John Warrow’s High Praise For Beane & McDermott Regime

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

There’s a difference between excusing a decision and making up complete fantasies to support criticism of them. 

 

But it’s a safe space to occupy. I think I’ll try it:

 

If we had Mahomes, we would have won the Super Bowl by now! 

 

Edit: forgot to add how specious it is to say Dennison won a SB as an OC. But I’ll give him credit for being smart enough to stay out of Peyton Manning’s way. 

...um...well okay......the Mahomes saga.....the kid defies all "Sophomore Slump" trepidations and is MVP....so let's back up to how badly Bflo blew the pick...how many TBD picking experts said "no way" because he was a product of the "leper like Air Raid" and "NO Air Raid QB EVER makes it in the NFL"?...."crickets" as far as mea cuplas but they're sure as hell chastizing Bflo.....fraudulent you say?...Mahomes happened to defy most odds as well as having Andy as his QB guru......

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[ColoradoBills]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

 

Put this in your pipe and smoke it: the same people responsible for the substandard offenses the Bills fielded in 2017 and 2018 are also responsible for the 2019 offense.  If it doesn't matter whether or not the Bills goofed in passing on Mahomes because he wouldn't have been nearly as good on the Bills as he was with the Chiefs, what chance does Josh Allen, who has to improve in his game a whole lot to just to become a decent NFL QB, have of becoming one any time in the near future?

 

 

I prefer edibles myself........can't wait to see the 2019 offense.  To paraphrase Broadway Joe, "I guarantee the Bills offense will be better than last year".

[Shaw66]

23 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I prefer edibles myself........can't wait to see the 2019 offense.  To paraphrase Broadway Joe, "I guarantee the Bills offense will be better than last year".

Ah, Joe Willie.  Those were the days when there was no system, no process.  Take a guy with an arm and a good gut feeling for the game and turn him loose!   That's Mahomes, and I expect people are going to see that that is Allen, too.  

[ColoradoBills]

13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Ah, Joe Willie.  Those were the days when there was no system, no process.  Take a guy with an arm and a good gut feeling for the game and turn him loose!   That's Mahomes, and I expect people are going to see that that is Allen, too.  

 

Be a nice way to start this season beating the Jets.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Rico said:

Absolutely loved it, loved them, and loved Jimbo... but the bottom line is they didn't get the job done.

 

Fair enough.

 

Peyton Manning got it done twice.........I don't recall him being a favorite of yours.?

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

What’s with the hyperbole? They were bad but not the worst. https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

Scoring? Focus on DVOA. Fourth. 

 

 

Dave...........all you EVER talk about is DVOA.......it is a nice stat that puts you in the ball park I believe.........but it's actually not universally accepted as the singular defining stat that you try to make it out to be.

 

Point differential is also a really good stat traditionally..............and that's because scoring is also a very telling stat........particularly on game day.

 

I like my offense to score points and my defense to prevent them.   

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He had everything. His body had broken down totally about week 13 the previous year. They were playing a hide the Quarterback offense their SB year. That said having Manning out there is still an advantage because he was still checking them in and out of the right plays. 

 

 

Gotta' love the experts in here that only have a vague recollection of the SB champion from a few years ago and also don't know how to use a search engine.

 

@K-9 thought Manning was still great that year. 

 

How can you be so sure what QB is good enough to win a SB if you don't even follow the league closely enough to remember a few years ago?

 

That's inexcusably ignorant at this depth of discussion.

[Rico]

17 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Fair enough.

 

Peyton Manning got it done twice.........I don't recall him being a favorite of yours.?

Two of the worst seasons ever. I stopped gambling on football in early 2007.

 

[K-9]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Actually Manning was the worst starting QB in the NFL the year the Broncos won the Superbowl. 

He still ran that offense, regardless. My post wasn’t a compliment to a Manning clearly in decline. It was that Dennison was just along for the ride. 

[K-9]

3 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...um...well okay......the Mahomes saga.....the kid defies all "Sophomore Slump" trepidations and is MVP....so let's back up to how badly Bflo blew the pick...how many TBD picking experts said "no way" because he was a product of the "leper like Air Raid" and "NO Air Raid QB EVER makes it in the NFL"?...."crickets" as far as mea cuplas but they're sure as hell chastizing Bflo.....fraudulent you say?...Mahomes happened to defy most odds as well as having Andy as his QB guru......

Oh there was no shortage of people around here knocking him as a prospect. But I wasn’t one of them. I hadn’t seen enough of him to comment one way or the other. 

 

I’d be more interested in those that were pounding the table for him. I remember a couple at the time, but that’s about it. Now, everybody acts like they knew it all the time. World is full of GMs with 20/20 hindsight. 

 

None of that is the point of my post though. The argument is whether or not Mahomes would have enjoyed the same immediate success here as he has in KC. I say no way for reasons I’ve already stated. 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Gotta' love the experts in here that only have a vague recollection of the SB champion from a few years ago and also don't know how to use a search engine.

 

@K-9 thought Manning was still great that year. 

 

How can you be so sure what QB is good enough to win a SB if you don't even follow the league closely enough to remember a few years ago?

 

That's inexcusably ignorant at this depth of discussion.

Wrong again. I said Rick Dennison.knew to stay out of his way. That was Manning’s offense. Your specious point was that since Dennison has a SB ring as an OC,  he was somehow a great OC, and Mahomes would have been lights out with him. That’s too funny for words.

 

Edit: As it turns out, Dennison didn't even call plays that year, it was Kubiak. Makes your assertion even funnier. More inaccurate, but funnier none the less. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by K-9

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Be a nice way to start this season beating the Jets.

I'll be there.   

 

Waiting for someone to invite back the next week to see them beat the Giants.  Then I'll be at the home opener.

 

3-0 when the Pats come to town.   I'm ready!!!

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Wasn't that also the year their defense played lights out?

 

Yea their defense balled out. And obviously the offense was as much Kubiak as it was Dennison. But the idea floated on these boards that Rick Dennison is some sort of incompetent idiot who held the 2017 Bills offense back is simply fantasy. I would say it is fair to say he didn't raise it above the sum of its parts but he got what was there talent wise in my opinion. He was net neutral. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by GunnerBill

[K-9]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Denison was OC in 17.  Daboll last year and this coming year.  The QBs in 17 vs. 18/19 are different.  New O line coach this year vs. the last two.  And so on.  What are you talking about?

If I had to guess, I say he's speaking of those in charge of delegating authority. Like McD in the coaches he hires and Beane in the players he procures. 

[LSHMEAB]

44 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Oh there was no shortage of people around here knocking him as a prospect. But I wasn’t one of them. I hadn’t seen enough of him to comment one way or the other. 

 

I’d be more interested in those that were pounding the table for him. I remember a couple at the time, but that’s about it. Now, everybody acts like they knew it all the time. World is full of GMs with 20/20 hindsight. 

 

Respectfully never understood this argument. None of us are paid to make decisions. Fan clamor for this player or that player is irrelevant. McD chose to pass on Mahomes and Watson, so that's on him. Beane/McDermott went with Allen a year later and that will determine their fate. But THEY are responsible for making decisions, not the fans.

[GunnerBill]

30 minutes ago, K-9 said:

 

Wrong again. I said Rick Dennison.knew to stay out of his way. That was Manning’s offense. Your specious point was that since Dennison has a SB ring as an OC,  he was somehow a great OC, and Mahomes would have been lights out with him. That’s too funny for words.

 

It wasn't Manning's offense. It was Kubiak's offense. It was very much the Shanahan / Kubiak stretch zone. Establish the outside runs early spread the defense out and then attack them with the inside power and the play action pass. 

 

In fact early that season Kubiak and Dennison fell out with Manning over him not wanting to play under center. Manning had since the knew surgery been exclusively a shotgun QB but you can't run the stretch zone effectively when your QB plays exclusively from the gun as it allows the defense to get upfield immediately and penetrate with less of a fear of misdirection. They had a horror show against Baltimore where Manning tried to run his old offense and then Kubiak stepped in shut it down and said "we are going to run my scheme" and they sort of semi compromised with Peyton coming up and playing in the pistol with a single back behind him making the defense honour both sides of the formation a little more and they sort of got Hillman and Anderson going a bit through the middle weeks of the season.

 

If you remember when Manning missed time hurt they didn't go straight back to him. For the first time in his NFL career he was healthy enough to suit up and yet did not start. That was because Osweiler ran "their scheme" more traditionally. 

 

I am not saying Manning played no part in the offense. He did. His ability to check in and out of plays at the line came up big a couple of times on key runs in the playoffs but he was checking into zone running plays. Not plays straight from the Peyton Manning 4 wide, spread offense. That was Kubiak and Dennison's system. Peyton was still a factor but he wasn't THE factor anymore. 

[Shaw66]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I would say it is fair to say he didn't raise it above the sum of its parts but he got what was there talent wise in my opinion. He was net neutral. 

That's a fair assessment, except that neutral is failing.   ANY  decent coach will get the sum of the parts.   That's just giving the guys an offense to play and seeing that they execute as well as they can.   If you're not adding anything, you deserve to be fired at this level.   He had Tyrod Taylor, LeSean McCoy, Dion Dawkins, Eric Wood and Richie Incognito.   Bills were something like 29th in yards and 27th in touchdowns.   Dennison didn't add anything, and he got what he deserved.  

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

That's a fair assessment, except that neutral is failing.   ANY  decent coach will get the sum of the parts.   That's just giving the guys an offense to play and seeing that they execute as well as they can.   If you're not adding anything, you deserve to be fired at this level.   He had Tyrod Taylor, LeSean McCoy, Dion Dawkins, Eric Wood and Richie Incognito.   Bills were something like 29th in yards and 27th in touchdowns.   Dennison didn't add anything, and he got what he deserved.  

 

Neutral is failing compared to good coaching, yes. But he wasn't the reason the offense sucked. The offense sucked because there was not enough talent. I wasn't clamouring for Dennison to stay, thought I wasn't calling for his head either, but the abuse he got on this board was frankly ludicrous. He was blamed for everything short of global warming, the 2008 financial crash and Brexit. Despite having the league's best non throwing Quarterback to work /suffer with. 

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It wasn't Manning's offense. It was Kubiak's offense. It was very much the Shanahan / Kubiak stretch zone. Establish the outside runs early spread the defense out and then attack them with the inside power and the play action pass. 

 

In fact early that season Kubiak and Dennison fell out with Manning over him not wanting to play under center. Manning had since the knew surgery been exclusively a shotgun QB but you can't run the stretch zone effectively when your QB plays exclusively from the gun as it allows the defense to get upfield immediately and penetrate with less of a fear of misdirection. They had a horror show against Baltimore where Manning tried to run his old offense and then Kubiak stepped in shut it down and said "we are going to run my scheme" and they sort of semi compromised with Peyton coming up and playing in the pistol with a single back behind him making the defense honour both sides of the formation a little more and they sort of got Hillman and Anderson going a bit through the middle weeks of the season.

 

If you remember when Manning missed time hurt they didn't go straight back to him. For the first time in his NFL career he was healthy enough to suit up and yet did not start. That was because Osweiler ran "their scheme" more traditionally. 

 

I am not saying Manning played no part in the offense. He did. His ability to check in and out of plays at the line came up big a couple of times on key runs in the playoffs but he was checking into zone running plays. Not plays straight from the Peyton Manning 4 wide, spread offense. That was Kubiak and Dennison's system. Peyton was still a factor but he wasn't THE factor anymore. 

While I appreciate the the explanation, it's not necessary as again, the point was that Dennison's title of "OC" was in name only. Kubiak called the plays and Manning agreed or not. All season.

 

Now I know this wasn't your assertion, but I need to repeat how we went down this avenue of discussion about Manning and the Broncos. It was the idea put forth that Dennison was some sort of offensive innovator that would have gotten the same out of Mahomes as Reid did in KC. That is ludicrous.  

[BADOLBILZ]

35 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Wrong again. I said Rick Dennison.knew to stay out of his way. That was Manning’s offense. 

 

 

So he just got out of the way for the 6 games Brock Osweiler started?

 

Including the win over New England in Denver that gave them the tie-breaker advantage for homefield?

 

Even Manning didn't just play Manning's Indy offense that year............it was a big part of the storyline of that team........winning the opener with Manning playing a WCO then him running his old offense in the 4th quarter the next week to upset KC at Arrowhead............

 

Dunce-worthy takes from K-9...........nothing new.

 

You are such a poser of NFL knowledge on this board...............have some respect for "the process" of discussion on this board..........less posting and more thought and fact checking would be a start.

 

 

 

[K-9]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

So he just got out of the way for the 6 games Brock Osweiler started?

 

Including the win over New England in Denver that gave them the tie-breaker advantage for homefield?

 

Even Manning didn't just play Manning's Indy offense that year............it was a big part of the storyline of that team........winning the opener with Manning playing a WCO then him running his old offense in the 4th quarter the next week to upset KC at Arrowhead............

 

Dunce-worthy takes from K-9...........nothing new.

 

You are such a poser of NFL knowledge on this board...............have some respect for "the process" of discussion on this board..........less posting and more thought and fact checking would be a start.

 

 

 

Kubiak called the plays and Manning either ran them or checked out of them. 

 

All season. 

 

Rick Dennison: offensive coordinator genius! Right. 

 

Edit: Uh oh. Your predictable trail of minor insults is starting. It's only a matter of time before you lose it entirely. It's your cycle. But I have to say, "have some respect for 'the process' of discussion on this board" is perhaps the most hypocritical statement ever. I'll leave you alone now, though. It's just too easy. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by K-9