[reopened. behave your fine selves] Kelvin Benjamin criticizes time with Panthers, Cam Newton

[Lfod]

1 hour ago, westside said:

I respectfully disagree. All he had to say, we spoke about it, it's behind us, etc, etc...

 

I like McDermott, I just think he could have handled it better. Just my opinion. 

It's close to the season. Kelvin Benjamin is an important peace to the team. McDermott probably told him to man up and get himself together in private and waved it off as dealt with publicly. 

 

It's probably the best that whatever happened between McDermott and Benjamin over what happened stays between them and he does put it behind the team. 

 

I'm not trying to justify what happened. Just that it doesn't need a judge or jury. Just a guy mouthing off in a brutal sport. 

[BringBackOrton]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Read the Manziel thread here.  There are good number of fans, more than they should be, rooting hard for the guy.  Barstool sports (I know, I know) has a whole platform for a guy who has been accused of domestic violence.  He gets a little too much love for a guy with his past. 

 

And clearly, Newton has some diva issues and hasn’t been the best leader.  But his resume, minus a SB win, is extremely impressive. Yet, he seems to take a lot of crap.  And again, I never really heard people get on Rodgers for his celebrations.  And when Brady screams at his coaches, it’s his “passion to win.”  If Newton does that, he’s vilified.  

 

Either way, Newton would have been amazing here and KB looks like a bitter ex.

You can root for Manziel without thinking he was treated unfairly, what kind of nonsense is that?

 

Who has higher NFL jersey sales this year? Cam or Manziel?

 

Yeah, no one on TBD EVER calls Brady a whiny B word when he screams on the sideline. DC Tom calls him a great leader every Sunday.

 

Its time to step out of that bubble that you’ve built for yourself.

Edited August 7, 2018 by BringBackOrton

[NoSaint]

11 hours ago, CLTbills said:

I really don't like the race card here.

In all honesty, I'm pretty positive just as many (if not more) hate Manziel as hate Cam.

 

As ones had drug, domestic abuse issues, etc... 

 

while the other is mostly just brash in his TD celebrations on his way to the super bowl in an mvp caliber season....

 

 

That we are comparing the two as apples to apples miiiiight give some credence to us being harder on the black guy. Not everyone but almost certainly some.

 

11 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Who has higher NFL jersey sales this year? Cam or Manziel?

 

Its time to step out of that bubble that you’ve built for yourself.

 

As Johnny’s been out of the league for years now... maybe not the best metric? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

53 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

As ones had drug, domestic abuse issues, etc... 

while the other is mostly just brash in his TD celebrations on his way to the super bowl in an mvp caliber season....

That we are comparing the two as apples to apples miiiiight give some credence to us being harder on the black guy. Not everyone but almost certainly some.

As Johnny’s been out of the league for years now... maybe not the best metric? 

 

Whoa whoa whoa coming late to the party here Saint.

 

No “we” is comparing Manzeil and Newton as “apples to apples”

An assertion was made that many many people support Manziel and think he was treated unfairly vs. not so much on Cam

 

Several of us think that’s weak sauce as a comparison - that first of all, there aren’t really all these people exculpating Mr Bust Manziel, many many people said he was a head case before he was drafted and many more joined the party when it became clear that he was, in fact, a head case.

 

In any case, someone claiming legions of Manziel supporters prove Cam gets a raw deal ‘cuz race, and others responding to it saying “no, actually, where are these legions and it proves no such thing” does not constitute an “apples to apples” comparison that proves the initial assertion.

 

It remains a crap metric

 

I think the germaine point is that there are a number of successful black QB who are and have in past been treated with respect and given their propers eg Wilson etc (prev post)

Maybe if Cam doesn’t get his propers or gets criticized for his sideline/media behavior...it’s not because he’s black, it’s because his behaviors merit criticism

 

You may disagree on both points, that’s fine, but the point is it’s at best a matter for debate, because he does behave in a way that is criticized in other players - Jay Cutler as I recall got torn to shreds for his sideline demeanor during the Bears playoff loss after he injured his knee, Brady is widely criticized as a whiney beotch and so forth

[Lfod]

44 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Whoa whoa whoa coming late to the party here Saint.

 

No “we” is comparing Manzeil and Newton as “apples to apples”

An assertion was made that many many people support Manziel and think he was treated unfairly vs. not so much on Cam

 

Several of us think that’s weak sauce as a comparison - that first of all, there aren’t really all these people exculpating Mr Bust Manziel, many many people said he was a head case before he was drafted and many more joined the party when it became clear that he was, in fact, a head case.

 

In any case, someone claiming legions of Manziel supporters prove Cam gets a raw deal ‘cuz race, and others responding to it saying “no, actually, where are these legions and it proves no such thing” does not constitute an “apples to apples” comparison that proves the initial assertion.

 

It remains a crap metric

 

I think the germaine point is that there are a number of successful black QB who are and have in past been treated with respect and given their propers eg Wilson etc (prev post)

Maybe if Cam doesn’t get his propers or gets criticized for his sideline/media behavior...it’s not because he’s black, it’s because his behaviors merit criticism

 

You may disagree on both points, that’s fine, but the point is it’s at best a matter for debate, because he does behave in a way that is criticized in other players - Jay Cutler as I recall got torn to shreds for his sideline demeanor during the Bears playoff loss after he injured his knee, Brady is widely criticized as a whiney beotch and so forth

Please don't ban me...

Edited August 7, 2018 by Lfod

[NoSaint]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Whoa whoa whoa coming late to the party here Saint.

 

No “we” is comparing Manzeil and Newton as “apples to apples”

An assertion was made that many many people support Manziel and think he was treated unfairly vs. not so much on Cam

 

Several of us think that’s weak sauce as a comparison - that first of all, there aren’t really all these people exculpating Mr Bust Manziel, many many people said he was a head case before he was drafted and many more joined the party when it became clear that he was, in fact, a head case.

 

In any case, someone claiming legions of Manziel supporters prove Cam gets a raw deal ‘cuz race, and others responding to it saying “no, actually, where are these legions and it proves no such thing” does not constitute an “apples to apples” comparison that proves the initial assertion.

 

It remains a crap metric

 

I think the germaine point is that there are a number of successful black QB who are and have in past been treated with respect and given their propers eg Wilson etc (prev post)

Maybe if Cam doesn’t get his propers or gets criticized for his sideline/media behavior...it’s not because he’s black, it’s because his behaviors merit criticism

 

You may disagree on both points, that’s fine, but the point is it’s at best a matter for debate, because he does behave in a way that is criticized in other players - Jay Cutler as I recall got torn to shreds for his sideline demeanor during the Bears playoff loss after he injured his knee, Brady is widely criticized as a whiney beotch and so forth

 

While you may handle the conversation responsibly... there are those that certainly do not. 

 

while race may not be a factor for you - I have a hard time believing it’s not a major factor for some and an incremental issue (probably even total subconsciously) for many. 

 

Cams brash and deserves some comments for sure. I’m not saying he’s perfect. I do think the rubric for scoring black QBs is generally a little harsher than their counterparts though.

[BringBackOrton]

10 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

As ones had drug, domestic abuse issues, etc... 

 

while the other is mostly just brash in his TD celebrations on his way to the super bowl in an mvp caliber season....

 

 

That we are comparing the two as apples to apples miiiiight give some credence to us being harder on the black guy. Not everyone but almost certainly some.

 

 

As Johnny’s been out of the league for years now... maybe not the best metric? 

Do you really think it’s possible there are more Johnny Football fans than Cam Newton fans in the USA?

[bobobonators]

Cam is a below average passer, with great arm strength, and great size/athleticism. It’s hard to disagree with KB’s critique. Cam at times is wildly inaccurate. Even Cam must know this.

 

Josh Allen might be our Cam (minus the post game antics). 

[without a drought]

Cam is still a better QB than Kelvin is a WR, no matter which way you look at this.

[Big Turk]

Strange timing for sure but i guess that's why media members get paid the big bucks to rattle the beehive and see if any bees swarm

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

While you may handle the conversation responsibly... there are those that certainly do not. 

 

while race may not be a factor for you - I have a hard time believing it’s not a major factor for some and an incremental issue (probably even total subconsciously) for many. 

 

Cams brash and deserves some comments for sure. I’m not saying he’s perfect. I do think the rubric for scoring black QBs is generally a little harsher than their counterparts though.

Agreed.  Of course, it’s not 100% race based.  But I think there are some people here who are criticizing Cam that would absolutely love Allen if he had Cam’s career and had his personality.  They would love the farm boy’s swagger.  

[Cripple Creek]

On 8/6/2018 at 6:21 AM, Chandler#81 said:

I wanna be like you when I grow up.?

You don’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell, bucko.

[BillsFan17]

 

[BringBackOrton]

35 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Agreed.  Of course, it’s not 100% race based.  But I think there are some people here who are criticizing Cam that would absolutely love Allen if he had Cam’s career and had his personality.  They would love the farm boy’s swagger.  

Why?

 

How do you know the people who still root for Johnny don’t like Cam?

[NoSaint]

53 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Why?

 

How do you know the people who still root for Johnny don’t like Cam?

It’s not all but there’s certainly some.

 

as it turns out, you can see people’s posts on both topics and notice some overlap. It’s not like opinions are top secret here

[BringBackOrton]

51 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

It’s not all but there’s certainly some.

 

as it turns out, you can see people’s posts on both topics and notice some overlap. It’s not like opinions are top secret here

Okay, let's do that!  Let's pull all the "positive" comments about Manziel and cross reference them.  Methinks you might be surprised how much confirmation bias is present in your "TBD is filled with hypocritical racists who love JFF and hate Cam" take.

 

Exhibit A:  The people who said positive things about Johnny Manziel in the COMEBACKSZN thread.  Keep in mind this is a 202 reply thread and I dug up 6 total posts.

On 5/19/2018 at 2:48 PM, ALF said:

I hope he does well in the CFL  and  keeps his life together. Hamilton not far from Buffalo . 

 

Side note Tim Tebow playing for Binghamton, NY Rumble Ponies AA baseball.

On 5/19/2018 at 11:03 AM, no name said:

I have nothing against the kid and glad he is able to get back on the field, cfl or otherwise. keep pushing forward kid

 

On 5/19/2018 at 3:55 PM, SNICE said:

Hope he does well but he does not seem all that excited. Makes you wonder if he really has his heart in it.  

 

On 7/31/2018 at 9:39 PM, The Dean said:

 

 

The Senator is ALIVE! Welcome back, my friend.

 

I have to say, I'm shocked you were never a Johnny Football fan, as he fits your typical fan-boy profile. Flashy, lot's of hype. Air-raid offense guy (let's not forget your deep love affair with Mike Leach). But if so, good for you. You finally got a QB evaluation right.

 

I was never a fan. But I hope he does well personally, and professionally if that's the way it works out. I don't expect to see him playing in the NFL again, but who knows? 

 

And wasn't Jeff Garcia "Doug Flutie 2.0"? Or is he not qualified because he didn't start in the NFL?  Or because he was a WAY better QB than Flutie could have dreamed of being?

 

 

On 5/19/2018 at 11:15 AM, jr1 said:

hope it works out for him

 

On 8/4/2018 at 8:25 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

I love JFF. Last night was tough. He looked like a rich man’s Peterman.  There were mistakes everywhere. It was sad.

 

Exhibit B: What those people said about Cam in this thread 

 

(crickets)

 

NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE COMMENTED ON CAM NEWTON IN THIS THREAD IN ANY WAY.  YOUR BOOGIE MAN IS DEAD.  @C.Biscuit97 COME HERE AND TAKE YOUR NOOGIE.  THE "HYPOCRITE RACIST" MYTH DIES TODAY.

Edited August 7, 2018 by BringBackOrton

[Rocky Landing]

3 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

Okay, let's do that!  Let's pull all the "positive" comments about Manziel and cross reference them.  Methinks you might be surprised how much confirmation bias is present in your "TBD is filled with hypocritical racists who love JFF and hate Cam" take.

 

Exhibit A:  The people who said positive things about Johnny Manziel in the COMEBACKSZN thread.  Keep in mind this is a 202 reply thread and I dug up 6 total posts.

 

 

 

 

 

Exhibit B: What those people said about Cam in this thread 

 

(crickets)

 

NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE COMMENTED ON CAM NEWTON IN THIS THREAD IN ANY WAY.  YOUR BOOGIE MAN IS DEAD.  @C.Biscuit97 COME HERE AND TAKE YOUR NOOGIE.  THE "HYPOCRITE RACIST" MYTH DIES TODAY.

Is this a joke?

[BringBackOrton]

32 minutes ago, Rocky Landing said:

Is this a joke?

I wish.

[Wayne Arnold]

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Agreed.  Of course, it’s not 100% race based.  But I think there are some people here who are criticizing Cam that would absolutely love Allen if he had Cam’s career and had his personality.  They would love the farm boy’s swagger.  

 

I don't understand this kind of hypothetical at all.  Since Allen appears to have his own personality, and also to have achieved high-level Crash Davis Cliche Mastery, we'll never ever get to do that experiment.  We know that before he busted out, Johnny Manziel had both fans who loved his swagger, and harsh critics.  Baker Mayfield has both fans who love his swagger, and harsh critics.  Josh Rosen has both fans who admire his outspokenness, and harsh critics.  I think Cam Newton has both fans who love him, love his swagger, and harsh critics. 

 

So I tend to think it has more to do with a certain element of brashness and swagger inspiring controversy than with race per se.  YMMV.

 

Is some of the Cam criticism harsher because of his race, perhaps so, but like I've said before - other QB who have done some similar sideline things (and are white - see Cutler, Jay) have been harshly criticized.  So it seems pretty simplistic to attribute it all to race.

 

Then there's this: When I was doing a QB success by draft position study this spring, I used completion percentage, TD/INT ratio, and YPA as my objective markers for success.   Totally objective markers that I had previously found to be correlated to winning (overall yardage or YPG were not, so I did not use them).  Cam Newton did not get flagged as a success by the rather lax criteria I used, because of his low completion percentage. 

 

So I understand that Cam's game, objectively and on its own merits, has aspects that can be critiqued, and again, simplistic to attribute it all to race.

 

 

3 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

 

Oooh, harsh!  Funny though.

 

11 hours ago, NoSaint said:

It’s not all but there’s certainly some.

 

as it turns out, you can see people’s posts on both topics and notice some overlap. It’s not like opinions are top secret here

 

Looks like BringBackOrton did the experiment and couldn't find said overlap. 

You got any data to rebut?