John Wawrow on the QB situation

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I just read the thread (including his responses) and while I woudn't say John is outright "defending" the process, he does come across to me at least as someone who, by asking repeatedly for people to (I'm paraphrasing) "tell me what YOU would do," is sorta-kinda defending the process. He dismisses out of hand the idea of keeping Taylor, which was not an impossibility even if they didn't restructure (caps can ALWAYS be manipulated). Is his position defensible? Yes -- we did get a solid pick for Taylor and we avoided a $16 million cap hit. We also didn't know that McCarron would wash out, and he seemed like a credible backup on signing. But we also have the worst offense in modern league history at present, and it didn't have to be that way. The buck should stop with management when things get this bad. JW avoids that issue, which to me is the heart of the matter. He seems to think it was an impossible situation (apologies if I'm misreading), but I just differ with him on that. A backup who doesn't turn the ball over much and makes the running game look better (as we're all realizing now) is a moderately valuable asset who can prevent you from losing. Sorry to harp on a point. I'm a fan of JW's work and just mildly disagree with him on this issue.  
 

Taylor was as much in the plans of this regime as he is now in the plans for Cleveland. It doesn't matter where TT plays he is not a franchise qb and never will be. That is now a dead issue for us and for Cleveland. 

2 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/6/1/17415246/what-is-an-nfl-rebuild-anyway-seahawks-browns-cardinals-astros

 

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/6/1/17415246/what-is-an-nfl-rebuild-anyway-seahawks-browns-cardinals-astros

If you want to give me a summary of the link I will respond. I'm not reading that long link. 

[nedboy7]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Taylor was as much in the plans of this regime as he is now in the plans for Cleveland. It doesn't matter where TT plays he is not a franchise qb and never will be. That is now a dead issue for us and for Cleveland. 

If you want to give me a summary of the link I will respond. I'm not reading that long link. 

 

Cant summarize a short article. Is that considered long now?  It talks bout the BS behind the word rebuild. 

[dave mcbride]

5 minutes ago, GG said:

 

You are addressing the latter portion of the tweets, after jw got sucked into the discussion of what options were available.  Even on that, he threw a bone out.

 

The main crux of the point, and counter to the polite Canadian nature, was jw taking a rightful shot at the whiny reporters who don't have the courage to ask the hard questions when they are in the prime position to ask the hard questions.  

 

If you have a pen or a microphone and you slam the organization for their management of the team, you should have enough of a backbone to ask those questions directly. 

That's a fair point. I'm not at those press conferences, so I have no idea.

[Búfalo Blanco]

Wawrow brings up great points concerning the choices this offseason... Keenum, $36 million, $25 million guaranteed over 2 years. He’s really tearing it up for that, isn’t he..? I’d have been fine keeping Tyrod one more year.. But at what? 16-18 million, most if not totally guaranteed..? He also brought a 3rd which then helped the move up to get Allen, correct? Bridgewater was not allowing physicals after his major injury? Kaepernick? I mean, besides the baggage he opted out of his contract in SF and turned down Denver? And who the hell says he’d have chosen Buffalo after those two gigs? Who else...? Matt Moore? Trade for Eli..? It takes 2 to tango and who knows what the trade price would be with other front offices for various QBs. The armchair GMs think they’ve got this stuff figured out easily... Despite their massive egos, they don’t.

[dave mcbride]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Taylor was as much in the plans of this regime as he is now in the plans for Cleveland. It doesn't matter where TT plays he is not a franchise qb and never will be. That is now a dead issue for us and for Cleveland. 

If you want to give me a summary of the link I will respond. I'm not reading that long link. 

I think it's pretty clear by now that a competent backup is a very valuable asset in the NFL, especially if you're going with a raw rookie qb from a small-time program and with an injury history. It's not about the "being the man" going forward with regard to Taylor, which was never the issue. It's about not fielding the worst offense in modern NFL history. It astounds me that some people haven't woken up to how bad it all is and instead talk about cap numbers and "the future." 

[Reed83HOF]

11 minutes ago, Búfalo Blanco said:

Wawrow brings up great points concerning the choices this offseason... Keenum, $36 million, $25 million guaranteed over 2 years. He’s really tearing it up for that, isn’t he..? I’d have been fine keeping Tyrod one more year.. But at what? 16-18 million, most if not totally guaranteed..? He also brought a 3rd which then helped the move up to get Allen, correct? Bridgewater was not allowing physicals after his major injury? Kaepernick? I mean, besides the baggage he opted out of his contract in SF and turned down Denver? And who the hell says he’d have chosen Buffalo after those two gigs? Who else...? Matt Moore? Trade for Eli..? It takes 2 to tango and who knows what the trade price would be with other front offices for various QBs. The armchair GMs think they’ve got this stuff figured out easily... Despite their massive egos, they don’t.

 

Fitz

1- year $3.3 million with the Bucs signed on March 10 2018

[Coach Tuesday]

36 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I just read the thread (including his responses) and while I woudn't say John is outright "defending" the process, he does come across to me at least as someone who, by asking repeatedly for people to (I'm paraphrasing) "tell me what YOU would do," is sorta-kinda defending the process. He dismisses out of hand the idea of keeping Taylor, which was not an impossibility even if they didn't restructure (caps can ALWAYS be manipulated). Is his position defensible? Yes -- we did get a solid pick for Taylor and we avoided a $16 million cap hit. We also didn't know that McCarron would wash out, and he seemed like a credible backup on signing. But we also have the worst offense in modern league history at present, and it didn't have to be that way. The buck should stop with management when things get this bad. JW avoids that issue, which to me is the heart of the matter. He seems to think it was an impossible situation (apologies if I'm misreading), but I just differ with him on that. A backup who doesn't turn the ball over much and makes the running game look better (as we're all realizing now) is a moderately valuable asset who can prevent you from losing. Sorry to harp on a point. I'm a fan of JW's work and just mildly disagree with him on this issue.  
 

 

Yes.  Thank you.

[BringBackOrton]

On 11/1/2018 at 7:35 PM, BringBackOrton said:

I think Wawrow is saying the press isn't giving the Bills the chance to defend their decision making process by refusing to actually ask them the question.

 

It's not so much a commentary on the story, but the press' reaction.

 

54 minutes ago, GG said:

That's why this thread is a hilarious hijack.  Par for the tsw course.  

I tried so hard.

[Búfalo Blanco]

27 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Fitz

1- year $3.3 million with the Bucs signed on March 10 2018

Really? You think Fitz would want to come back to Buffalo after how he was treated here? What makes you think he’d have signed? And the contract would have been higher if he’d been brought back as the starter. 

[K-9]

On 11/2/2018 at 1:41 PM, Gugny said:

 

"So far this season, the Bills’ three quarterbacks have combined to throw just three touchdown passes and 13 interceptions. The season is half over, so the Bills are on pace to finish with six touchdown passes and 26 interceptions. That is simply, unbelievably, awful."

 

I like to think of it as the season is half begun.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

I think it's pretty clear by now that a competent backup is a very valuable asset in the NFL, especially if you're going with a raw rookie qb from a small-time program and with an injury history. It's not about the "being the man" going forward with regard to Taylor, which was never the issue. It's about not fielding the worst offense in modern NFL history. It astounds me that some people haven't woken up to how bad it all is and instead talk about cap numbers and "the future." 

I don't need you to tell me how bad the offense. It's obvious to all. Taylor was not in the plans for this regime as a starter or backup. He is a dead issue. So I don't know what the point is in bringing him in this discussion. Beane has been clear that he made a misjudgment in not bringing in Derek Anderson sooner after the trade of McCarron. But in the grand scheme of things whether we are talking about Peterman, McCarron or Anderson or whoever mediocre qb it really doesn't matter. Josh Allen and how he develops is the consequential issue and the rest of the action around the qb position is unadulterated BS. 

 

I submit that not having a credible backup on hand when we should have will actually in the long run work out better for this franchise because it gave the organization an opportunity to play him. Of course he is going to struggle but for next year his earlier than expected playing time will I believe enhance more than detract from his development. 

 

You and others are trying to look back and come up with reasons why this season has been such a failure. What you don't want to admit is that what is playing out (to a major extent) was inevitable. I agree with the tough decision to absorb the cap hit in one year. It certainly had painful consequences related to the talent on the roster for this year. But next year, and the year after, this team is in a good position to add more talent sooner rather than later. 

 

If you want to strive for mediocrity then support continuing on with the incremental approach that has been done here for a long time. I'm aware that it is painful to digest but I would rather take the bad medicine in one gulp than stretch it out. If you can't handle this gruesome process for the short term then I recommend that you take a break and wait for the better times. 

 

 

1 hour ago, nedboy7 said:

 

Cant summarize a short article. Is that considered long now?  It talks bout the BS behind the word rebuild. 

I'm simply not interested in reading that article. 

 

Whether you want to admit it the Bills are rebuilding. That's the reality. 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by JohnC

[dave mcbride]

28 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I don't need you to tell me how bad the offense. It's obvious to all. Taylor was not in the plans for this regime as a starter or backup. He is a dead issue. So I don't know what the point is in bringing him in this discussion. Beane has been clear that he made a misjudgment in not bringing in Derek Anderson sooner after the trade of McCarron. But in the grand scheme of things whether we are talking about Peterman, McCarron or Anderson or whoever mediocre qb it really doesn't matter. Josh Allen and how he develops is the consequential issue and the rest of the action around the qb position is unadulterated BS. 

 

I submit that not having a credible backup on hand when we should have will actually in the long run work out better for this franchise because it gave the organization an opportunity to play him. Of course he is going to struggle but for next year his earlier than expected playing time will I believe enhance more than detract from his development. 

 

You and others are trying to look back and come up with reasons why this season has been such a failure. What you don't want to admit is that what is playing out (to a major extent) was inevitable. I agree with the tough decision to absorb the cap hit in one year. It certainly had painful consequences related to the talent on the roster for this year. But next year, and the year after, this team is in a good position to add more talent sooner rather than later. 

 

If you want to strive for mediocrity then support continuing on with the incremental approach that has been done here for a long time. I'm aware that it is painful to digest but I would rather take the bad medicine in one gulp than stretch it out. If you can't handle this gruesome process for the short term then I recommend that you take a break and wait for the better times. 

 

 

 

I believe -- and have long believed -- that they should have kept Taylor as an insurance policy. The fact that they believed otherwise only tells me that they were wrong, not that my thinking is irrelevant. Based on recent track, Taylor is a much better player than Derek Anderson too. I also believe that bottoming out to the deepest abyssal level is not a recipe for success going forward. As I've said elsewhere, bad often stays bad if it gets bad enough. And then at a certain point, it's on to new management.  And -- no offense -- I'm going to ignore your advice. I'm in for the long haul no matter what happens. 

Edited November 5, 2018 by dave mcbride

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Fitz

1- year $3.3 million with the Bucs signed on March 10 2018

Now THAT ends up looking like a good investment!

[Reed83HOF]

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Now THAT ends up looking like a good investment!

A little bit huh? He would have been perfect for a rookie QB, knew how to make the reads, change he plays etc - he just didn't have the arm...I am sure he would have no problem grooming rookie either. 

[BADOLBILZ]

18 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I believe -- and have long believed -- that they should have kept Taylor as an insurance policy. The fact that they believed otherwise only tells me that they were wrong, not that my thinking is irrelevant. Based on recent track, Taylor is a much better player than Derek Anderson too. I also believe that bottoming out to the deepest abyssal level is not a recipe for success going forward. As I've said elsewhere, bad often stays bad if it gets bad enough. And then at a certain point, it's on to new management.  And -- no offense -- I'm going to ignore your advice. I'm in for the long haul no matter what happens. 

 

Do people forget that we had a 4-12 tank team to begin this decade in 2010?   Then 6-10 teams in 2011 and 2012?

 

Draft pick positioning has not been why they haven't ascended into the elite.

 

Poor decisions hiring coaches and at the QB position are why they've wallowed in mediocrity...........and those don't just stop happening because you get REALLY bad.

 

 

[nedboy7]

49 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I don't need you to tell me how bad the offense. It's obvious to all. Taylor was not in the plans for this regime as a starter or backup. He is a dead issue. So I don't know what the point is in bringing him in this discussion. Beane has been clear that he made a misjudgment in not bringing in Derek Anderson sooner after the trade of McCarron. But in the grand scheme of things whether we are talking about Peterman, McCarron or Anderson or whoever mediocre qb it really doesn't matter. Josh Allen and how he develops is the consequential issue and the rest of the action around the qb position is unadulterated BS. 

 

I submit that not having a credible backup on hand when we should have will actually in the long run work out better for this franchise because it gave the organization an opportunity to play him. Of course he is going to struggle but for next year his earlier than expected playing time will I believe enhance more than detract from his development. 

 

You and others are trying to look back and come up with reasons why this season has been such a failure. What you don't want to admit is that what is playing out (to a major extent) was inevitable. I agree with the tough decision to absorb the cap hit in one year. It certainly had painful consequences related to the talent on the roster for this year. But next year, and the year after, this team is in a good position to add more talent sooner rather than later. 

 

If you want to strive for mediocrity then support continuing on with the incremental approach that has been done here for a long time. I'm aware that it is painful to digest but I would rather take the bad medicine in one gulp than stretch it out. If you can't handle this gruesome process for the short term then I recommend that you take a break and wait for the better times. 

 

 

I'm simply not interested in reading that article. 

 

Whether you want to admit it the Bills are rebuilding. That's the reality. 

 

 

 

Here is an interesting article about how the concept of rebuilding is BS 

 

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/6/1/17415246/what-is-an-nfl-rebuild-anyway-seahawks-browns-cardinals-astros

[John from Riverside]

51 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I don't need you to tell me how bad the offense. It's obvious to all. Taylor was not in the plans for this regime as a starter or backup. He is a dead issue. So I don't know what the point is in bringing him in this discussion. Beane has been clear that he made a misjudgment in not bringing in Derek Anderson sooner after the trade of McCarron. But in the grand scheme of things whether we are talking about Peterman, McCarron or Anderson or whoever mediocre qb it really doesn't matter. Josh Allen and how he develops is the consequential issue and the rest of the action around the qb position is unadulterated BS. 

 

I submit that not having a credible backup on hand when we should have will actually in the long run work out better for this franchise because it gave the organization an opportunity to play him. Of course he is going to struggle but for next year his earlier than expected playing time will I believe enhance more than detract from his development. 

 

You and others are trying to look back and come up with reasons why this season has been such a failure. What you don't want to admit is that what is playing out (to a major extent) was inevitable. I agree with the tough decision to absorb the cap hit in one year. It certainly had painful consequences related to the talent on the roster for this year. But next year, and the year after, this team is in a good position to add more talent sooner rather than later. 

 

If you want to strive for mediocrity then support continuing on with the incremental approach that has been done here for a long time. I'm aware that it is painful to digest but I would rather take the bad medicine in one gulp than stretch it out. If you can't handle this gruesome process for the short term then I recommend that you take a break and wait for the better times. 

 

 

I'm simply not interested in reading that article. 

 

Whether you want to admit it the Bills are rebuilding. That's the reality. 

 

 

Shoop on WGR just said the bills are not rebiulding......so it must be so

[nedboy7]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

Shoop on WGR just said the bills are not rebiulding......so it must be so

 

Here is a different opinion. 

 

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/6/1/17415246/what-is-an-nfl-rebuild-anyway-seahawks-browns-cardinals-astros

Edited November 5, 2018 by nedboy7

[JohnC]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

Shoop on WGR just said the bills are not rebiulding......so it must be so

Shoop admits that he doesn't even like football. I'm ever more confident in my position. 

31 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I believe -- and have long believed -- that they should have kept Taylor as an insurance policy. The fact that they believed otherwise only tells me that they were wrong, not that my thinking is irrelevant. Based on recent track, Taylor is a much better player than Derek Anderson too. I also believe that bottoming out to the deepest abyssal level is not a recipe for success going forward. As I've said elsewhere, bad often stays bad if it gets bad enough. And then at a certain point, it's on to new management.  And -- no offense -- I'm going to ignore your advice. I'm in for the long haul no matter what happens. 

The Bills moved on from TT just as the Brown moved on from him. The only difference is that they came to a quicker decision. It's a dead issue. 

[Bill from NYC]

On ‎11‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 6:02 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Do people forget that we had a 4-12 tank team to begin this decade in 2010?   Then 6-10 teams in 2011 and 2012?

 

Draft pick positioning has not been why they haven't ascended into the elite.

 

Poor decisions hiring coaches and at the QB position are why they've wallowed in mediocrity...........and those don't just stop happening because you get REALLY bad.

 

 

I know that they are heavily tied into the qb position, but I want to toss piss poor drafts into the equation. For decades they have been passing on good to even great players at positions of need and drafting secondary and running backs, many of whom were too small and/or injured.