Cover1 article on Josh Allen's footwork

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

23 minutes ago, JaxBills said:

That's a little unfair. It's not like hapless is crusading. And until the season starts and we see what we have all his points are still valid

 

 

I know he's not. as for seeing what we have. we have josh allen, arizona has rosen.

 

I'll be clinging to the hopes allen pans out, which I believe he will. as for rosen, I could care less what that conceited blowhard does. likely wont be a long career, one good hit to the head and he'll likely be toast.

[John from Riverside]

He has footwork issues

 

but this is something we already know.   If he didnt have them he probably gets drafted number 1 overall.

 

Lets recap

 

Mayfield is short....has been arrested....does not hold his poise well as he has shown....and has not played in a pro style offense

 

Darnold has small hands......fumbles the ball and throws picks

 

Rosen has had multiple concussions.....his football heart has been questioned....has a extremely frail frame....and plays a style of football that CAUSES him to take hits

 

THEY ALL HAD WARTS

[BillsBytheBay]

1 minute ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

 

 

I know he's not. as for seeing what we have. we have josh allen, arizona has rosen.

 

I'll be clinging to the hopes allen pans out, which I believe he will. as for rosen, I could care less what that conceited blowhard does. likely wont be a long career, one good hit to the head and he'll likely be toast.

So many talented QBs came out in the first round, you'll not avoid comparison for years to come,??

 

I've said before that I didn't sell myself on any QBs before the draft (maybe Mayfield a bit) but I think we have the best career guy of all the Rooks.

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

For an amateur operation, Cover1 is really nicely done.   I'm never sure he's completely correct on this stuff, but his analysis is always sound. 

 

Here's my take:

 

1.  You can't throw the ball with the velocity and, often, the accuracy that Allen does without having fundamentally good mechanics.   All his measurables in the throwing area are excellen - release time, velocity, etc.   The guy has fundamentally good mechanics.   So the mechanical problems are not problems with his THROWING, which is what you find with plenty of guys who have mechanical problems.

 

2.  Allen's problems shown in this article and videos are that his footwork in advance of his throw is sometimes flawed, which leaves him in the wrong position when it's time to throw.   Then he delays the throw and misses the window or he hurries the throw and his mechanics then suffer, affecting his accuracy.

 

I think the difference between those two points is critical.  I agree with those who say changing mechanics in an athlete at this level is very difficult.   You can try to remake the throwing motion, but when the pressure is on in game situations, most athletes revert to the muscle memory they've developed over several years.   What they practice on Wednesday goes out the window on Sunday.   That's why most QBs with mechanical issues in their throwing motion, guys in category 1, never overcome the problem.

 

Allen's not in category 1.   He has a great throwing motion.  Allen's in category 2.   Essentially, the problem Cover1 describes is that Allen hasn't learned the steps to the dance.  Sometimes he's doing the cha-cha when he's supposed to be waltzing.   That's a different problem, and an easier problem to correct than being in category 1.   Any athlete can learn the dance steps.   In fact, teams spend a lot of time teaching that.  On most NFL passing plays, the ball is released quickly, and QBs are taught to take precise steps preliminary to the pass.   THey're taught which foot takes the first step, how far, etc.   Step, step, step, pass.  It's all choreographed.    Allen can learn that.

 

Where Cover1's analysis is more relevant is when Allen is forced to move or scramble.   That's not most plays, but it's enough to make a difference.   Then, Allen's ability to set a good base with his feet, not spread too much, feet moving, etc., becomes more important.   Those things can be taught, but like the throwing motion, the question is whether the teaching will hold when he's under pressure.   For that, we'll just have to wait and see.  

 

Mehanics as you said come two fold... upper body and lower body... By 21 most upper body mechanics are set in stone... if you have been throwing a football consistently good for 15 years it’s tough to rebuild that and remake it... just leave it, like rivers

 

Lower Body is super important but not as set in stone. The drills , the attention to detail, opening up correctly can all be taught and learned easier than upper body mechanics 

 

Joshs footbwork is already 20x better than it was in 2016 and he has been making a habit to focus on it... as you said he is not innately innacurate because he throws too many good balls with accuracy and velocity 

 

His lower body is just not synced with his upper body yet... but above the waist , his release and motion is great 

[HardyBoy]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I really dislike the demarcation into "fanboys" and "haters."

 

Hater! :)

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, TigerJ said:

The article closed on a hopeful note, suggesting that Jordan Palmer's work to help him correct his footwork/mechanical issues seems to have paid dividends in all his post season appearances, from the Senior Bowl on.  

 

He looked great when there was no pass rush pressure in the second half of that game.    The fear is he'll revert back to 'hero ball' when he does face pressure, like he did at Wyoming last year.    It's going to be the biggest thing to watch this summer...

[HappyDays]

40 minutes ago, aceman_16 said:

Also,  the more I look into Allen the more I realize he isn't a finished product.  I truly believe that he has not been playing QB long enough nor extensively enough to have cemented bad habits. When people refer to previous QBs saying that they will revert to bad habits "once bullets fly" are typically correct.  However,  in Josh's case I don't think he has been playing long enough to have formed too many "bad" long term habits. 

 

33 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Josh’s mechanics are already 10x better than they were in 2016. 

 

They have been on a steady incline for a while now... they are not as poor as Mahomes footwork and he has a lot of experience under center 

 

24 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Essentially, the problem Cover1 describes is that Allen hasn't learned the steps to the dance.  Sometimes he's doing the cha-cha when he's supposed to be waltzing.   That's a different problem, and an easier problem to correct than being in category 1.   Any athlete can learn the dance steps.   In fact, teams spend a lot of time teaching that.  On most NFL passing plays, the ball is released quickly, and QBs are taught to take precise steps preliminary to the pass.   THey're taught which foot takes the first step, how far, etc.   Step, step, step, pass.  It's all choreographed.    Allen can learn that.

 

Good posts. This is what's keeping me hopeful about him. But then I hear Beane say that Allen isn't raw and I wonder what their plan is.

[Tatonka68]

What would Josh Rosens's completion percentage and "footwork" look like if he played for Wyoming last year? People will B word and moan because they are butt hurt that they past on Rosen. If you watch Allen's tape in the senior bowl with an open mind you will see his "accuracy" is fine. Some people will never be happy, they are welcome to become Cardinal fans if they want.

[Buffalo716]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

 

 

Good posts. This is what's keeping me hopeful about him. But then I hear Beane say that Allen isn't raw and I wonder what their plan is.

 

Realistically and honestly he isn’t as raw as EJ or even a Jared Goff 

 

Goff never took a snap under center and played in the most gimmicky offense ever created. Before him no air raid QB has worked out. 

 

EJ was in a FSU offense which cut the field in half for him and only asked him to make half field reads. He was also surrounded by NFL talent 

 

Allen played under center over 40%. Made line calls and audibles at the LoS. Well versed in play action under center and ran an NFL style offense with NFL reads

 

If he looks like the best QB in camp you need to give it to him 

[HappyDays]

18 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Realistically and honestly he isn’t as raw as EJ or even a Jared Goff 

 

Goff never took a snap under center and played in the most gimmicky offense ever created. Before him no air raid QB has worked out. 

 

EJ was in a FSU offense which cut the field in half for him and only asked him to make half field reads. He was also surrounded by NFL talent 

 

Allen played under center over 40%. Made line calls and audibles at the LoS. Well versed in play action under center and ran an NFL style offense with NFL reads

 

If he looks like the best QB in camp you need to give it to him 

 

Yeah I guess that's what Beane is talking about. He's used to running a whole field pro style offense. And his throwing motion is already a finished product. They must think that his footwork is his biggest problem and that it is fixable.

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I guess that's what Beane is talking about. He's used to running a whole field pro style offense. And his throwing motion is already a finished product. They must think that his footwork is his biggest problem and that it is fixable.

 

His footwork was definitely his biggest flaw imo but I don’t believe his footwork is as bad as Mahomes was and I think it’s correctable 

[simpleman]

I always enjoy learning new things in Cover 1 articles. Good Stuff!

[Fadingpain]

2 hours ago, BillsFan3434 said:

I know I'm going to come off as a negative-Nelly, and I obviously wish Allen all the good fortune in the world and I hope he leads us to 20 super bowls, but a severely dislike taking quarterbacks with "a high upside but need some work".  Wayyyyyyyyyyyyy more quarterbacks than not don't fix the issues and go right back to what they know and their athleticism / second nature when the pocket starts to break down, which this is the NFL so that happens 80% of the time.

 

I would rather have a quarterback that is ready to play quarterback and might talk crap about the president every now and again.  Tom Brady was tied to the president and he doesn't get crapped on, "Oh, Tom Brady is too political".

Of course!  

 

This is the long version of explaining why we took the wrong Josh.

 

We'll be looking for another QB in a few years.  This is all going to be EJ 2.0.

 

 

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, Tatonka68 said:

What would Josh Rosens's completion percentage and "footwork" look like if he played for Wyoming last year? People will B word and moan because they are butt hurt that they past on Rosen. If you watch Allen's tape in the senior bowl with an open mind you will see his "accuracy" is fine. Some people will never be happy, they are welcome to become Cardinal fans if they want.

Unfortunately, we will never know the answer to that question. What we do know is that Allen spent a good majority of his time in 2017 running for his life behind an offensive line that was, for the most part, inferior to level of talent they were playing against. I watched Allen's games and I watched Rosen's games, and I rarely saw Rosen face the level or consistency of pressure that Allen faced. One of the few games in which I saw Rosen face anywhere near that level of pressure for an entire game was the Texas A&M game in 2016.

 

Before I hear about having to go back to 2016, in his second year, I choose that game because it was one of the very few, I saw that, IMHO, was close to what Allen faced most games last year. Watch that game and you will see bad decisions, bad throws, bad mechanics, 3 interceptions and 56% completion percentage. Rosen also had similar games, but to a lesser degree, in 2015, 2016 and 2017.

 

While it is true that Allen played against inferior competition, the truth is, it doesn't matter how bad the opposing talent is when the offinsive talent around you is still inferior to the opposing talent - and the offensive talent around Allen in 2016 was not that good, and was abysmal in 2017.  Approx 15 or so offensive lineman and skill position players that Rosen played with have gone on to sign NFL contracts, while only 3 that Allen played with went on to sign NFL contracts - all in 2016 and 2 were undrafted free agents. When Tanner Gentry is the best receiver Allen ever got to play with, it is hard to make an accurate comparison.

 

I do find it interesting that, inspite of the differences in talent, both Rosen and Allen finished their first two collegiate seasons with a sub 60% completion percentage.

 

Like I have said before, my choice was Rosen over Allen; however, I was not disappointed when we ended up with Allen. I think it is much more difficult to evaluate Allen than Rosen. IMO, I think Allen will be much better at the NFL level than some believe.

Edited May 14, 2018 by billsfan1959

[White Linen]

I really dislike these articles.  Not because I want to get into some argument about Allen is or isn't accurate or footwork blah blah blah.  These pundits, articles, analysts, writers, etc all have something to say.  They contradict each other and you know why?  Because none of them know.  You can screen shot all you want and so can cover1 or anyone else.  They don't, we don't, and I don't know crap as it relates to which QB's will make it and which ones wont.  

 

Stop listening to these people.  Stop saying it's a great read, etc.  They are the one's that literally can't be accurate.  They just spent more time having a faulty opinion.  

 

This whole idea that footwork can be analyzed and correlated to accuracy is a bunch of crap, and I'm being dead serious.  There's multiple styles of successful QB's and they all have different footwork, arm angles, release points, height, release times, hand size, arm strength and on and on and on.  They all have different coaches, WR/TE's, offensive schemes, indoor/outdoor stadiums and on and on and on.  

 

Allen either has it or he doesn't.  Let's just see what he can do, shall we?

 

There's multiple ways to do everything.   There's a jump shot in the gym with no defender on you,  there's a jump shot with a guy in your face, there's a time for a fade away and on and on and on.  

 

Some guys get it done at the NFL level and it's not because they set up better "hallways".  

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, White Linen said:

I really dislike these articles.  Not because I want to get into some argument about Allen is or isn't accurate or footwork blah blah blah.  These pundits, articles, analysts, writers, etc all have something to say.  They contradict each other and you know why?  Because none of them know.  You can screen shot all you want and so can cover1 or anyone else.  They don't, we don't, and I don't know crap as it relates to which QB's will make it and which ones wont.  

 

Stop listening to these people.  Stop saying it's a great read, etc.  They are the one's that literally can't be accurate.  They just spent more time having a faulty opinion.  

 

This whole idea that footwork can be analyzed and correlated to accuracy is a bunch of crap, and I'm being dead serious.  There's multiple styles of successful QB's and they all have different footwork, arm angles, release points, height, release times, hand size, arm strength and on and on and on.  They all have different coaches, WR/TE's, offensive schemes, indoor/outdoor stadiums and on and on and on.  

 

Allen either has it or he doesn't.  Let's just see what he can do, shall we?

 

There's multiple ways to do everything.   There's a jump shot in the gym with no defender on you,  there's a jump shot with a guy in your face, there's a time for a fade away and on and on and on.  

 

Some guys get it done at the NFL level and it's not because they set up better "hallways".  

I share your viewpoint to a point, but not all the way.   I"m one of the first to decry all these online "experts" who are analyzing this and that.   Very few of them were players, fewer still were coaches and none either played or coached in the NFL for a serious career.   A lot of these arguments about accuracy, throwing guys open, throwing over the middle are being written by seriously under-informed people.     I agree.

 

However, some people are better at what they do than others.   I, for one, find the Cover1 analysis generally pretty good.   Not perfect, and I'm skeptical because it isn't a guy with 15 hears experence coaching offense in the NFL, but I find when I read what he says and look at the video he presents, his judgments about what's going on are pretty good.  

 

And I think you're wrong about footwork, or mechanics more generally, and accuracy.   Yes, guys have different styles, arm angles, etc.  However, there are some fundamental things about mechanics that you find with all successful quarterbacks, like how the upper body opens up on the throw.   So you can start with that.   And some QBs succeed despite themselves - no coach is going to teach his 10th grade QB to throw like Rivers does.   That motion ust isn't very effective for throwing the ball; Rivers makes it work because of outstanding athletic ability, but you aren't going to teach your kid to do that.   Favre, too.   But if you watch Rodgers on the run, even though he throws from all different positions and arm angles, the fundamentals of throwing motion are always there, and always pure.   

 

Finally, if you don't want to talk about this stuff, fine, don't.  But there is SOME merit to it and SOME people do want to talk about it.   If the conversation has to stop because none of us is a true expert, because none of us really knows what we're talking about, well, then the entire forum has to be shut down.  I mean, all I could post is "I like Allen."    If I write "I like Allen because ...," then everything that follows should be deleted because I'm not an expert.   

[eball]

9 minutes ago, White Linen said:

I really dislike these articles.  Not because I want to get into some argument about Allen is or isn't accurate or footwork blah blah blah.  These pundits, articles, analysts, writers, etc all have something to say.  They contradict each other and you know why?  Because none of them know.  You can screen shot all you want and so can cover1 or anyone else.  They don't, we don't, and I don't know crap as it relates to which QB's will make it and which ones wont.  

 

Stop listening to these people.  Stop saying it's a great read, etc.  They are the one's that literally can't be accurate.  They just spent more time having a faulty opinion.  

 

This whole idea that footwork can be analyzed and correlated to accuracy is a bunch of crap, and I'm being dead serious.  There's multiple styles of successful QB's and they all have different footwork, arm angles, release points, height, release times, hand size, arm strength and on and on and on.  They all have different coaches, WR/TE's, offensive schemes, indoor/outdoor stadiums and on and on and on.  

 

Allen either has it or he doesn't.  Let's just see what he can do, shall we?

 

There's multiple ways to do everything.   There's a jump shot in the gym with no defender on you,  there's a jump shot with a guy in your face, there's a time for a fade away and on and on and on.  

 

Some guys get it done at the NFL level and it's not because they set up better "hallways".  

 

I like cover1 for his descriptions of what is going on during plays, but I really appreciate your post.  Allen is a pure natural thrower of the football.  If they (Bills' coaches) can tinker with some footwork issues to make him more consistent on certain throws that's great, but he's going to make it or not based upon his arm and his head.

[White Linen]

21 minutes ago, eball said:

 

I like cover1 for his descriptions of what is going on during plays, but I really appreciate your post.  Allen is a pure natural thrower of the football.  If they (Bills' coaches) can tinker with some footwork issues to make him more consistent on certain throws that's great, but he's going to make it or not based upon his arm and his head.

 

You're exactly right.   Look, I don't mean to totally dismiss mechanics and every player should continue to work on fundamentals but that's not what separates the greats.  

[Shaw66]

21 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

You're exactly right.   Look, I don't mean to totally dismiss mechanics and every player should continue to work on fundamentals but that's not what separates the greats.  

I don't hink we're talking about separating the greats.   We're talking about the busts.   A guy with bad mechanics has a very high probability of busting.   

[eball]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't hink we're talking about separating the greats.   We're talking about the busts.   A guy with bad mechanics has a very high probability of busting.   

 

I think you're talking past each other.  Allen has some *great* natural attributes and @White Linen is only saying those are more indicative of whether he will succeed than his perceived "footwork" issues.  If you look at why highly-drafted QBs "bust" it's almost always because they can't mentally process the game at an NFL level or aren't self-motivated.  It's rarely because they're the hardest workers around with great arms who can't stop throwing scattershot.