Helsinki Summit

[keepthefaith]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

I disagree about bigger fish to fry.  We are talking about the sovereignty of our country and our electoral system.  If that falls into question the whole basis for our system of government comes into question.

 

Our electoral system wasn't impacted by this.  It's certainly an egregious crime that was committed but we really don't know yet who was responsible and we don't want it to continue.  Further efforts by any nation to do something similar should result in a strong response if we have airtight evidence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Deranged Rhino]

2 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:

 

So, it never happened? Trump didn't take Putin's word for it? Trump said nothing that was concerning to you?  Maybe even admit Trump made a mistake? Do you even know why Republicans are upset?

 

 

 

You made the statement, I asked you to provide a source for the words you attributed to Trump. And you couldn't. That's on you, Max. Not me. You're the one pushing hyperbole as fact and running away from any serious attempts to discuss the topic. That makes you a dishonest asshat. 

 

And now your tact is to question whether I understand a topic I've been researching and covering for over two years... that's not going to go well for you, Max. 

[Max Fischer]

Senator Bob Corker Tenn.

[Putin] gained a tremendous amount. Here he has been ostracized on the world stage. … It was almost an approval, if you will, a public approval by the greatest nation on earth towards him. … I would guess he's having caviar right now.

 

Senator Jeff Flake Ariz.

I never thought I would see the day when our American President would stand on the stage with the Russian President and place blame on the United States for Russian aggression. This is shameful.

 

Senator Susan Collins Me.

The president’s statements today in Helsinki demonstrate his continued refusal to accept the unanimous conclusions of U.S. intelligence leaders and the bipartisan findings of the Senate Intelligence Committee. This position is untenable and at odds with the forceful response this moment demands.

 

Senator Lindsey Graham S.C.

If it were me, I’d check the soccer ball for listening devices and never allow it in the White House.

 

Senator Charles E. Grassley Iowa

President Trump missed an opportunity to publicly press President Putin on whether he would agree to extradite the defendants to the United States to answer the allegations in court.

 

Senator John McCain Ariz.

No prior president has ever abased himself more abjectly before a tyrant.

 

Senator Rob Portman Ohio

The president’s comments in today’s press conference were troubling. He failed to stand up to Vladimir Putin on some of the most critical security issues facing our country and our allies.

 

Senator Tim Scott S.C.

As Americans, we stand up for our interests and values abroad; but I fear today was a step backwards.

 

Senator Ben Sasse Neb.

This is bizarre and flat-out wrong. The United States is not to blame. America wants a good relationship with the Russian people but Vladimir Putin and his thugs are responsible for Soviet-style aggression. When the president plays these moral equivalence games, he gives Putin a propaganda win he desperately needs.

 

Senator Patrick J. Toomey Pa.

.@POTUS' blindness to Putin’s hostile acts against the US and our allies—election meddling included—is very troubling.

 

Senator Jerry Moran Kan.

The president missed an opportunity to publicly condemn Russia for election interference or offer strong support for the NATO alliance. The problem with our relationship is not American actions but rather Russia’s duplicitous behavior.

 

Senator Lisa Murkowski Alaska

Sadly President Trump did not defend America to the Russian president, and for the world to see. Instead, what I saw today was not “America First,” it was simply a sad diminishment of our great nation.

 

Senator Dan Sullivan Alaska

I disagree w/ President’s remarks following Helsinki Summit. Specifically, do I believe the professional and patriotic men and women of our intelligence community, including the Director of National Intelligence, or a mafia regime leader like Putin? It’s not even a close call.

 

Rep. Paul D. Ryan Wis. 1st

Speaker of the House

The president must appreciate that Russia is not our ally.

 

Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers Wash. 5th

Republican Conference Chairwoman

Russia is not a friend to the United States or our allies. There’s no question that they meddled in our election, and all evidence points to Putin’s direct involvement. In order to put America first, the president must hold Russia accountable for their adversarial actions and their continued efforts to undermine our democratic institutions.

 

Rep. Ed Royce Calif. 39th

Chairman, Foreign Affairs Committee

I disagree with the president’s comments. There is simply no comparing the actions of the United States and Vladimir Putin.

 

Rep. Robert W. Goodlatte Va. 6th

Chairman, Judiciary Committee

U.S. intelligence agencies have confirmed Russia’s actions, and the evidence is plentiful. Today’s summit was an opportunity to forcefully address this growing threat directly with President Putin. I am dismayed that we did not see that.

[Deranged Rhino]

None of those quotes support the statement you made (because they're not from the transcript of the presser). 

 

Dishonesty isn't a good look on you, Max. 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, keepthefaith said:

 

Our electoral system wasn't impacted by this.  It's certainly an egregious crime that was committed but we really don't know yet who was responsible and we don't want it to continue.  Further efforts by any nation to do something similar should result in a strong response if we have airtight evidence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We don't know the exact impact of the Russians on the election.  And it doesn't matter.  What matters is they tried.

[Deranged Rhino]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

We don't know the exact impact of the Russians on the election.  And it doesn't matter.  What matters is they tried.

 

What do you suggest our response should be?

 

We've expelled dozens of diplomats in response, placed crippling sanctions on the individuals directly responsible for the funding and execution of the operation, armed the Ukrainians, annihilated 300 Russian mercenaries in Syria, broken the Russian influence hold over the DPRK and (soon) Iran, gotten NATO to up its defense spending against Russia... 

 

Should there be even more extreme measures taken?  

[oldmanfan]

10 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

And as we discussed the other day, simultaneously the NSA was discovering an illegal political spying ring operating inside the FBI and DOJ for the purposes of spying on the political opposition of the administration. 

 

That too threatens the entire basis of our republic by robbing the people of their voice in the process. 

 

Yet... we're only talking about one of those events. Why?

I don't necessarily agree with your premise.  And the reason why the Russian thing requires investigation is a foreign adversary has potentially committed an act of war against us 

[Deranged Rhino]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

I don't necessarily agree with your premise.  And the reason why the Russian thing requires investigation is a foreign adversary has potentially committed an act of war against us 

 

The thing is, my premise has 10x the evidence to back it than the Russian narrative has. That's a problem if we're being neutral and objective about this. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Deranged Rhino said:

 

What do you suggest our response should be?

 

We've expelled dozens of diplomats in response, placed crippling sanctions on the individuals directly responsible for the funding and execution of the operation, armed the Ukrainians, annihilated 300 Russian mercenaries in Syria, broken the Russian influence hold over the DPRK and (soon) Iran, gotten NATO to up its defense spending against Russia... 

 

Should there be even more extreme measures taken?  

None of the above necessarily affect what was done.  We need to cripple their cyber capability.  How that would be done I leave to experts.

[TakeYouToTasker]

48 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Is our country completely clean?  No.  Should we stand with our country vs. a murdering dictator?  It's sad that question even needs to be asked of some here.

 

You have become completely unhinged.

 

Why are you blindly trusting unaccountable elements of our intel apparatus who have had such a ridiculously shoddy record of truth telling, and a long history of lying and manipulating the American public to their own ends.

 

You're talking about the same agencies who for years used the Playboy Mansion as a honey-potting chamber, protected pedophiles within our own government, and dosed private unsuspecting citizens with mind altering drugs as part of a mind control study to name only a few well documented cases.

 

You're talking about the same group who lied us into war in Iraq, and gave us the Bay of Pigs.  For Heaven's sake, the individuals who lied us into Iraq are the exact same ones who are now telling you that US intel services are pure as the driven snow.

 

Can you reconcile any of this?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by TakeYouToTasker

[Deranged Rhino]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

None of the above necessarily affect what was done.  We need to cripple their cyber capability.  How that would be done I leave to experts.

 

The only way to do that is through direct acts of war. Which, when talking about the largest nuclear power in the world, is a dangerous gambit to run when there's no smoking gun, is it not? 

 

It's an even more dangerous precedent to set in light of our extensive history of meddling in other elections (like France and Israel just recently). Don't you see the problem with that kind of solution?

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Deranged Rhino said:

 

The thing is, my premise has 10x the evidence to back it than the Russian narrative has. That's a problem if we're being neutral and objective about this. 

I would support investigation into some of the material you've presented.  But you also need to acknowledge when both houses of congress and our intelligence agencies all agree the Russians tried to influence our election that it also deserves complete investigation.

[GG]

7 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

This simply is not true. He has said it could have been China or a 400 lb guy in his basement.   He has indeed cast doubt on the Russians being the perpetrators and did so again yesterday by saying Putin strongly denied it and he sees no reason why they would have. 

 

So in your response to a post that describes the differences in Russian involvement, you still insist on conflating the two.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

5 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

None of those quotes support the statement you made (because they're not from the transcript of the presser). 

 

Dishonesty isn't a good look on you, Max. 

 

Color me shocked...SHOCKED to see the likes of McCain, Flake and Collins on that list.

SHOCKED.

 

Appalled, even.

 

[ALF]

'Putin's poodle:' Newspapers around the world react to Trump-Putin meeting

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/17/europe/trump-putin-summit-newspaper-reaction-intl/index.html

 

catchy new nickname , Trump will love it

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

You have become completely unhinged.

 

Why are you blindly trusting unaccountable elements of our intel apparatus who have had such a ridiculously shoddy record of truth telling, and a long history of lying and manipulating the American public to their own ends.

 

You're talking about the same agencies who for years used the Playboy Mansion as a honey-potting chamber, protected pedophiles within our own government, and dosed private unsuspecting citizens with mind altering drugs as part of a mind control study to name only a few well documented cases.

 

You're talking about the same group who lied us into war in Iraq, and gave us the Bay of Pigs.  For Heaven's sake, the individuals who lied us into Iraq are the exact same ones who are now telling you that US intel services are pure as the driven snow.

 

Can you reconcile any of this?

 

 

 

 

Yes I think our intelligence services are more reliable that Putin.  Yes they make mistakes at times.  But if you honestly think as the president does that Putin should be put on equal footing, at minimum, to our intelligence services then I would say your loyalties are seriously misplaced.

[TakeYouToTasker]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

None of the above necessarily affect what was done.  We need to cripple their cyber capability.  How that would be done I leave to experts.

 

And you expect what?  That the Russians will simply take it?

 

You're suggesting over acts of war to which the Russians will certainly respond.

 

What you're advocating leads directly to this:

 

 

There's no way around it.

 

Is this the world you want to live in?

 

And if it is, why should anyone listen to you?

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, GG said:

 

So in your response to a post that describes the differences in Russian involvement, you still insist on conflating the two.

 

I'm pointing out the fact that Trump has indeed cast doubt on Russian hacking. There is no conflation on my part.  Sit down. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[Deranged Rhino]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

I would support investigation into some of the material you've presented.  But you also need to acknowledge when both houses of congress and our intelligence agencies all agree the Russians tried to influence our election that it also deserves complete investigation.

 

I do acknowledge that fact, very much so. But it's not that simple, and you know it. Everyone - including me - agrees Russia meddled/tried to meddle in our election. Like they've done in every one of our elections this century. This isn't new, and it isn't all that dangerous considering the means in which they attempted to meddle (Facebook and propaganda push). The house and senate committees - let alone all 17 intel agencies - differ WILDLY with one another when it comes to whether or not Russia "hacked" the election or the DCCC/DNC. 

 

Which brings this full circle back to the discussion of the server. The fact it hasn't been examined directly leaves all this open to reasonable doubt. To suggest it's an open and closed case which everyone agrees is inaccurate. 

[IDBillzFan]

3 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

Can you reconcile any of this?

 

Yes. Trump's a poo-poo head and neener-neener.

[Bray Wyatt]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Yes I think our intelligence services are more reliable that Putin.  Yes they make mistakes at times.  But if you honestly think as the president does that Putin should be put on equal footing, at minimum, to our intelligence services then I would say your loyalties are seriously misplaced.

 

Where did he say that?

[Max Fischer]

5 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

None of those quotes support the statement you made (because they're not from the transcript of the presser). 

 

Here's the entire press conference, word for word.  https://www.npr.org/2018/07/16/629462401/transcript-president-trump-and-russian-president-putins-joint-press-conference

 

It's all there.  

 

And if you can't read: 

 

 

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

The only way to do that is through direct acts of war. Which, when talking about the largest nuclear power in the world, is a dangerous gambit to run when there's no smoking gun, is it not? 

 

It's an even more dangerous precedent to set in light of our extensive history of meddling in other elections (like France and Israel just recently). Don't you see the problem with that kind of solution?

No I don't.  I believe they have already committed an act of war by their attempt to affect our elections.  If France or Israel think the same if us they should take actions as well.  They probably don't because in the sum total of things our relationship has more positives than negatives.

[DC Tom]

14 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:

At least you admit you are OK with Putin/Russian electoral interference.  

 

I believe in an open internet, so no, I have no problem with Facebook marketing.

 

The problem isn't "Russians."  The problem is Americans are too stupid to discriminate their news sources.

Just now, oldmanfan said:

No I don't.  I believe they have already committed an act of war by their attempt to affect our elections.  If France or Israel think the same if us they should take actions as well.  They probably don't because in the sum total of things our relationship has more positives than negatives.

 

Dumbest !@#$ing thing I've read today.

[IDBillzFan]

1 minute ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

What you're advocating leads directly to this:

 

 

Is that Boston? Because if that's Boston, I'm cool with it.

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said:

 

I do acknowledge that fact, very much so. But it's not that simple, and you know it. Everyone - including me - agrees Russia meddled/tried to meddle in our election. Like they've done in every one of our elections this century. This isn't new, and it isn't all that dangerous considering the means in which they attempted to meddle (Facebook and propaganda push). The house and senate committees - let alone all 17 intel agencies - differ WILDLY with one another when it comes to whether or not Russia "hacked" the election or the DCCC/DNC. 

 

Which brings this full circle back to the discussion of the server. The fact it hasn't been examined directly leaves all this open to reasonable doubt. To suggest it's an open and closed case which everyone agrees is inaccurate. 

Let Mueller finish his investigation and let the chips fall where they may.

[Deranged Rhino]

2 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:

 

Here's the entire press conference, word for word.  https://www.npr.org/2018/07/16/629462401/transcript-president-trump-and-russian-president-putins-joint-press-conference

 

It's all there.  

 

And if you can't read: 

 

 

 

Funny. I don't see anywhere in the transcript where Trump said these words:

 

2 hours ago, Max Fischer said:

The President of the United States said his administration, congress and the intelligence community are wrong about Russian election interference and Putin is telling the truth.  

 

 

So thank you for admitting that you were lying. 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Deranged Rhino

[DC Tom]

3 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said:

 

And you expect what?  That the Russians will simply take it?

 

You're suggesting over acts of war to which the Russians will certainly respond.

 

What you're advocating leads directly to this:

 

 

There's no way around it.

 

Is this the world you want to live in?

 

It is, because it validates his belief that Donald Trump will start a nuclear war.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, DC Tom said:

 

I believe in an open internet, so no, I have no problem with Facebook marketing.

 

The problem isn't "Russians."  The problem is Americans are too stupid to discriminate their news sources.

 

Dumbest !@#$ing thing I've read today.

Trying to affect the elections is not an act of war?  

[Deranged Rhino]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Let Mueller finish his investigation and let the chips fall where they may.

 

I'm fine with this. But you're advocating Trump doesn't wait, and act now. How is that consistent?

[IDBillzFan]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

No I don't.  I believe they have already committed an act of war by their attempt to affect our elections.  If France or Israel think the same if us they should take actions as well.  They probably don't because in the sum total of things our relationship has more positives than negatives.

 

I think this is a solid 8.

 

Judges?

[oldmanfan]

Just now, DC Tom said:

 

It is, because it validates his belief that Donald Trump will start a nuclear war.

Which I have never said anywhere.  Another stupid comment by you.

Just now, Deranged Rhino said:

 

I'm fine with this. But you're advocating Trump doesn't wait, and act now. How is that consistent?

I have said I am extremely hawkish when it comes to national security.  If it were my job I'd bring someone on board like you as SecDef to calm me down.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, Max Fischer said:

 

Here's the entire press conference, word for word.  https://www.npr.org/2018/07/16/629462401/transcript-president-trump-and-russian-president-putins-joint-press-conference

 

It's all there.  

 

And if you can't read: 

 

 

There is literally NOTHING non-factual about this, nor treasonous:

 

Quote

I think that the, the probe is a disaster for our country. I think it's kept us apart, it's kept us separated. CORRECT.

 

Quote

There was no collusion at all. Everybody knows it. People are being brought out to the fore. So far that I know virtually none of it related to the campaign. CORRECT

 

And they're gonna have to try really hard to find somebody that did relate to the campaign. That was a clean campaign. I beat Hillary Clinton easily and frankly we beat her. CORRECT

 

[Deranged Rhino]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I have said I am extremely hawkish when it comes to national security.  If it were my job I'd bring someone on board like you as SecDef to calm me down.

 

I hear you, and I'm really not trying to be annoying or argumentative just to be an ass. It's a vastly complex subject and we all (myself included) need to resist trying to boil it down to its simplest terms - especially when there's so much intentional disinformation out there on all these topics. 

[GG]

4 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I'm pointing out the fact that Trump has indeed cast doubt on Russian hacking. There is no conflation on my part.  Sit down. 

 

The questions weren't about hacking, but about Russian interference, and that's what Trump responded to.

 

How come nobody brings this Trump statement?

 

Quote

During today’s meeting, I addressed directly with President Putin the issue of Russian interference in our elections. I felt this was a message best delivered in person. Spent a great deal of time talking about it. 

 

[LB3]

Yesterday was bad optics for Trump. There was bipartisan condemnation. The left was given a layup and they bricked it by going batshit. They couldn't just let him screw up. They had to exaggerate so much that sane people end up annoyed at them too. This is how they get more Trump.

[DC Tom]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

Trying to affect the elections is not an act of war?  

 

Legally, an act of war is what Congress decides is an act of war.  

 

Morally...you're an idiot.  Posting bull **** on the internet is worth the commitment of the full force of the US military?  Does that make Facebook guilty of treason for allowing it?  Does that make Clinton guilty of treason for pushing for and helping with the development of the Zelenograd complex that did the posting?  Should we go to war with the Chinese for hacking the data of millions of clearances from OPM?  

 

Or maybe you're just unhinged?

[Deranged Rhino]

Just now, LBSeeBallLBGetBall said:

Yesterday was bad optics for Trump. There was bipartisan condemnation. The left was given a layup and they bricked it by going batshit. They couldn't just let him screw up. They had to exaggerate so much that sane people end up annoyed at them too. This is how they get more Trump.

 

100%. And he dug himself his own hole. 

 

But instead of dealing with it like adults, the push to the extreme allows the majority of this country to clearly see the partisan hackery at work. November isn't going to go the way the DNC wishes.

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, GG said:

 

The questions weren't about hacking, but about Russian interference, and that's what Trump responded to.

 

How come nobody brings this Trump statement?

 

Hint: Hacking is included as part of the interference.  Cute try though.  Prior to yesterday he has cast doubt on Russian hacking as I initially posted. 

[DC Tom]

3 minutes ago, GG said:

 

The questions weren't about hacking, but about Russian interference, and that's what Trump responded to.

 

How come nobody brings this Trump statement?

 

 

 

It sounds like a responsible exercise of foreign policy.

 

Hang the !@#$er.