Why the Allen project may be different

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

3 hours ago, Batman1876 said:

Many fans, myself included were fearful of the Bills drafting a project QB. We've all see these projects fail more often than not and trap the franchise in the "maybe next year they'll put it together" cycle. But as we know the Bills picked the project and it leads to the question, Why take the risk? As I see it there are two possible answers to that question. The first is that Bills leadership let their Ego get in the way of good decision making, they believed that they are special ans can succeed where everyone else has failed. Its a pessimistic view and seemingly the most popular opinion. But there is another option, that they saw something different about this project. What they saw that was different, size, smarts and story. 

 

Size- This is the one we've heard the most about, hes tall, sturdy, fast and has a big arm.  It's easy to lump him in with others who fit that description but to do so misses out on how big his arm is.  His release is as fast as Aaron Rodgers and his throw velocity is the fastest ever recorded.  Its not simply that he has a big arm its that he has the biggest arm.  Its reasonable to assume that elite physical talent will help in development. 

 

Smarts- Again this one is talked about regularly.  Allen did well on the wonderlic and maintained a solid GPA. Those who have worked with him say he is a smart kid who picks stuff up fast and his whiteboard work at the combine was reportedly very good.  This should aid his development as he is asked to do more in the NFL and as he learns to better diagnose and respond to what the defense is doing. 

 

Story- this one is talked about least and may play a big role in the divide regarding Allen. Before looking at his story lets look at the most common path to the draft that the 95% of QBs take. Early on they attend increasingly more prestigious QB camps, they transfer to go to an Elite High school and focus only on football and then are recruited to an elite program. in other words by the time most project QBs get to the NFL they have already had the best coaching available for 10-12 years. All that coaching has tapped their potential quite a bit. The result of this is projects who develop very little, because the 12 years of coaching they've already had has left little room for growth.  Allen on the other hand did not attend elite QB camps, went to a D5 high school where he was a multi sport athlete, went to a JUCO and then a football program about as elite as the UB Bulls. In other words Allen hasn't had his talent tapped into by good coaching before.  He is a well of untapped potential. Far from the kids who grow very little when they hit the NFL Allen should grow quite a bit. I think this untapped potential is what GMs were seeing that the internet scouts weren't. 

 

So in the end he's still a project, he's still a risk. However when you look at the total situation there is more room for hope than there is with most project QBs. He has talent worth tapping into and for the first time he'll be getting the elite coaching to help him do just that. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If all these QBs coming out are risk, which they are then you go with the biggest size so he can withstand the beating, the biggest arm to play in all weather conditions and throw in the running ability as an added bonus, think big and hope for the best imo. 

[K-9]

15 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Ok so guess a QB coach, you know the guy that interacts with the QB the most should not be held as a worry that he hasnt coached QBs since the 80s for a small school. Then what is the need for QB coaches again?

 

Guess we need to stop blaming Teflon Juan for the OL too right. I mean after all he is only a position coach. 

If Culley were going to be the sole influence on his development, perhaps I'd worry. But Culley is only part of a cadre of coaches that will be tasked with his development. And Culley himself isn't beyond being held accountable if it's felt he's not doing the job properly by his bosses. 

 

The fact he hasn't worked with QBs since the 80s is immaterial. He has a wealth of coaching experience, regardless. That's the last thing I'd worry about. Generally, every coach with his level of experience at various levels can coach other positions. 

 

Feel free to rant on Castillo all you want. He's not germane to the discussion, anyway. 

[Skins Malone]

Not a huge fan of the "project" label.  Who makes this true? How many interceptions did Darnold have?  He maynot end up being a project.  Hes huge..cannon arm..great mobility and can throw off either foot...can throw on the run..make plays happen when pocket breaks down...and apparently has a higj football IQ

 

To me hes no more of a project then other QBs.  The NFL is a different monster with the best of the best.  Its not college.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Skins Malone

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 minutes ago, billspro said:

 

I would say often the best coaches are not the best players. Those type of guys made it to the league because of their football smarts making up for deficiencies in their athletic ability.

 

Senior bowl. It means much more to me than the pro bowl. 

 

At the senior bowl you have a bunch of kids going 100% to try and make an impression on NFL coaches. I wouldn’t down play it like that.

 

 

a helluva good point on best coaches aren't the best players....NICELY done......Pro Bowl is a popularity contest....Senior Bowk is kids trying to make an NFL career out of their collegiate careers...me?...I like the "POTENTIAL on paper" of McBeane's picks....coaching and development is the next step....when the pukette pundits offer up "he sucks....McBeane should be fired...set this club back 5 years....yada yada", they should hold those thughts inside versus exposing their ingorance.....oh wait, I got slammed for being a kool-aid drinker for supporting alleged NFL execs and their choices vs TBD "experts"....their choices gospel?...hell no.....but in "the know" versus pundits here, you make the call...SMH...

[LABILLBACKER]

I'll give our organization the opportunity to develop Allen but these 4 college games scare the he'll out of me.

9/16 Oregon.        64 yards

9/23 Hawaii.         92 yards 

11/4 Colorado St.  138 yards. 0 TD

11/11 Air Force.    70 yards

....these are awful numbers against mediocre d1 competition. Why did his college coaches decide to reduce his attempts in 2017??? I'll keep an open mind but something does not add up...

[Dr. Who]

4 minutes ago, Skins Malone said:

Not a huge fan of the "project" label.  Who makes this true? How many interceptions did Darnold have?  He maynot end up being a project.  Hes huge..cannon arm..great mobility and can throw off either foot...can throw on the run..make plays happen when pocket breaks down...and apparently has a higj football IQ

 

To me hes no more of a project then other QBs.  The NFL is a different monster with the best of the best.  Its not college.

Well, I think one could reasonably argue that Rosen is more polished and that Mayfield is probably more developed as a qb.  Allen and Darnold need more work.  Allen has not had the level of coaching and support the others have had.  So, project in that sense, but I do agree it is an equivocal term with limited relevance.  

[SouthNYfan]

The "Allen project" is different because it's Allen.

Not EJ, not JP, not Brady, not Rodgers, not jamarcus, not Bortles, not anybody but Allen.

Nobody knows what he will do.

Let's just ride it out.

If it crashes and burns, so be it.

[Dr. Who]

4 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I'll give our organization the opportunity to develop Allen but these 4 college games scare the he'll out of me.

9/16 Oregon.        64 yards

9/23 Hawaii.         92 yards 

11/4 Colorado St.  138 yards. 0 TD

11/11 Air Force.    70 yards

....these are awful numbers against mediocre d1 competition. Why did his college coaches decide to reduce his attempts in 2017??? I'll keep an open mind but something does not add up...

Well, the supporting cast in 2017 was much worse and he was running for his life much of the time.

[MAJBobby]

9 minutes ago, K-9 said:

If Culley were going to be the sole influence on his development, perhaps I'd worry. But Culley is only part of a cadre of coaches that will be tasked with his development. And Culley himself isn't beyond being held accountable if it's felt he's not doing the job properly by his bosses. 

 

The fact he hasn't worked with QBs since the 80s is immaterial. He has a wealth of coaching experience, regardless. That's the last thing I'd worry about. Generally, every coach with his level of experience at various levels can coach other positions. 

 

Feel free to rant on Castillo all you want. He's not germane to the discussion, anyway. 

 

Did a quick look at BB.com. Do not see a Cadre of coaches charged with development. I see position coaches. Want to put a name to this cadre kf coaches?

[K-9]

9 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Did a quick look at BB.com. Do not see a Cadre of coaches charged with development. I see position coaches. Want to put a name to this cadre kf coaches?

Daboll, McDermott, and McGeoghan to name a few in addition to Culley. I imagine he will continue his work with Jordan Palmer as well moving forward. 

 

Any chance we can wait and see how it goes before throwing a coach under the bus? Before convincing yourself Allen is doomed to failure with Culley before he straps a helmet on for the first time? 

 

Ah, who am I kidding? You won't be able to help yourself when it comes to condemning before the fact. You're in good company around here, though. 

[MAJBobby]

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Daboll, McDermott, and McGeoghan to name a few in addition to Culley. I imagine he will continue his work with Jordan Palmer as well moving forward. 

 

Any chance we can wait and see how it goes before throwing a coach under the bus? Before convincing yourself Allen is doomed to failure with Culley before he straps a helmet on for the first time? 

 

Ah, who am I kidding? You won't be able to help yourself when it comes to condemning before the fact. You're in good company around here, though. 

 

So in season when Daboll and McDermott are needed for you know game planning and such who is working with Allen. 

 

Also yeah I will question a guy that has ZERO resume in developing QBs. 

[K-9]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 

So in season when Daboll and McDermott are needed for you know game planning and such who is working with Allen. 

 

Also yeah I will question a guy that has ZERO resume in developing QBs. 

Daboll, McDermott, and Culley will still be working with Allen during the season in exactly that capacity, you know, GAMEPLANING; perhaps the most important aspect of a QB's development where he learns why defenses are trying to do what they do; learning the game on the conceptual level on both sides of the ball. You make it sound like Culley will just sit there and teach him to say, "hut one, hut two, hike." 

 

Ooh, the dreaded ZERO resume bomb! Like his experience in the game itself somehow disqualifies him from knowing every facet inside and out. 

 

Have fun with your misery search. Like I said, there is no shortage of Mr. Yucks around here to commiserate with. Enjoy. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

52 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

 

Sometimes posters see something like themselves in players they do not like hence why fadingpain sees Ryan Leaf in Allen.

 

Which is why Reich is a Head Coach now.  Not as much athletic ability as other QBs but brains and drive more than them.

It is the year (same with 1st round) that fits his scenario.

i wondered about that.  Then I thought maybe there was a 2 decade moratorium on looking back. Then I remembered Ryan Leaf was mentioned and noted he was drafted in 98.  After I cried a bit realizing 20 years of my own life has up and gone since Ryan Leaf was drafted,  I got back to wondering about 1998.  I was going to look at 1997, but I was so depressed thinking Josh Allen is destined to be Ryan Leaf, I  just put on some Dave Matthews, sat in a dark room and pondered how cruel life can be for a Bills fan. 

 

i hope he's not Ryan Leaf. 

[Bing Bong]

Project or not, let him compete for the spot this year and start him if he wins. 

 

Tyrod probably could win the job if he was still on the roster. I have no clue if AJ Mac is any good. His highlight reel is an AJ Green highlight reel.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

Could be September 2018.

 

I think the organization is open to him beating out AJ for the starting job, if he actually does that this summer.

 

 

Yes- but Beane has been VERY careful to set that up as unexpected. This regime is meticulous 

[C.Biscuit97]

Let’s be honest.  It just comes down to blind hope. All evidence thus far have not shown a nfl franchise qb.  

[Green Lightning]

5 hours ago, billspro said:

He made a huge jump working with Palmer this offseason. If he has a similar jump in training camp and year 1 we are going to have a very special franchise QB. 

 

He he also has our DNA. This team will have an identity this year. We are going to maximize our skill with hard work and when the other team takes a play off we will capitalize. This team is going to be very hard to beat at home. 

It's one thing to make a giant leap when you're playing in shorts. When you being blitzed and have Bill Belichick defenses confuse you, and have to make decisions at game speed, that's another story. Just going to have to see folks.

[Skins Malone]

3 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

Well, I think one could reasonably argue that Rosen is more polished and that Mayfield is probably more developed as a qb.  Allen and Darnold need more work.  Allen has not had the level of coaching and support the others have had.  So, project in that sense, but I do agree it is an equivocal term with limited relevance.  

Well said.  I do agree Rosen is more polished.  And your right many factors like coaching come into play.  I think the fact that Allen understands the game of football and has a high football IQ as people say..makes me believe he is not as much of a project as some may think.  The other two maybe more polished but imo have issues as well.  Mayfield is short..and yes you can be successful being a short QB but it is a disadvantage and a limitation.  Rosen imo is soft.  And being polished wont help when he gets drilled by a linebacker.  

2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

i wondered about that.  Then I thought maybe there was a 2 decade moratorium on looking back. Then I remembered Ryan Leaf was mentioned and noted he was drafted in 98.  After I cried a bit realizing 20 years of my own life has up and gone since Ryan Leaf was drafted,  I got back to wondering about 1998.  I was going to look at 1997, but I was so depressed thinking Josh Allen is destined to be Ryan Leaf, I  just put on some Dave Matthews, sat in a dark room and pondered how cruel life can be for a Bills fan. 

 

i hope he's not Ryan Leaf. 

I dont get it...why would Allen be Ryan Leaf?  Ryan Leaf was a head case Allen seems like a good kid with a goid head on his shoulders.  I don't understand why we are even talking about Ryan Leaf

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

3 minutes ago, Skins Malone said:

Well said.  I do agree Rosen is more polished.  And your right many factors like coaching come into play.  I think the fact that Allen understands the game of football and has a high football IQ as people say..makes me believe he is not as much of a project as some may think.  The other two maybe more polished but imo have issues as well.  Mayfield is short..and yes you can be successful being a short QB but it is a disadvantage and a limitation.  Rosen imo is soft.  And being polished wont help when he gets drilled by a linebacker.  

I dont get it...why would Allen be Ryan Leaf?  Ryan Leaf was a head case Allen seems like a good kid with a goid head on his shoulders.  I don't understand why we are even talking about Ryan Leaf

 

4 minutes ago, Skins Malone said:

Well said.  I do agree Rosen is more polished.  And your right many factors like coaching come into play.  I think the fact that Allen understands the game of football and has a high football IQ as people say..makes me believe he is not as much of a project as some may think.  The other two maybe more polished but imo have issues as well.  Mayfield is short..and yes you can be successful being a short QB but it is a disadvantage and a limitation.  Rosen imo is soft.  And being polished wont help when he gets drilled by a linebacker.  

I dont get it...why would Allen be Ryan Leaf?  Ryan Leaf was a head case Allen seems like a good kid with a goid head on his shoulders.  I don't understand why we are even talking about Ryan Leaf

My apologies for my part in any confusion.  I was following up on the prior poster who made the Ryan Leaf reference. I thought it was kind of an odd leap and was really just goofing around with that.

 

i was disappointed in the selection of JA but to be blunt I have no :/-$ing clue about any of these guys other than what I read. I watch the videos as well, but quite a bit of the context is lost on me because I know very little about x and o, pro style offense etc. Once he was selected, I read what I could, understood a bit of his story and think it's going to be fun watching him develop.  He does indeed seem like a good kid, and let's hope for the best. 

[billsfan89]

I would also add that Allen's lack of accuracy in college is not necessarily reflective of his touch or ability accuracy wise. His bad footwork developed in part because of terrible offensive line play (hard to have good footwork if you are consistently under pressure.) The offense he played in was a downfield throwing offense that didn't have as many high percentage throws as a lot of other offenses, not to mention that Allen's receivers weren't the best. 

 

If Allen is benched most of his rookie year he can develop his footwork decently before getting called into action, and if the O-line play in front of him improves (which in 2019 they can improve the o-line a lot lots of salary cap space and a draft class) he stands a chance of having much better footwork. Also, the offense will have more short throws and hopefully better WR's. 

 

I think that these factors are why teams fell in love with Allen so much during the process. The dude is straight out of central casting for a QB. 6 foot 5, 240 pounds, best arm strength most have seen or close to it, smart and a great leader the only issue is questions about accuracy which might have plausible explanations.