Bills Training Camp Day 11 (last practice at SJF for 2019) 8/6

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

From what I gather Allen hasn't been "that" stellar in that he has missed some passes, thrown some behind the receivers... Meanwhile, Matt Barkley has looked razor sharp in comparison.

 

Allen is a work in progress as an NFL QB and it shows. Don't expect him to throw 50 TDs like Mahomes. If I read things right my take is McD wants to build a ground and pound offense that will allow Allen to pick his passes which will allow him to continue to develop properly.

 

 

 

 

When I watched Allen/Barkley closely thru each drill at the Friday practice at the stadium my thought was "oh sh*t.........if Allen gets a minor injury and misses a game Barkley could end up starting the rest of the season".............he was just sharper at what Daboll and Dorsey were asking them to do.    God forbid we go from a potential franchise QB back to another journeyman but it would not surprise me.  

 

Now when the bullets start flying Barkley doesn't have the physical skills to do as many things as Allen so hopefully Allen can separate himself there.........but my concern with trying to shoe-horn Allen into a Patriots-style offense is that he seems a poor fit for that.   

 

Maybe Daboll understands that and won't force Allen into a dink and dunk offense..........I'd like to think that..........but Daboll has a truly lousy track record as an OC in the NFL.    Years removed from those gigs and after working with Belichick we are assuming he's good now.   Even I am.  But the reality is we haven't seen him guide a good NFL offense yet.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, teef said:

there's a lot of tom sweeney chatter going on around here.

 

 

The Bills NEED to find their George Kittle steal at TE.   Tight end is without doubt the position that the Bills have most poorly evaluated in the past 60 years(which is saying something with the state of the QB position for much of that).   You'd think in that time they would accident upon a true stud TE.........but you miss every shot you don't take and I think the difficulty of evaluating and projecting TE's has made the Bills pass on taking swings they should have.    They've traditionally taken a few too many easy-e v a l positions in mid-late rounds, IMO.  

[Nihilarian]

15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Maybe Daboll understands that and won't force Allen into a dink and dunk offense..........I'd like to think that..........but Daboll has a truly lousy track record as an OC in the NFL.    Years removed from those gigs and after working with Belichick we are assuming he's good now.   Even I am.  But the reality is we haven't seen him guide a good NFL offense yet.

Daboll is not good in my view and may ultimately be the downfall of this years offense.  

 

Look at last season to see that the Buffalo Bills threw more deep passes than any other NFL team...and that with one of the very worst offensive lines in the league. While I get that the RB run game wasn't working most of the time for the Bills last season and the offense needed to throw. Still, why call for so many deep passes when the line wasn't able to properly protect the QB?

 

Perhaps the reason as to why the Bills have McCoy, Gore, Singletary, Yeldon, along with Murphy, Perry, Wade at RB. I think McD wants that ground and pound like the Panthers were back in the day with Stewart and Williams at RB to take pressure off Allen by running it more. At least I hope they run more and pass less.

 

I go back to 2008 Baltimore Ravens with rookie QB Joe Flacco and how Cam Cameron developed him with the run game, by 433 passes attempted, 592 runs attempted. They made the playoffs that season.

 I'll never forget the 2009 Ravens WC game IN New England and pounding the Patriots into a 33-14 loss. Flacco went 4 of 10 for 34 yards, 1 INT all game with a QB rating of 10.0. Meanwhile, Rice and McGahee had 54 rushes for 234 yards and 4 TDs. That Ravens defense held Brady to 23 of 42 for 154 yards, 2 TDs, 3 INTs, a 49.1 rate. 

 

 

Anyway, Looking at that Jets game last season that Barkley started I'm not as worried if he needs to start a game or so. 

 

39 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The Bills NEED to find their George Kittle steal at TE.   

I get the impression that the Bills might have found that TE in Dawson Knox. It stinks he has been sidelined with a hamstring injury. Tommy Sweeney doesn't look to have the skill set that Knox does and yet he is making the most of the chance he has been give with all the injuries to all the other TEs. 

 

 

 

 

[njbuff]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The Bills NEED to find their George Kittle steal at TE.   Tight end is without doubt the position that the Bills have most poorly evaluated in the past 60 years(which is saying something with the state of the QB position for much of that).   You'd think in that time they would accident upon a true stud TE.........but you miss every shot you don't take and I think the difficulty of evaluating and projecting TE's has made the Bills pass on taking swings they should have.    They've traditionally taken a few too many easy-e v a l positions in mid-late rounds, IMO.  

 

They did find Jay Riemersma in the 7th round of the 96 draft.

 

He was a quality TE for this organization, but didn't last too long.

 

He was a favorite of Doug Flutie, but Bledsoe was allergic to him when Bledsoe first came to the Bills.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, njbuff said:

 

They did find Jay Riemersma in the 7th round of the 96 draft.

 

He was a quality TE for this organization, but didn't last too long.

 

He was a favorite of Doug Flutie, but Bledsoe was allergic to him when Bledsoe first came to the Bills.

 

 

I know it seems like that because the team was good in the late 90's but it's just a misty water colored memory.  Riemersma was just a 35 catch kinda' TE and could not block well.     One season he had 11 drops and when asked about his crazy catch/drop ratio he said he "could remember"  having 2-3 drops.   He was OK but only for the Bills would he be memorable 15-20 years later.

 

George Kittle had 88 grabs for 1377 yards for the Niners last year.   That's what I mean about getting a "stud" TE.   That kind of production actually can happen.   

[Stank_Nasty]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I know it seems like that because the team was good in the late 90's but it's just a misty water colored memory.  Riemersma was just a 35 catch kinda' TE and could not block well.     One season he had 11 drops and when asked about his crazy catch/drop ratio he said he "could remember"  having 2-3 drops.   He was OK but only for the Bills would he be memorable 15-20 years later.

 

George Kittle had 88 grabs for 1377 yards for the Niners last year.   That's what I mean about getting a "stud" TE.   That kind of production actually can happen.   

That kind of production has happened exactly ONCE in the history of the NFL as kittle set the yardage record last season.... 700-900 yds while being a big redzone presence would be a real nice addition though. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Stank_Nasty said:

That kind of production has happened exactly ONCE in the history of the NFL as kittle set the yardage record last season.... 700-900 yds while being a big redzone presence would be a real nice addition though. 

 

Nice?   That's an understatement.........just 700 would be by the greatest receiving yardage season by a Bills TE ever!

 

Pretty sure Scott Chandler's 655 yard season is the franchise high water mark(less than half of Kittle's 1388).

 

Pete Metzelaars 605 is the only other season a Bills TE even reached 600 yards receiving.  

 

 

 

 

[Bill from NYC]

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I know it seems like that because the team was good in the late 90's but it's just a misty water colored memory.  Riemersma was just a 35 catch kinda' TE and could not block well.     One season he had 11 drops and when asked about his crazy catch/drop ratio he said he "could remember"  having 2-3 drops.   He was OK but only for the Bills would he be memorable 15-20 years later.

 

  

So true. Riemersma was often referred to as one who had "good hands." I suppose this was because he would make a very good catch now and then but in reality he had bad hands and dropped easy catches on a regular basis.

[dave mcbride]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Nice?   That's an understatement.........just 700 would be by the greatest receiving yardage season by a Bills TE ever!

 

Pretty sure Scott Chandler's 655 yard season is the franchise high water mark(less than half of Kittle's 1388).

 

Pete Metzelaars 605 is the only other season a Bills TE even reached 600 yards receiving.  

 

 

 

 

Absolutely right. I strongly recall listening to many a Bills game on the radio in the 1970s where Van Miller's most memorable line (to me at least!) was "Ferguson ... back to pass ... throws to Gant ... and it is ... dropped."

 

McKeller was actually genuinely talented and by far and away the best TE in team history, but simply couldn't stay on the field. He's the only mid-to-late round flyer they've had success with. Metzelaars, who was just OK (slow as molasses) but a pretty good blocker, was a 3rd round pick by Seattle.

[eball]

17 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

When I watched Allen/Barkley closely thru each drill at the Friday practice at the stadium my thought was "oh sh*t.........if Allen gets a minor injury and misses a game Barkley could end up starting the rest of the season".............he was just sharper at what Daboll and Dorsey were asking them to do.    God forbid we go from a potential franchise QB back to another journeyman but it would not surprise me.  

 

Now when the bullets start flying Barkley doesn't have the physical skills to do as many things as Allen so hopefully Allen can separate himself there.........but my concern with trying to shoe-horn Allen into a Patriots-style offense is that he seems a poor fit for that.   

 

Maybe Daboll understands that and won't force Allen into a dink and dunk offense..........I'd like to think that..........but Daboll has a truly lousy track record as an OC in the NFL.    Years removed from those gigs and after working with Belichick we are assuming he's good now.   Even I am.  But the reality is we haven't seen him guide a good NFL offense yet.

 

I don't think anyone should be surprised that Barkley is more adept than Josh at the short passing game at this point in their respective careers...that IS Barkley's game and he's been doing it for years.

 

I think Josh can get better at the short throws but I have also heard Josh say on numerous occasions that he loves working with 'Dabes' because (and I'm paraphrasing) "he puts in throws I like and takes out throws I don't like."  This tells me Daboll is not trying to jam a square peg into a round hole, which is reassuring.

 

And with that said, I hope Josh doesn't get hurt but if he does, Barkley is sound enough to manage the offense and be supported by what we hope is a stifling defense.

[BillsVet]

18 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The Bills NEED to find their George Kittle steal at TE.   Tight end is without doubt the position that the Bills have most poorly evaluated in the past 60 years(which is saying something with the state of the QB position for much of that).   You'd think in that time they would accident upon a true stud TE.........but you miss every shot you don't take and I think the difficulty of evaluating and projecting TE's has made the Bills pass on taking swings they should have.    They've traditionally taken a few too many easy-e v a l positions in mid-late rounds, IMO.  

 

Have never understood why McBeane equally prioritize receiving and blocking skills.  That mindset eliminates prospects who may offer something in the receiving game and can improve on blocking technique.

 

To that point, Knox sounds like he is an adept blocker, but struggles with injuries and of course that occurred in TC.  

 

At this point, I'd say the best TE in franchise history was Ernie Warlick and we're going back 50+ years.  Not surprisingly, they didn't take a TE in the 3rd or higher since 2006 until this year as several teams valued finding a top receiver type.

[BADOLBILZ]

54 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Have never understood why McBeane equally prioritize receiving and blocking skills.  That mindset eliminates prospects who may offer something in the receiving game and can improve on blocking technique.

 

To that point, Knox sounds like he is an adept blocker, but struggles with injuries and of course that occurred in TC.  

 

At this point, I'd say the best TE in franchise history was Ernie Warlick and we're going back 50+ years.  Not surprisingly, they didn't take a TE in the 3rd or higher since 2006 until this year as several teams valued finding a top receiver type.

 

 

Probably could be summed up as simply as "defensive head coach".

 

He doesn't like that monicker but that's what McD is first and foremost.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, eball said:

 

I don't think anyone should be surprised that Barkley is more adept than Josh at the short passing game at this point in their respective careers...that IS Barkley's game and he's been doing it for years.

 

I think Josh can get better at the short throws but I have also heard Josh say on numerous occasions that he loves working with 'Dabes' because (and I'm paraphrasing) "he puts in throws I like and takes out throws I don't like."  This tells me Daboll is not trying to jam a square peg into a round hole, which is reassuring.

 

And with that said, I hope Josh doesn't get hurt but if he does, Barkley is sound enough to manage the offense and be supported by what we hope is a stifling defense.

 

We've heard re-assuring talk prior to bad situations many times before.    Turk Schonert and Trent Edwards once had most Bills fans convinced they could run a no huddle offense one offseason..........Turk didn't even make it to the opener.   That's just an extreme example but there have been a few the last 20 years.

 

My concern is that the actual personnel and design won't fit Allen well and he ends up turning the ball over some without getting the big plays and the Bills lose games.   Barkley steps in due to injury and starts Jauron balling and they win a couple games and then McBeane and Daboll try to salvage their season to minimize the impact of decisions not beneficial to the young franchise QB.   I'm more sold on Allen.........I think the right people could make him successful now so that IN TIME he can become the guy who makes everyone better...........McBeane and staff just haven't shown me enough to trust them.

Edited August 8, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

We've heard re-assuring talk prior to bad situations many times before.    Turk Schonert and Trent Edwards once had most Bills fans convinced they could run a no huddle offense one offseason..........Turk didn't even make it to the opener.   That's just an extreme example but there have been a few the last 20 years.

 

My concern is that the actual personnel and design won't fit Allen well and he ends up turning the ball over some without getting the big plays and the Bills lose games.   Barkley steps in due to injury and starts Jauron balling and they win a couple games and then McBeane and Daboll try to salvage their season to minimize the impact of decisions not beneficial to the young franchise QB.   I'm more sold on Allen.........I think the right people could make him successful now so that IN TIME he can become the guy who makes everyone better...........McBeane and staff just haven't shown me enough to trust them.

 

I think that's an unlikely scenario because McDermott and Beane would ostensibly be admitting that they got the Allen pick wrong, which is probably a death sentence for them in Buffalo.

 

Plus, they've been very careful to give the appearance that they're building for the long-term; with the 2020 WR class (both in FA and the draft) coming up, now would be a really bad time to bail on surrounding Allen with a very high level of pass-catching talent.

[eball]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

We've heard re-assuring talk prior to bad situations many times before.    Turk Schonert and Trent Edwards once had most Bills fans convinced they could run a no huddle offense one offseason..........Turk didn't even make it to the opener.   That's just an extreme example but there have been a few the last 20 years.

 

My concern is that the actual personnel and design won't fit Allen well and he ends up turning the ball over some without getting the big plays and the Bills lose games.   Barkley steps in due to injury and starts Jauron balling and they win a couple games and then McBeane and Daboll try to salvage their season to minimize the impact of decisions not beneficial to the young franchise QB.   I'm more sold on Allen.........I think the right people could make him successful now so that IN TIME he can become the guy who makes everyone better...........McBeane and staff just haven't shown me enough to trust them.

 

I'm not basing my presumptions upon anything former players and coaches said...I believe Daboll is not trying to get Josh to become something he isn't.  We'll find out soon enough.

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Probably could be summed up as simply as "defensive head coach".

 

He doesn't like that monicker but that's what McD is first and foremost.

 

And yet, some fans think this spending spree and a big armed young QB somehow will lead to a high-flying aerial offense.  I'll believe it when I see it. 

 

I thought it was noteworthy that McD came out at the combine after weeks of radio silence and talked about needing to score at least 21 points per.  No doubt he understood he's criticized for being a defensive based HC and wanted to pre-emptively blunt any talk of what he really is.  

 

I predict McCoach will fall back on what he's comfortable with, the offense will be run based and feature 20-25 mostly safe throws with a reliance on the defense to keep teams to ~20 points per.   Not a whole lot different than his predecessors.

Edited August 8, 2019 by BillsVet

[Doc]

38 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

And yet, some fans think this spending spree and a big armed young QB somehow will lead to a high-flying aerial offense.  I'll believe it when I see it. 

 

I thought it was noteworthy that McD came out at the combine after weeks of radio silence and talked about needing to score at least 21 points per.  No doubt he understood he's criticized for being a defensive based HC and wanted to pre-emptively blunt any talk of what he really is.  

 

I predict McCoach will fall back on what he's comfortable with, the offense will be run based and feature 20-25 mostly safe throws with a reliance on the defense to keep teams to ~20 points per.   Not a whole lot different than his predecessors.

 

As long as they win, I don't care how they do it.

[eball]

43 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

some fans think this spending spree and a big armed young QB somehow will lead to a high-flying aerial offense. 

 

They do?  I haven't seen that on this board.  I think most fans are hoping the additions on offense and a year of experience for Josh will lead to a balanced, at-least-average offense.

 

I'm really surprised people think McD wants to run a 3-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust offense.  Yes, he's a defensive-minded HC, but that also means he knows what kind of offenses are successful.

 

McD is significantly underestimated and undervalued by many on this board.

[BillsVet]

12 minutes ago, eball said:

They do?  I haven't seen that on this board.  I think most fans are hoping the additions on offense and a year of experience for Josh will lead to a balanced, at-least-average offense.

 

I'm really surprised people think McD wants to run a 3-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust offense.  Yes, he's a defensive-minded HC, but that also means he knows what kind of offenses are successful.

 

McD is significantly underestimated and undervalued by many on this board.

 

Buffalo didn't shell out big dollars on Morse, Brown, and Beasley to go along with Spain, Feliciano, and Long on shorter deals to have a "balanced" offense.  Expectations for this team are once again all about making the playoffs and this lowering of the standard is a means of hedging bets in the event the season unravels into mediocrity or worse.  They didn't do a complete tear down of the roster over 3 seasons to be middling.    

 

Once again, I'm going to point to objective evidence in my critique of McCoach.  He's 15-17 career and has had a huge influence, perhaps more than any other Bills HC, on the roster.  Yet, his offensive decision making is extremely suspect, highlighted by who they've played at QB, the devaluing of offense in years 1 and 2 to pursue defense, and the results bear this out.

 

Bottom line is, McD is underestimated because he's 15-17 and was blown out 6 times last season (at BAL, SD, at GB, at IND, NE, CHI) against two decisive wins (at MIN, at NYJ).  You'll notice that 3 of those losses were home and none of their big wins were.  Now you're telling us that because McD is defensive minded that somehow equates to knowing offense?  Based on what?  It sure looks like anything but the opposite.    Still, this is based on evidence, not what one wants to think.  Frankly, I don't understand how people can know so much that isn't so.   

[BobbyC81]

On 8/6/2019 at 9:05 AM, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

 

 

Won’t he be surprised if he’s traded right before the regular  season.