Gugny Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Just now, C.Biscuit97 said: In his one start as a rookie, Mahomes had more passing yards than Allen in any of his starts this year. Mahomes is special. He certainly seems to be special. It is not, however, insignificant that he is on a much better team with much better coaching and much better players. All things equal, of course he's better than Josh Allen so far. But all things are very, very far from equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 27 minutes ago, eball said: Dennison was a bad hire. McD corrected his mistake after 2017. With respect to Daboll -- how can anyone possibly evaluate him after last season, good or bad? He had to start the season with Peterman at QB. His OL was crappy all season. Benjamin was a joke. He then had a raw rookie QB. If anything he deserves a pass for last year. And while we're talking about 2017 -- did you not see marked improvement in the offense over the 2nd half of the season? Does Daboll receive no credit for that? Regardless if you agree with me, I try not to make snap judgments. So I’m not just hating on Daboll because of a year. It’s more that his nfl as a OC is terrible. He basically has been a bottom 5 OC his whole career. I thought it was a bad hire when it was made. Bama and Hurt were better under Kiffin. Everyone tried to blame all the offensive problems on Tyrod and Dennison. Well, we got worse without them. If Daboll leads this offense to average status, which he has never done, I will gladly sing his praises. But for some reason, he avoids a lot of criticism. Just now, Gugny said: He certainly seems to be special. It is not, however, insignificant that he is on a much better team with much better coaching and much better players. All things equal, of course he's better than Josh Allen so far. But all things are very, very far from equal. I’d argue a big part of that is because he got selected by one of the best offensive coaches of his generation. I’d feel better about Allen if we had more successful offensive people making the pick. I don’t trust McBeane at this point on offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 18 minutes ago, SoTier said: I was responding to this quote from K-9: "If you really, honestly think Mahomes would have won the SB or pitched 50 TD passes with a stable of Deonte Thompson, Zay Jones, Charles Clay, and Shady with Rick Dennison as the architect, what can I say?" This is essentially the pardigm on Mahomes vs Allen on TSW: passing on Mahomes was okay because he would have been mediocre on the Bills because of the team around him, but Allen will flourish now that he's got some modest talent around him. My point is that if a special player like Mahomes would have struggled because the Bills wouldn't have put a good team around him, including coaching, how can we (posters on TSW) realistically expect Allen to flourish with the modest talent currently on the Bills team when he's so much more raw than Mahomes was as a rookie, and so needs so much more support? It may be for some, but certainly not for me, so don’t include me in that group. My post addresses ONE silly aspect in the Mahomes discussion: that ANY projection of how he would have done in Buffalo is complete fiction; a totally unprovable fantasy assumption. And that discussion runs the entire spectrum, from Mahomes sucking to Mahomes being the same thing he is in KC. It can be fun to speculate, but when people use their fantasy speculations to support unprovable claims, it becomes ridiculous. As we’ve seen here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaw66 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 15 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Whereas I think the offense was exactly what it should have been with a poor Quarterback, half an offensive line and a rotating cast of below average receivers. Fair enough. Our difference is that I am convinced that the game is more about coaching than talent. I think the Bills had more than enough talent on offense to be better than they were, and it was the coach's job to implement a scheme where ordinary NFL talent can fill in and succeed in a scheme playing beside good players. In other words, I think the coach's job is to get more of the talent than the sum of the parts. Any decent coach can get the sum; more than the sum is the added value that coaches bring. I don't think Dennison brought any added value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I’d argue a big part of that is because he got selected by one of the best offensive coaches of his generation. I’d feel better about Allen if we had more successful offensive people making the pick. I don’t trust McBeane at this point on offense. I'm cautiously optimistic about Daboll. Allen had nearly zero talent helping him on the field last year. I am also cautiously optimistic about that changing this year with the 624 WRs and TEs vying for roster spots. But I truly believe that Mahomes walked into just about the best case scenario for any young QB to walk into. I'm interested to see how his sophomore (as a starter) season goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 1 minute ago, Gugny said: I'm cautiously optimistic about Daboll. Allen had nearly zero talent helping him on the field last year. I am also cautiously optimistic about that changing this year with the 624 WRs and TEs vying for roster spots. But I truly believe that Mahomes walked into just about the best case scenario for any young QB to walk into. I'm interested to see how his sophomore (as a starter) season goes. But isn’t that part of it though? We didn’t have to have a bad situation for Allen. We didn’t have to start the season with no veteran qb on the roster. We didn’t have to trade up for Zay instead of just taking JuJu. A lot of the problems on offense were self inflicted. I know Sammy is a sore subject here but KC paid him a lot of money to be a 3 td option. Think about that. We just bargain basement shop for receivers. And based on his resume, I don’t know why everyone is so sold on Daboll. But I do hope you’re right even if I’m very skeptical. 4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Fair enough. Our difference is that I am convinced that the game is more about coaching than talent. I think the Bills had more than enough talent on offense to be better than they were, and it was the coach's job to implement a scheme where ordinary NFL talent can fill in and succeed in a scheme playing beside good players. In other words, I think the coach's job is to get more of the talent than the sum of the parts. Any decent coach can get the sum; more than the sum is the added value that coaches bring. I don't think Dennison brought any added value. Why do think Daboll is better? Because nothing in his nfl resume indicates that he is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 26 minutes ago, SoTier said: I was responding to this quote from K-9: "If you really, honestly think Mahomes would have won the SB or pitched 50 TD passes with a stable of Deonte Thompson, Zay Jones, Charles Clay, and Shady with Rick Dennison as the architect, what can I say?" This is essentially the pardigm on Mahomes vs Allen on TSW: passing on Mahomes was okay because he would have been mediocre on the Bills because of the team around him, but Allen will flourish now that he's got some modest talent around him. My point is that if a special player like Mahomes would have struggled because the Bills wouldn't have put a good team around him, including coaching, how can we (posters on TSW) realistically expect Allen to flourish with the modest talent currently on the Bills team when he's so much more raw than Mahomes was as a rookie, and so needs so much more support? I see your point here. I think Mahomes is very good, better than the vast majority thought he'd be. It does help to have talent around him. Allen had a decent rookie season, and they have addressed the O line and brought some new receivers in to help support him. At the same time Mahomes has lost a couple guys that were integral the the Chiefs offense. Should be an interesting season for both. I expect Mahomes may fall off a bit, and Allen should improve somewhat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Just now, C.Biscuit97 said: But isn’t that part of it though? We didn’t have to have a bad situation for Allen. We didn’t have to start the season with no veteran qb on the roster. We didn’t have to trade up for Zay instead of just taking JuJu. A lot of the problems on offense were self inflicted. I know Sammy is a sore subject here but KC paid him a lot of money to be a 3 td option. Think about that. We just bargain basement shop for receivers. And based on his resume, I don’t know why everyone is so sold on Daboll. But I do hope you’re right even if I’m very skeptical. Oh, I am far from sold. I hated him for a lot of the season last year. But he did show that he's willing to adjust, which gives me some guarded optimism. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Just now, oldmanfan said: I see your point here. I think Mahomes is very good, better than the vast majority thought he'd be. It does help to have talent around him. Allen had a decent rookie season, and they have addressed the O line and brought some new receivers in to help support him. At the same time Mahomes has lost a couple guys that were integral the the Chiefs offense. Should be an interesting season for both. I expect Mahomes may fall off a bit, and Allen should improve somewhat. I mean saying a guy falls off from 5,000 yards and 50 tds isn’t exactly going out on a limb haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 7 minutes ago, K-9 said: It may be for some, but certainly not for me, so don’t include me in that group. My post addresses ONE silly aspect in the Mahomes discussion: that ANY projection of how he would have done in Buffalo is complete fiction; a totally unprovable fantasy assumption. And that discussion runs the entire spectrum, from Mahomes sucking to Mahomes being the same thing he is in KC. It can be fun to speculate, but when people use their fantasy speculations to support unprovable claims, it becomes ridiculous. As we’ve seen here. Ridiculous. No one has said Mahomes would have thrown for 50 TDs in Buffalo, or been the league MVP. What is certain, and is not subject to speculation, is that if Mahomes was in Buffalo, he would be one of the very best young QBs in the league. Anyone who says otherwise is the one engaging in a "totally unprovable fantasy assumption." 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Regardless if you agree with me, I try not to make snap judgments. So I’m not just hating on Daboll because of a year. It’s more that his nfl as a OC is terrible. He basically has been a bottom 5 OC his whole career. I thought it was a bad hire when it was made. Bama and Hurt were better under Kiffin. Everyone tried to blame all the offensive problems on Tyrod and Dennison. Well, we got worse without them. If Daboll leads this offense to average status, which he has never done, I will gladly sing his praises. But for some reason, he avoids a lot of criticism. Whether you're seeing it or not, the Bills' offense made considerable strides forward as the season progressed. Daboll deserves credit for that, working with a rookie QB and terrible OL. There is literally no comparison between the 1st and 2nd half of last season on that side of the ball. I tend to not get bogged down in what coaches did early in their careers unless there is some blatantly obvious pattern. Daboll is still a relatively young guy and has gotten a lot of experience around super head coaches (BB, Saban). I was encouraged by his willingness to adapt last season, and it looks like he seriously considers what his QB and players do well (and enjoy) in crafting strategy for games. I guess the difference between you and me is that I'm excited and looking forward to what Daboll can do with the new tools he has been given, while you're just holding your breath waiting for (and expecting) failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Just now, mannc said: Ridiculous. No one has said Mahomes would have thrown for 50 TDs in Buffalo, or been the league MVP. What is certain, and is not subject to speculation, is that if Mahomes was in Buffalo, he would be one of the very best young QBs in the league. Anyone who says otherwise is the one engaging in a "totally unprovable fantasy assumption." Yup. I simply think Mahomes and Watson are just better qbs than Allen. I don’t think Allen would have done what Mahomes did in KC. He’s just not that type of passer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Fair enough. Our difference is that I am convinced that the game is more about coaching than talent. I think the Bills had more than enough talent on offense to be better than they were, and it was the coach's job to implement a scheme where ordinary NFL talent can fill in and succeed in a scheme playing beside good players. In other words, I think the coach's job is to get more of the talent than the sum of the parts. Any decent coach can get the sum; more than the sum is the added value that coaches bring. I don't think Dennison brought any added value. I agree I don't think he did bring any added value. But he also didn' t make the offense worse..... and there are coordinators who do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I see your point here. I think Mahomes is very good, better than the vast majority thought he'd be. It does help to have talent around him. Allen had a decent rookie season, and they have addressed the O line and brought some new receivers in to help support him. At the same time Mahomes has lost a couple guys that were integral the the Chiefs offense. Should be an interesting season for both. I expect Mahomes may fall off a bit, and Allen should improve somewhat. 2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I mean saying a guy falls off from 5,000 yards and 50 tds isn’t exactly going out on a limb haha. As far as any Allen comparisons go, what I want most is that he has a better season than Darnold and Rosen; and is as good/better than Mayfield. That'll make me happy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Yup. I simply think Mahomes and Watson are just better qbs than Allen. I don’t think Allen would have done what Mahomes did in KC. He’s just not that type of passer. I wasn't comparing Allen to either Mahomes or Watson (I don't think that's fair at this point), but it's inarguable that as of right now, both these guys look like locks to become franchise QBs, and Allen is largely a question mark. Edited June 24, 2019 by mannc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, eball said: Whether you're seeing it or not, the Bills' offense made considerable strides forward as the season progressed. Daboll deserves credit for that, working with a rookie QB and terrible OL. There is literally no comparison between the 1st and 2nd half of last season on that side of the ball. I tend to not get bogged down in what coaches did early in their careers unless there is some blatantly obvious pattern. Daboll is still a relatively young guy and has gotten a lot of experience around super head coaches (BB, Saban). I was encouraged by his willingness to adapt last season, and it looks like he seriously considers what his QB and players do well (and enjoy) in crafting strategy for games. I guess the difference between you and me is that I'm excited and looking forward to what Daboll can do with the new tools he has been given, while you're just holding your breath waiting for (and expecting) failure. See, I was going to agree with most of your post but then you have add this garbage. What a tool think to add. If you honestly believe I want the Bills to fail, go make love to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 1 minute ago, mannc said: Ridiculous. No one has said Mahomes would have thrown for 50 TDs in Buffalo, or been the league MVP. What is certain, and is not subject to speculation, is that if Mahomes was in Buffalo, he would be one of the very best young QBs in the league. Anyone who says otherwise is the one engaging in a "totally unprovable fantasy assumption." Perhaps you should read some of the projections people have made then. How’s 35 TDs and second to Andy Luck in the AFC? Again, without the multiple Pro Bowlers he had in KC or Reid’s skill as an OC. As to the rest of it, please provide a proof source to back your claim that Mahomes would have flourished in Buffalo? Feel free to use a time machine so he will be drafted by us and also be able to have Hill, Kelce, Hunt as Pro Bowl skill players as well as making Reid our coach and OC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 4 minutes ago, Gugny said: As far as any Allen comparisons go, what I want most is that he has a better season than Darnold and Rosen; and is as good/better than Mayfield. That'll make me happy. I think Mayfield is on another level but certainly the other division first round qbs is a great comparison. I think the Jets and Bills are very similar so whichever qb is better will probably result in the better team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 22 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: In his one start as a rookie, Mahomes had more passing yards than Allen in any of his starts this year. Mahomes is special. Gotta be careful when you play the stats game... Allen's Week 17 stat line as a rookie in a meaningless game: 17/26, 224 yds, 3 TDs, 1 INT, 9 rushes, 95 yards, 2 TDs Mahomes' Week 17 stat line as a rookie in a meaningless game: 22/35, 284 yds, 0 TDs, 1 INT, 7 rushes, 10 yards, 0 TDs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Yup. I simply think Mahomes and Watson are just better qbs than Allen. I don’t think Allen would have done what Mahomes did in KC. He’s just not that type of passer. Mahomes being better than Allen is not the issue being discussed by me. We can all agree that he is and we can only hope Allen can be as good one day. I’m addressing the complete fantasy projections of Mahomes in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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