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Greg Roman promoted to OC in Baltimore

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5 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Roman had a top 10 scoring offense.

 

and if Daboll was such a good scheming coach, held back by lack of talent, why won’t a good team hire him?  

 

 

Christ, he was reduced to rolling out Brady Quinn (in two stops!), Chad Henne, Matt Moore, Seneca Wallace, Derek Anderson, and FREAKING LATE-ERA JP LOSMAN!!! Plus a near-death version of Matt Cassell, who sucks.  The best QB he ever had was the early career version of Colt McCoy, who also sucked. Keep focusing on the top line numbers, and you miss the real drivers of situations: the players, and in particular the QBs. He has never had a QB who is better than a garden-variety backup, and that is a fact -- inarguable.  

5 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Roman had a top 10 scoring offense in Buffalo.  

 

and if Daboll was such a good scheming coach, held back by lack of talent, why won’t a good team hire him?  

 

 

Um ... because Nick Saban and Bill Belichick keep hiring him?

Edited by dave mcbride
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3 hours ago, BillyWhiteShows said:

So is it even certain that Harbaugh is back?

 

Roman got a raw deal in Buffalo.  I still think he’s a good OC.  Really has never had a great QB to work with.  

 

Roman is a specialized OC.  He has had some success with mobile, running QB.  Yet that success has always fallen short of being able to compete in a shoot-out.

Analysts who know something have commented that his passing game does not seem very well designed.

 

I guess it depends upon what you mean by "great QB to work with".  It's actually not clear to me that if Roman were handed, say, Drew Brees, he could design the kind of passing game that makes Brees so effective.  But his ability to craft a creative and effective running game can not be doubted.

 

One thing is clear: Jackson has become the Ravens "Ride or Die"

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3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Christ, he was reduced to rolling out Brady Quinn (in two stops!), Chad Henne, Matt Moore, Seneca Wallace, and FREAKING LATE-ERA JP LOSMAN!!! Plus a near-death version of Matt Cassell, who sucks.  Keep focusing on the top line numbers, and you miss the real drivers of situations: the players. 

Appreciate the conversation Dave.  But this sounds like my Dick Jauron defense.  The fact he got 7 wins out of those crappy rosters was amazing.  Did that make him a good coach?  Honestly, I’m asking.  That’s what I feel like you are saying for Daboll.  I’d argue his connections have keep him employed more than his actual resume.

 

but again, I’ll love for him to lead a dynamic offense and make Allen into a franchise guy.  But man, the evidence isn’t great.

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Roman is a specialized OC.  He has had some success with mobile, running QB.  Yet that success has always fallen short of being able to compete in a shoot-out.

Analysts who know something have commented that his passing game does not seem very well designed.

 

I guess it depends upon what you mean by "great QB to work with".  It's actually not clear to me that if Roman were handed, say, Drew Brees, he could design the kind of passing game that makes Brees so effective.  But his ability to craft a creative and effective running game can not be doubted.

 

One thing is clear: Jackson has become the Ravens "Ride or Die"

I think Allen would be great in a Roman offense.

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The Bills had a top 10 offense with Roman and the fans complained that too many of the yards were rushing yards.  He is a good coach and so is Anthony Lynn.  The Bills were lucky and still liked to complain about the offense.  

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2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Appreciate the conversation Dave.  But this sounds like my Dick Jauron defense.  The fact he got 7 wins out of those crappy rosters was amazing.  Did that make him a good coach?  Honestly, I’m asking.  That’s what I feel like you are saying for Daboll.  I’d argue his connections have keep him employed more than his actual resume.

 

but again, I’ll love for him to lead a dynamic offense and make Allen into a franchise guy.  But man, the evidence isn’t great.

I think Allen would be great in a Roman offense.

He was a by all accounts a very good position coach in NE, and he did a perfectly good job in Alabama despite the lousy QB (they won the national championship!). And he was certainly right about this: https://www.rollbamaroll.com/2018/1/16/16896212/jumbo-package-daboll-left-after-personnel-frustration-wanted-to-play-tua-sooner

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15 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Christ, he was reduced to rolling out Brady Quinn (in two stops!), Chad Henne, Matt Moore, Seneca Wallace, Derek Anderson, and FREAKING LATE-ERA JP LOSMAN!!! Plus a near-death version of Matt Cassell, who sucks.  The best QB he ever had was the early career version of Colt McCoy, who also sucked. Keep focusing on the top line numbers, and you miss the real drivers of situations: the players, and in particular the QBs. He has never had a QB who is better than a garden-variety backup, and that is a fact -- inarguable.  

Um ... because Nick Saban and Bill Belichick keep hiring him?

Remind  me who are the great Belichick and Saban coaches who go on to have success other places? Fact is, most of these guys struggle badly once they leave the successful bubble of NE and Bama.

 

jalen Hurts was better under Lane Kiffin as a freshman than under Daboll.  Sorry for venting but I feel like we will be having the same conversation next year wondering why our offense wasn’t better.  

7 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He was a by all accounts a very good position coach in NE, and he did a perfectly good job in Alabama despite the lousy QB (they won the national championship!). And he was certainly right about this: https://www.rollbamaroll.com/2018/1/16/16896212/jumbo-package-daboll-left-after-personnel-frustration-wanted-to-play-tua-sooner

Their lousy Qb was the SEC player of the year as a freshman under Kiffin!!!

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32 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/DaboBr0.htm

 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/RomaGr0.htm

 

at what point, when someone is basically a bottom 5 Nfl OC for their entire career, do you stop blaming the players?  At what point does it become Daboll’s responsibilities?

 

 

 

 

When he gets some good players. 

 

Look at the crap he's had at QB. This might've been his best QB group this year.

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9 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Remind  me who are the great Belichick and Saban coaches who go on to have success other places? Fact is, most of these guys struggle badly once they leave the successful bubble of NE and Bama.

 

jalen Hurts was better under Lane Kiffin as a freshman than under Daboll.  Sorry for venting but I feel like we will be having the same conversation next year wondering why our offense wasn’t better.  

Kirby Smart is good. Kirk Ferentz is good. Bill O'Brien is good. And Saban was an assistant to Belichick. He's good.

 

Jalen Hurts, however, is not good.  As for the comparison with Kiffin, they averaged 455 yds/game under Kiffin and 444 under Daboll. The difference is negligible. They declined from 38.8 ppg to 37.1, but those numbers are fishy anyway given that the vast majority of the games in both seasons were utter blowouts. 

9 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

Their lousy Qb was the SEC player of the year as a freshman under Kiffin!!!

If you don't think he stinks, I don't know what to say. Guys like that who are good runners come on the scene and fool teams for a season, but they when other teams that are good (Auburn, Georgia) get a lot of film on that player, he will fall apart. He's a terrible thrower, and he's thinking about transferring. He'll never play in the NFL as a starting QB. 

Edited by dave mcbride
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Well, we know what Baltimore will do on offense  Roman should be good for a QB like Jackson.  Roman's expeirince with Kaepernick and Tyrod Taylor might have more than a little to do with Harbaugh's motive in making the switch.  Wide receivers might become a bit disgruntledat the reduced number of receptions, though the percentage of deep balls should rise.  Roman's tyheory is you run the ball so effectively that you force defenses to overcommit to stopping it,k leaving the secondary more vulnerable to deep passes.

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2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Roman is the best at hiding QBs, no doubt, he did it with Kap and did it Tyrod and will do it with Lamar. That said even without being able to run a "conventional" passing offense as you term it, I think it IS still possible to run a more coherent scheme where the passing game works off the run game. I think about the Kubaik offense which has successfully been run first and hidden average to bad Quarterbacks and you can do it.  I'm a big Greg Roman fan I just think that it is possible to build a better pass game onto his rush offense. More boot action and throwing from more moving pockets was something I always wanted to see more of with Tyrod. Run it off and out of the same formation and look as the speed pitch plays they ran so effectively and I think you'd get linebackers biting.

 

I agree with your general sentiment. However, where I have a little difference with you is that over time you can only do so much with qbs who are unique attribute qbs. As you well know teams adjust to what you do well and try to force you into doing what you don't do well. If Jackson wants to be a long-term franchise qb he is going to have to steadily add to his game. I also apply this standard to Josh Allen. The bottom line is that success for a qb is more predicated on the arm and mind talent, and less so on the leg talent.

 

As like you I thought Roman did a good job with us after having to deal with the talent limitations he had to work with. Coaching is certainly an important ingredient for success in this league. On the other hand the most determinative factor for success is the overall talent that a coach has to work with. 

 

In general, we are both rowing in the same boat. 

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4 hours ago, BillyWhiteShows said:

So is it even certain that Harbaugh is back?

 

Roman got a raw deal in Buffalo.  I still think he’s a good OC.  Really has never had a great QB to work with.  

so true. but we couldnt tell how smart he actually was til the whole tyrod thing played out. people were thinking they were holding him back..when in fact they were optimizing him.

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20 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Kirby Smart is good. Kirk Ferentz is good. Bill O'Brien is good. And Saban was an assistant to Belichick. He's good.

 

Jalen Hurts, however, is not good.  As for the comparison with Kiffin, they averaged 455 yds/game under Kiffin and 444 under Daboll. The difference is negligible. They declined from 38.8 ppg to 37.1, but those numbers are fishy anyway given that the vast majority of the games in both seasons were utter blowouts. 

If you don't think he stinks, I don't know what to say. Guys like that who are good runners come on the scene and fool teams for a season, but they when other teams that are good (Auburn, Georgia) get a lot of film on that player, he will fall apart. He's a terrible thrower, and he's thinking about transferring. He'll never play in the NFL as a starting QB. 

Daboll also might have helped out a bit by bringing Foster on board. ;)

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Roman was one of the better OC's we've had in Buffalo. Seems like a good fit for Baltimore. I think they're gonna be a really tough team next season. With virtually every team going finesse, they're going old school. What they've done is assembled the proper personnel/coaching staff to play smashmouth defense AND offense. Not an easy task.

 

Not sure if you can win a SB like that anymore, but that's clearly their MO.

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1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Appreciate the conversation Dave.  But this sounds like my Dick Jauron defense.  The fact he got 7 wins out of those crappy rosters was amazing.  Did that make him a good coach?  Honestly, I’m asking.  That’s what I feel like you are saying for Daboll.  I’d argue his connections have keep him employed more than his actual resume.

 

but again, I’ll love for him to lead a dynamic offense and make Allen into a franchise guy.  But man, the evidence isn’t great.

I think Allen would be great in a Roman offense.

completely agree cbiscuit....Roman for HC 2020??

Edited by Tcali
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1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

I dunno. I thought Daboll called good games this season. Talent was the issue. 

 

I agree. I totally understand where C.Biscuit is coming from with the track record in his previous stops as an OC in the NFL, however, never once watching a game this season did I think "Daboll is the problem here." Mind you I was one of the rare beasts who didn't think Rick Dennison was a major problem last year either (though he had to go for pushing the case for Nasty Nate). The problem on this team offensively the past two years has been talent, pure and simple. And if you want evidence of that to me it is that as Allen's play began to elevate and Foster and McKenzie emerged as playmakers the offense suddenly spluttered into some kind of life. 

 

That isnt to say I am sold on Daboll as a top OC.... I am not. But I am sold on the Bills' offensive woes in 2018 being on talent not scheme. 

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1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree. I totally understand where C.Biscuit is coming from with the track record in his previous stops as an OC in the NFL, however, never once watching a game this season did I think "Daboll is the problem here." Mind you I was one of the rare beasts who didn't think Rick Dennison was a major problem last year either (though he had to go for pushing the case for Nasty Nate). The problem on this team offensively the past two years has been talent, pure and simple. And if you want evidence of that to me it is that as Allen's play began to elevate and Foster and McKenzie emerged as playmakers the offense suddenly spluttered into some kind of life. 

 

That isnt to say I am sold on Daboll as a top OC.... I am not. But I am sold on the Bills' offensive woes in 2018 being on talent not scheme. 

Agreed, but I guess my real point is that Daboll, for whatever reason, has been cursed with absolutely awful QB talent in every one of his NFL OC stops. And I truly mean awful. As I said above, the best QB prospect he ever had in his many stops prior to Buffalo was probably Colt McCoy in his rookie season, and he stunk too. Perhaps these are the dues he had to pay to appease the football gods (punishing him for being a longtime-BB guy). I'm hoping they have finally deigned to grant him a good QB--which is what I'm hoping Allen turns out to be. 

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4 hours ago, BuffaloBillies said:

Roman was fired the day after the offense put up 393 yards and 31 points against the Jets.

Rex's D gave up 37 points that day in the loss.

CLEARLY this was the offenses' fault.

lol... very true.

 

I made a comment recently that after that game Rex, off to fire someone,  got confused and walked into the wrong coordinator's office.

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1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Appreciate the conversation Dave.  But this sounds like my Dick Jauron defense.  The fact he got 7 wins out of those crappy rosters was amazing.  Did that make him a good coach?  Honestly, I’m asking.  That’s what I feel like you are saying for Daboll.  I’d argue his connections have keep him employed more than his actual resume.

 

but again, I’ll love for him to lead a dynamic offense and make Allen into a franchise guy.  But man, the evidence isn’t great.

I think Allen would be great in a Roman offense.

 

I think Daboll's past record as an OC is completely uninspiring and does not provide much in the way of evidence that he's a good OC.

 

On the other hand...he went back to the Pats for 4 years then was successful in the college ranks for a year.  People who fail do sometimes learn and grow from the experience and succeed when they get another chance.

 

Time will tell which is true of Daboll.

 

 

42 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I agree. I totally understand where C.Biscuit is coming from with the track record in his previous stops as an OC in the NFL, however, never once watching a game this season did I think "Daboll is the problem here."

 

Huh.  I watched a number of games where I thought the scheme and playcalling were strange.  Situationally inappropriate on the latter and already shown in previous games not to work well for our guys (while other choices worked better).

 

I did feel he improved through the season.

 

But my jury is out, and while I can't say I watched a game where I thought "Daboll is THE problem", I did watch a number of games where I thought "why is he calling that here?" or "why is he still trying to do that?"

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5 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Maybe Harbaugh has enough attention to detail to make sure plays get in to the QB before 4 seconds are left on the clock.  Rex didn't.  A careful head coach deals with that issue.

Roman had the same problem in San Fran.

5 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

So basically the same thing only flipping job titles?

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12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think Daboll's past record as an OC is completely uninspiring and does not provide much in the way of evidence that he's a good OC.

 

On the other hand...he went back to the Pats for 4 years then was successful in the college ranks for a year.  People who fail do sometimes learn and grow from the experience and succeed when they get another chance.

 

Time will tell which is true of Daboll.

 

 

 

Huh.  I watched a number of games where I thought the scheme and playcalling were strange.  Situationally inappropriate on the latter and already shown in previous games not to work well for our guys (while other choices worked better).

 

I did feel he improved through the season.

 

But my jury is out, and while I can't say I watched a game where I thought "Daboll is THE problem", I did watch a number of games where I thought "why is he calling that here?" or "why is he still trying to do that?"

Didn't like the run scheme (poor OL personnel notwithstanding), but hopefully that was on Castillo.

 

As to the situational playcalling, the one that sticks in my craw was the gadget play on 3rd and 4 against the Jets. Everything "normal" was clicking on offense. You pull those shenanigans on 1st or 2nd down IMO. Looking back on that game, it was a pretty significant turning point.

 

Did seem to improve as the season progressed, but I'm far from sold.

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Now everyone will know that Baltimore's game plan will be run run pass punt. 

Edited by BuffaloMatt

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43 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Roman had the same problem in San Fran.

So basically the same thing only flipping job titles?

Nope, he’s leaving now 

 

 

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5 hours ago, JohnC said:

Lamar Jackson is Lamar Jackson as Tyrod Taylor is Tyrod Taylor. You work with what you got . If you don't have a conventional passer you can't devise a conventional offense. How do you have a coherent offense when from a conventional sense you can't have a coherent offense because the running and passing game don't work in tandem? So you do your best to magnify your strengths and minimize your gaping lack of a passing game. 

 

The issue/problem isn't who the coach is so much as how the offense is constructed. When a qb doesn't have an ability to play a well-rounded game then you as a OC is limited. 

 

Tyrod couldn't add enough to his (passing and vision) game to advance it. The issue is whether Lamar can add to his (passing and vision) game to advance it. Again, you work with what you got. 

 

The issue with Roman is - its more complex than maybe it needs to be?  Tons of formations, tons of running plays - all this means is it tends to take longer to get plays in.  This gets you to the line late... this makes it harder to set protection, use pre-snap motion, and even get the snap off in time.  It wasn't just Tyrod, he had the same problems in SF.  It's like the opposite of mcvay - who wants you lined up while he's still in the headset.  

 

If he can clean up that aspect of his game-calling i think he'll do just fine.  His offense is tailor made for LJ.  The 3rd read is like... always to run.  You have a high sack rate but tend to actually not lose a ton of yards on the sacks.  Take some deep shots - lots of hitches and out routes.  Easy reads - its there or it isn't.  If it isn't, RUN.

2 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Roman was one of the better OC's we've had in Buffalo. Seems like a good fit for Baltimore. I think they're gonna be a really tough team next season. With virtually every team going finesse, they're going old school. What they've done is assembled the proper personnel/coaching staff to play smashmouth defense AND offense. Not an easy task.

 

Not sure if you can win a SB like that anymore, but that's clearly their MO.

 

Tyrod Taylor Reunion?  

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17 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

The issue with Roman is - its more complex than maybe it needs to be?  Tons of formations, tons of running plays - all this means is it tends to take longer to get plays in.  This gets you to the line late... this makes it harder to set protection, use pre-snap motion, and even get the snap off in time.  It wasn't just Tyrod, he had the same problems in SF.  It's like the opposite of mcvay - who wants you lined up while he's still in the headset.  

 

If he can clean up that aspect of his game-calling i think he'll do just fine.  His offense is tailor made for LJ.  The 3rd read is like... always to run.  You have a high sack rate but tend to actually not lose a ton of yards on the sacks.  Take some deep shots - lots of hitches and out routes.  Easy reads - its there or it isn't.  If it isn't, RUN.

 

Tyrod Taylor Reunion?  

You know what? Naaaaaah. I like Tyrod, but his starting days are over. I will say he wouldn't have given the ball up like LJ!

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36 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

You know what? Naaaaaah. I like Tyrod, but his starting days are over. I will say he wouldn't have given the ball up like LJ!


I meant as LJ's backup.  Familiar with the Roman offense. Probably an upgrade over RG3 at this point with mobility.


Started his career there too.  

Edited by dneveu
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