O Line continuity concerns?

[Art in PNS]

11 hours ago, twist_to_open said:

I've been lamenting this for a while, we brought a bunch of fresh blood in for our O line and I applaud Beane & co for that, but from what I see is alot of "flex" players and the possibility of another round of mix and match going on during OTAs and camp like last year. Could this be a systemic problem? Or does our new O line coach and O coordinator have a plan of who will be their starters and whose depth? Or will we be fiddling with the line through week 3 or so?

Help me out because I haven't slept well for weeks because of this.

As long as they don't have an OPEN Competition all the way through training camp I think they will be OK. They need to get a line in place as soon as possible and then just figure out the second guys and how to rotate them in.

[Chandler#81]

18 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

This is why we need to draft good blockers. Over the years I have not seen a huge amount of great blockers acquired by trade (unless you want to count the Bills trading HOF Jason Taylor)  or free agency. I am pretty sure our OL will be better this year, but they still need to dedicate early resources in he draft to give Josh Allen the protection he requires and deserves.

What I don't want to see is Josh having to run for huge yardage. RBs don't last so I can't expect Josh to last if he is our leading rusher.

 

I’m sure you mean Jason Peters. To your concern for Allen running for huge yardage, I’m not. The huge yardage comes from a talented and uniquely skilled, fast running QB. I’m sure he didn’t intend to break 30+ yarders every time he broke contain, he just DID. That’s more Freak than recklessness. I get it. It scares the hell outta me too! But we’re witnessing a phenomena. He’s pretty adept at avoiding a big hit. Nobody can defend against cheap shots, ala Kiko. That’s why they’re penalties and will always be a concern.

 

But Josh running is an experience to behold!

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

I hate to rain on your parade and keep you and the OP tossing and turning with worry but there's a whole lot more to building a successful OL than just collecting a bunch of big guys.  I'm sure you'd find the OLers from last season's team are about the same size.  That said, they should be better than last year's group simply because last year's group was so lacking in talent, ie blocking ability, agility, strength etc

 

Furthermore, no matter how great an OL a team has, a QB can still get hurt even if he is primarily a pocket QB.  Running QBs are in even more danger.

 

Unless Allen can develop as a good passer, his running ability isn't going to scare any opponents "to death".

1. Allen is not a running QB. He is a QB who can run.

2. It is amazing how most of your posts, regardless of the topic, end with some sort of criticism of Allen - as if each thread for you is an exercise in "six degrees to Josh Allen sucks"

[Buffalo86]

I'm every bit as concerned about the continuity of our formerly horrid O-line as I was concerned about the continuity of Whaley & Brandon.  Not at all.

[Bill from NYC]

20 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

 

I’m sure you mean Jason Peters. To your concern for Allen running for huge yardage, I’m not. The huge yardage comes from a talented and uniquely skilled, fast running QB. I’m sure he didn’t intend to break 30+ yarders every time he broke contain, he just DID. That’s more Freak than recklessness. I get it. It scares the hell outta me too! But we’re witnessing a phenomena. He’s pretty adept at avoiding a big hit. Nobody can defend against cheap shots, ala Kiko. That’s why they’re penalties and will always be a concern.

 

But Josh running is an experience to behold!

There is zero doubt that watching Josh run is fun and very exciting, and;  he has freakish talent. I was behind this pick from day 1.

 

The thing is, the thrills I get from these great plays would pale in comparison to the anguish that I would feel if he got a serious injury because he had to run. He is a bigger target than Tyrod and many defenders, rule changes and all, have super human strength and are predators.

 

I don't want him to forego the run entirely. It is way too valuable a weapon to not ever use. I just don't want him to have to run as often. His arm is also freakish.

[SoTier]

44 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

1. Allen is not a running QB. He is a QB who can run.

2. It is amazing how most of your posts, regardless of the topic, end with some sort of criticism of Allen - as if each thread for you is an exercise in "six degrees to Josh Allen sucks"

 

Whoopty-do.  Semantics. 

 

Last season Allen depended entirely too much on his ability to run for him to be successful long term as a NFL QB.  Partly, that was because he was a rookie.  Partly that was because of the crappy team the Bills' supposedly "top 5 GM" put around him.  Partly that was because of the inexperienced QB coach the supposedly "great HC" hired.  Saying that Allen needs to develop his passing game isn't a snarky criticism of Allen, it's a fact.  Even much more polished passers than Allen coming out of college like Goff, Wentz, and Mahomes had to get better as passers in order to have success in the NFL.  Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen, and Jackson will all have to significantly up their passing games if any of them are to have long term success, too -- and there's absolutely no guarantee that any of the 2018 rookie QBs will actually become outstanding NFL QBs long term.

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, SoTier said:

Whoopty-do.  Semantics. 

 

Last season Allen depended entirely too much on his ability to run for him to be successful long term as a NFL QB.  Partly, that was because he was a rookie.  Partly that was because of the crappy team the Bills' supposedly "top 5 GM" put around him.  Partly that was because of the inexperienced QB coach the supposedly "great HC" hired.  Saying that Allen needs to develop his passing game isn't a snarky criticism of Allen, it's a fact.  Even much more polished passers than Allen coming out of college like Goff, Wentz, and Mahomes had to get better as passers in order to have success in the NFL.  Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen, and Jackson will all have to significantly up their passing games if any of them are to have long term success, too -- and there's absolutely no guarantee that any of the 2018 rookie QBs will actually become outstanding NFL QBs long term.

Except it isn't semantics. If you don't understand the difference between a running QB and a pocket passer that has mobility and the ability to run, then it really says a lot about your ability to accurately assess the QB position.

 

As for the need for Allen to improve, there is really no debate that, like any other QB coming into the NFL, he has a lot to learn and much to improve on. That wasn't my point. My point was you have a history of turning any topic into a criticism of Allen - and that criticism is typically as accurate and insightful as your statement that the difference between a running QB and a pocket QB that can run is "semantics." I have no problem if you want to criticize Allen. Heaven knows there is plenty to criticize at this point. However, most of your criticisms are so clearly skewed to fit a narrative that they tend to lose credibility.

[SoTier]

 

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

This is why we need to draft good blockers. Over the years I have not seen a huge amount of great blockers acquired by trade (unless you want to count the Bills trading HOF Jason Peters)  or free agency. I am pretty sure our OL will be better this year, but they still need to dedicate early resources in he draft to give Josh Allen the protection he requires and deserves.

What I don't want to see is Josh having to run for huge yardage. RBs don't last so I can't expect Josh to last if he is our leading rusher.

 

I think teams that want to be successful should ALWAYS be on the look out for OL talent because linemen on both sides of the ball are always getting hurt, often times just minor "nicks" but sometimes catastrophic injuries, and having a functional OL is the best insurance for the team's QB.   Last year, the Bills OL wasn't functional as either a pass or run blocking unit, and it showed. 

 

[dgrochester55]

Hard to tell what will happen, I am just happy that Buffalo did something about this. 

 

From last year, Dawkins will at least be for now the left tackle, and Teller will be on the roster as either the starter or a backup.

 

After that, Morse and Spain are the closest to sure things.   I feel like Nsekhe or Waddell will grab the RT spot and likely be an upgrade over Sam Mills. 

 

From there, you have a few marginal starters looking for a chance.  Some will be cut while others will be the next Bodine or Newhouse but based on law of averages, one or two will start or at least be a good backup.

 

You also have the draft to factor in, but overall, I am confident that this line will be much better than last year.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by dgrochester55

[SoTier]

6 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Except it isn't semantics. If you don't understand the difference between a running QB and a pocket passer that has mobility and the ability to run, then it really says a lot about your ability to accurately assess the QB position.

 

As for the need for Allen to improve, there is really no debate that, like any other QB coming into the NFL, he has a lot to learn and much to improve on. That wasn't my point. My point was you have a history of turning any topic into a criticism of Allen - and that criticism is typically as accurate and insightful as your statement that the difference between a running QB and a pocket QB that can run is "semantics." I have no problem if you want to criticize Allen. Heaven knows there is plenty to criticize at this point. However, most of your criticisms are so clearly skewed to fit a narrative that they tend to lose credibility.

 

I understand the difference perfectly well but I'm not going to constantly delineate it when that difference is irrelevant to the idea I was presenting.  You're being a "definition nazi" here as opposed to a "grammar nazi". 

 

Actually, what loses credibility is your accusation that I'm always criticizing Allen.  I really have not.  He's a rookie who has a lot to learn.  Hopefully he can learn it, and be successful but I won't be surprised if he doesn't.  About half of the QBs drafted in the first round who are not the #1 pick in their draft year fail to become franchise QBs.  That's not criticism, that;s borne out by the numbers -- and those failures are not always spectacular like with Manziel but more like Bortles or Tannehill. 

 

What I have criticized -- and will continue to do so until I see differently -- is the Bills organization for their handling of the QB situation.  The team invested a huge amount of talent and draft capital in a very green QB and then failed to give him the support he needed:

• an unqualified QB coach (no NFL QB coaching experience while his collegiate QB experience as a player and coach was 30+ years ago);
• no NFL caliber veteran to provide, at worse, a decent example of how a starting QB does his job, and to allow Allen to sit and learn for at least a few games;
• waiting a month for Derek Anderson to finish his golf tourney before signing him while wasting a roster spot on Peterman;
• an OL that couldn't pass protect and couldn't run block, which would have given Allen many more options than doing everything himself;
• a WR corps devoid of speed until the very end of the season with too many serious candidates for an All-NFL poor hands team;

The Bills are damned lucky Allen escaped last season physically and psychologically unharmed.  Apparently, Beane thinks so, too, because he has taken steps to try to remedy all those deficiencies.  The regular season will tell whether his moves were successful.

[iinii]

12 hours ago, The Senator said:

 

I use oxycodone and morphine 

Better living through chemistry 

[Cripple Creek]

14 hours ago, twist_to_open said:

I've been lamenting this for a while, we brought a bunch of fresh blood in for our O line and I applaud Beane & co for that, but from what I see is alot of "flex" players and the possibility of another round of mix and match going on during OTAs and camp like last year. Could this be a systemic problem? Or does our new O line coach and O coordinator have a plan of who will be their starters and whose depth? Or will we be fiddling with the line through week 3 or so?

Help me out because I haven't slept well for weeks because of this.

Better to have continuity concerns than concerns over lack of coaching/ability.

[Augie]

22 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

Better to have continuity concerns than concerns over lack of coaching/ability.

 

Yeah, status quo was NOT the answer there! 

[billsfan1959]

59 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I understand the difference perfectly well but I'm not going to constantly delineate it when that difference is irrelevant to the idea I was presenting.  You're being a "definition nazi" here as opposed to a "grammar nazi". 

 

Actually, what loses credibility is your accusation that I'm always criticizing Allen.  I really have not.  He's a rookie who has a lot to learn.  Hopefully he can learn it, and be successful but I won't be surprised if he doesn't.  About half of the QBs drafted in the first round who are not the #1 pick in their draft year fail to become franchise QBs.  That's not criticism, that;s borne out by the numbers -- and those failures are not always spectacular like with Manziel but more like Bortles or Tannehill. 

 

What I have criticized -- and will continue to do so until I see differently -- is the Bills organization for their handling of the QB situation.  The team invested a huge amount of talent and draft capital in a very green QB and then failed to give him the support he needed:

• an unqualified QB coach (no NFL QB coaching experience while his collegiate QB experience as a player and coach was 30+ years ago);
• no NFL caliber veteran to provide, at worse, a decent example of how a starting QB does his job, and to allow Allen to sit and learn for at least a few games;
• waiting a month for Derek Anderson to finish his golf tourney before signing him while wasting a roster spot on Peterman;
• an OL that couldn't pass protect and couldn't run block, which would have given Allen many more options than doing everything himself;
• a WR corps devoid of speed until the very end of the season with too many serious candidates for an All-NFL poor hands team;

The Bills are damned lucky Allen escaped last season physically and psychologically unharmed.  Apparently, Beane thinks so, too, because he has taken steps to try to remedy all those deficiencies.  The regular season will tell whether his moves were successful.

Actually, you have spent a great deal of time criticizing Allen and, IMO, it has for the most part, not been accurate. 

 

As an aside, whether any other QB that ever came into the NFL was successful or not successful has zero relevance to Allen. Zero.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

13 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Actually, you have spent a great deal of time criticizing Allen and, IMO, it has for the most part, not been accurate. 

 

As an aside, whether any other QB that ever came into the NFL was successful or not successful has zero relevance to Allen. Zero.

 

...quite frankly, it is ANYTHING to do with Bflo period.....

[T master]

With the influx of new players there will be a certain amount time to get to know how each other plays but hopefully OTA's & camp will take some of the edge off & by the time the first game role around each players will have a good clue how the others do things .

 

All will be in a fairly new scheme except the guys coming back from last season but seeing as some are payers that are thrown into the mix when starters get hurt i would think they can pick up quickly while on the run .

 

So don't worry to much it will all work out !!! 

[Formerly Allan in MD]

16 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

This is why rebiulding the OL through free agency was the way to go......veterans gel more quickly

A number of them are on one year deals.  How does that enhance continuity?  That's one of the reasons we need to draft Taylor or Williams in round one to create some young, solid anchors for this line.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Formerly Allan in MD said:

A number of them are on one year deals.  How does that enhance continuity?  That's one of the reasons we need to draft Taylor or Williams in round one to create some young, solid anchors for this line.

Because we are going to get their best as they want a long term contract.....and we have the money to resign ALL of them if they perform.

 

 

[Chandler#81]

5 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

Whoopty-do.  Semantics. 

 

Last season Allen depended entirely too much on his ability to run for him to be successful long term as a NFL QB.  Partly, that was because he was a rookie.  Partly that was because of the crappy team the Bills' supposedly "top 5 GM" put around him.  Partly that was because of the inexperienced QB coach the supposedly "great HC" hired.  Saying that Allen needs to develop his passing game isn't a snarky criticism of Allen, it's a fact.  Even much more polished passers than Allen coming out of college like Goff, Wentz, and Mahomes had to get better as passers in order to have success in the NFL.  Mayfield, Darnold, Rosen, and Jackson will all have to significantly up their passing games if any of them are to have long term success, too -- and there's absolutely no guarantee that any of the 2018 rookie QBs will actually become outstanding NFL QBs long term.

 

“ I hate to rain on your parade..” 

Nice way to endear yourself, Sire.

[John from Riverside]

8 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

I hate to rain on your parade and keep you and the OP tossing and turning with worry but there's a whole lot more to building a successful OL than just collecting a bunch of big guys.  I'm sure you'd find the OLers from last season's team are about the same size.  That said, they should be better than last year's group simply because last year's group was so lacking in talent, ie blocking ability, agility, strength etc

 

Furthermore, no matter how great an OL a team has, a QB can still get hurt even if he is primarily a pocket QB.  Running QBs are in even more danger.

 

Unless Allen can develop as a good passer, his running ability isn't going to scare any opponents "to death".

It is the next stage in his development......hopefully we see that this year.

[Toesy]

IMO Allen displayed fantastic pocket awareness and elusiveness as a rookie QB-most rookie QBs would have been shell shocked playing behind that line. He reminded me of a big strong version of Doug Flutie. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Toesy

[CookieG]

I'd be more concerned if the OL from last year continued.

[Nihilarian]

7 hours ago, billsredneck1 said:

i believe long and nseke played these spots together in wash.  the biggest oline improvement that could be made has already been done. juan is gone.

he was set from his days in h.s. to become a stud defensive line player.... until his college coach forced the switch due to injuries.

 

i bet had he stayed put, he would have been drafted much higher.  maybe they toy with that a bit? i'd like to see him take a few dt snaps.....

7

I heartedly agree about Juan Castillio as he should have never been hired. There was an immediate downturn in the run game from Greg Roman/Anthoney Lynn who built a #1 run game to what Castillio did. Yards per attempt went from #1 two years in a row in 2015-16 down to 14th in 2017 under Castillio and it was even worse at first, this with the very same running QB and lead back. 

 

McCoy went from a 5.4 yards per attempt in 2016 to 4.0 in 2017 and it was worse at first until McCoy turned it up on his own in the second half of the season. Last season without Incognito/Woods the yards per attempt went to 21st. While the actual overall yardage and #5 in rushing attempts don't look so bad... it's because of QB Josh Allen was the leading rusher with 631 yards rushing at a whopping 7.1 yards per attempt. 

 

 

 

The Bills went from a power or gap scheme means you have double teams at the point of attack and the way you cut the defense is with double teams or kick out blocks.

 

The zone scheme is much more complex! The wide zone or outside zone, the way you cut the defense is to stretch the front side and then the backside you cut the defenders. That's how you create seams by cutting the defenders so there is no backside pursuit. The tight zone or inside zone is different so that you have some double teams but different from the power/gap scheme but it still requires cutting the defender.

 

I think we can all see which was the more successful blocking scheme.

 

[TigerJ]

Chemistry and cohesiveness on the o-line are certainly an issue.  Beane knows that, and noted that last year's problems stemmed less from a lack of talent and more from a lack of chemistry.  Except for Morse, the guys Beane brought in look mostly like band aids.  They may be better band aid's than we had last year, but the fact that most got short term contracts tells you Bean is hedging his bet on their ability to make a long term difference.  I think Nsekhe is pretty good.  I think he'll start at right tackle and handle things pretty well.  Greg Cosell thinks Spencer Long is a quality guard.  I'll defer to his expertise.  If we assume he starts, along with Dawkins, Morse and Nsekhe, it means there is really only one spot that needs to get settled, the guard spot opposite from Long.  I don't know that they will settle on the starter at that spot before training camp, but if they at least nail it down within the first week of training camp, I think the rest of training camp is probably enough to at least get some chemistry/cohesiveness started, though it would need to continue developing throughout the season.