of the best husbands on the block! Gonna steer clear of giving an honest answer on that then...can't say I blame you at this point No, please, I logged back on solely for your honesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, BillsFan17 said: No, please, I logged back on solely for your honesty. Go read that again smarty pants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, thebandit27 said: Go read that again smarty pants Well, I'm not wearing pants, sir! I'm just pointing out that play was more of a handoff than a pass that should be glorified. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: Why would he struggle to be consistent? He's been consistent for 4/5 games this season. Again, he's shown significant improvement in multiple key areas; there's no reason to believe he can't do so when it comes to turnovers etc I just don’t think he has consistent mechanics and it results in poor throws. The Jets game wasn’t just in him but if we didn’t have our defense, it could have Been over at halftime. He also seems to have quarters when he is good 4th quarter Jets, 2nd quarter Giants I believe, and then other quarters when it is hard to watch. Guys like Brady, Brees, Manning, etc are so good because they have consistent mechanics. Allen’s best skills are his arm strength and improvising. But that results in poor throws and decisions (like taking big hits). But i have seen improvement but not enough to say we have a franchise guy yet. Allen, playing with our defense, is in a great situation most young qbs get. It’s like the Mitch T with the bears. He is along for the ride and I think Allen is right now as well. I want the guy is leading us to points in the first half and games are over at halftime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, BillsFan17 said: Well, I'm not wearing pants, sir! I'm just pointing out that play was more of a handoff than a pass that should be glorified. That's all. You lack subtlety in your approach. If you want to keep people talking about it, you have to be more creative and low-key. You're basically shouting from rooftops Just now, C.Biscuit97 said: I just don’t think he has consistent mechanics and it results in poor throws. The Jets game wasn’t just in him but if we didn’t have our defense, it could have Been over at halftime. He also seems to have quarters when he is good 4th quarter Jets, 2nd quarter Giants I believe, and then other quarters when it is hard to watch. Guys like Brady, Brees, Manning, etc are so good because they have consistent mechanics. Allen’s best skills are his arm strength and improvising. But that results in poor throws and decisions (like taking big hits). But i have seen improvement but not enough to say we have a franchise guy yet. Allen, playing with our defense, is in a great situation most young qbs get. It’s like the Mitch T with the bears. He is along for the ride and I think Allen is right now as well. I want the guy is leading us to points in the first half and games are over at halftime. I haven't seen any inconsistencies related to poor mechanics this year. Like, at all. His problem this year has been almost exclusively two-fold: making ill-advises throws into coverage and breaking the pocket too soon (though he's clearly better than last year with regard to the latter). And I don't think anyone this side of @K-9 has proclaimed Josh a franchise QB at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: You lack subtlety in your approach. If you want to keep people talking about it, you have to be more creative and low-key. You're basically shouting from rooftops I haven't seen any inconsistencies related to poor mechanics this year. Like, at all. His problem this year has been almost exclusively two-fold: making ill-advises throws into coverage and breaking the pocket too soon (though he's clearly better than last year with regard to the latter). And I don't think anyone this side of @K-9 has proclaimed Josh a franchise QB at this point. I logged back on, and saw that people will still making posts in regards to my point about that play. Therefore, subtle or not, its still being discussed. All I wanted to do was see why its still a bone of contention that a play that was essentially a handoff is such a bugaboo around here. Moreover, the first lesson on message board credibility, followed up by how to keep talking points alive... blessed! Edited October 9, 2019 by BillsFan17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 hour ago, GoBills808 said: If you take away his 50 yards on the jet sweep he had a terrible game! LMFAO what is this Analytics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said: I logged back on, and saw that people will still making posts in regards to my point about that play. Therefore, subtle or not, its still being discussed. All I wanted to do was see why its still a bone of contention that a play that was essentially a handoff is such a bugaboo around here. Moreover, the first lesson on message board credibility, followed up by how to keep talking points alive... blessed! It's not the play that's drawing so much discussion; it's the sheer lunacy of the analytical method that people are still entertained by. But if it makes you feel any better, your middle paragraph here is a much more subtle approach. Your attempt at snark, on the other hand, could use work. Guess that'd be lesson 3 ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 13 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: You lack subtlety in your approach. If you want to keep people talking about it, you have to be more creative and low-key. You're basically shouting from rooftops I haven't seen any inconsistencies related to poor mechanics this year. Like, at all. His problem this year has been almost exclusively two-fold: making ill-advises throws into coverage and breaking the pocket too soon (though he's clearly better than last year with regard to the latter). And I don't think anyone this side of @K-9 has proclaimed Josh a franchise QB at this point. I have not proclaimed him to be a franchise QB. I’ve proclaimed him to be a first ballot HOFer. There’s a difference at this point in time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, thebandit27 said: It's not the play that's drawing so much discussion; it's the sheer lunacy of the analytical method that people are still entertained by. But if it makes you feel any better, your middle paragraph here is a much more subtle approach. Your attempt at snark, on the other hand, could use work. Guess that'd be lesson 3 ? That's a hat trick of education, that frankly you arent going to get anywhere else other than TBD. It's a glorified handoff, that due to semantics counted as a "pass." That being said, you admit that it was still being discussed without me at all. So, not sure why you think I'm rehashing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 26 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said: It's not that easy Nope. It IS that easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, K-9 said: Nope. It IS that easy. If it was, everyone would do it. Looks like I have been the only one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, BillsFan17 said: If it was, everyone would do it. Looks like I have been the only one. Ah, I see you’re confused.. I’ll just say that “easy” doesn’t preclude intellectual dishonesty. But if Allen didn’t pass for those two TDS, he would have had more INTs than TD passes vs. the Titans. See? Easy peasey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, K-9 said: Ah, I see you’re confused.. I’ll just say that “easy” doesn’t preclude intellectual dishonesty. But if Allen didn’t pass for those two TDS, he would have had more INTs than TD passes vs. the Titans. See? Easy peasey. Yeah, but those passes actually required him to make a passing motion, the play I'm discussing is a glorified handoff, that due to semantics is listed as a pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 38 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Sounds like he did a good job managing the game. That's something I've felt he's needed to do better, so if he was efficient and smart with the ball, that's a plus. It was the polar opposite of the Patriots game. He took what the defense gave him and I don't think a defender ever got a hand on the ball, the only exception being the interception. I'm pretty sure he had zero deep throws all game long. Eventually he will need to hit on a couple of those to keep defenses honest, I agree that his deep accuracy and timing is a concern at this point. It was a pretty weird game for the offense honestly. We didn't score a lot but Allen wasn't really to blame. Replays showed a lot of plays where no one was open and we didn't have any kind of run game until the final drive. There were a few poorly tined drops and penalties that stopped good looking drives in their tracks. It looked to me like Daboll dumbed the down a bit but I can't blame him after Allen's performance against the Pats. In fact I think if Allen played against the Pats the way he played against the Titans we would be 5-0 right now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, BillsFan17 said: Yeah, but those passes actually required him to make a passing motion, the play I'm discussing is a glorified handoff, that due to semantics is listed as a pass. Has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with the NFL rulebook. But you can rest easy knowing that if a forward pass wasn’t defined in the NFL rulebook as such, then you could revel in calling it a handoff all you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syhuang Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 First, a fly sweep sometimes can go wrong as the above video. Second, a mishandling is only regarded as an incomplete pass, not fumble. So it's better to not handle off the ball in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, K-9 said: Has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with the NFL rulebook. But you can rest easy knowing that if a forward pass wasn’t defined in the NFL rulebook as such, then you could revel in calling it a handoff all you want. Gotta get my hands on the rulebook. Again, it's a glorified handoff. Like baldy said, should count as a fumble if it isn't handled properly too boot. Edited October 9, 2019 by BillsFan17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, HappyDays said: It was the polar opposite of the Patriots game. He took what the defense gave him and I don't think a defender ever got a hand on the ball, the only exception being the interception. I'm pretty sure he had zero deep throws all game long. Eventually he will need to hit on a couple of those to keep defenses honest, I agree that his deep accuracy and timing is a concern at this point. It was a pretty weird game for the offense honestly. We didn't score a lot but Allen wasn't really to blame. Replays showed a lot of plays where no one was open and we didn't have any kind of run game until the final drive. There were a few poorly tined drops and penalties that stopped good looking drives in their tracks. It looked to me like Daboll dumbed the down a bit but I can't blame him after Allen's performance against the Pats. In fact I think if Allen played against the Pats the way he played against the Titans we would be 5-0 right now. Agreed with pretty much all of that. I'll also say that, regardless of how he played in the first 3 quarters, Josh wins that NE game if he doesn't get hurt. The offense is, I believe, 100% successful in TD conversions in the red zone with him at QB; no way he doesn't get in the EZ on the drive during which he got concussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, BillsFan17 said: Gotta get my hands on the rulebook. Why? It’s so much easier to just reject them and define a forward pass on your own terms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, K-9 said: Why? It’s so much easier to just reject them and define a forward pass on your own terms. Which do you want me to adhere to? What will make you feel satisfied? I also, would like your stance on every rule in said book. I know you have the time. Edited October 9, 2019 by BillsFan17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, BillsFan17 said: Which do you want me to adhere to? What will make you feel satisfied? I should think that’s rather obvious. Then again, I don’t have any desire to shoehorn alternate realities into preconceived narratives. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, K-9 said: I should think that’s rather obvious. Then again, I don’t have any desire to shoehorn alternate realities into preconceived narratives. I feel like you have one of those word of the day calendars, and you are surely getting your money's worth. Now, back to that pesky rule book. Let's get that run down on your sentiments on absolutely every single rule in that book. Again, I know you have the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said: I feel like you have one of those word of the day calendars, and you are surely getting your money's worth. Now, back to that pesky rule book. Let's get that run down on your sentiments on absolutely every single rule in that book. Again, I know you have the time. My sentiments on every single rule in the NFL rule book? Sure, no problem. My sentiment is the same for every single one of them; that is I accept them all as written until they are changed and re-written. See? That took no time at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 https://www.tigernet.com/story/Clemsons-jet-sweep-The-run-that-is-a-pass-14822 Hey, I'm not the only one who thinks it's a glorified running play 2 minutes ago, K-9 said: My sentiments on every single rule in the NFL rule book? Sure, no problem. My sentiment is the same for every single one of them; that is I accept them all as written until they are changed and re-written. See? That took no time at all. Every single one of em? That's pathetic, have a backbone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, BillsFan17 said: https://www.tigernet.com/story/Clemsons-jet-sweep-The-run-that-is-a-pass-14822 Hey, I'm not the only one who thinks it's a glorified running play Good for you. But alas, it’s still a forward pass as defined by the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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