Why Nick Foles will most likely be traded before March 16?

[Jamie Mueller]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

No way I give a 1st for Nick Foles. Not a chance. I'd despair if this team did that. 

Alex Smith trade set the price... 3rd rounder and a starting player.  However, that was for a seasoned starting quarterback.  For Foles, perhaps just the pick.

[Doc]

30 minutes ago, CA OC Bills Fan said:

First, I’d love for the Bills to get Foles, I don’t believe his postseason play is a fluke.

 

The Eagles do not have significant cap issues that would force them to make this move, Jason Peters will be gone if he doesn’t restructure to give cap relief. They have less free agents than most teams and I believe know what they want or can do with them. Combined, there top two qbs are making less than many teams are paying one. They will get get a quality backup cheaper than Foles. Wentz had an acl and lcl tear. Those are the reasons the Eagles should keep him.

 

On the other hand, Wentz still is confident he’ll be ready and will start the season opener. It seems unlikely the Eagles will be able to keep Foles for more than this season as he will sign a big contract elsewhere. They can likely get a first for him now or get nothing next year (unless they plan to tag and trade which could be possible). 

 

Ultimately, I think it depends on:

- when do they believe Wentz will be ready

- what are they offered 

- what is their backup backup ab plan

 

As I started with, I would be thrilled for the Bills to make a run for him.

 

Their cap situation isn't good.  Currently they're almost $5M over the cap for just their top-51 and over $11M over the cap for all their players.  Cutting Peters only saves them $1.4M.  They have 2 starters, Nigel Bradham and Corey Graham, who are UFA's.  Ronald Darby will probably be looking for a big extension.  And that's just the players I know about.  Others may be looking for extensions as well after a SB-winning season.

[dave mcbride]

Wentz tore a knee ligament. While there are cases in which there are complications, the vast majority of acl tears are straightforward.  He will be absolutely fine by game one. 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, dave mcbride said:

Wentz tore a knee ligament. While there are cases in which there are complications, the vast majority of acl tears are straightforward.  He will be absolutely fine by game one. 

 

Wentz also tore his LCL which means it's not certain he'll be back by game one.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/super-bowl-2018-carson-wentz-reveals-acl-injury-worse-than-originally-thought/

 

It's now been more than six weeks since Eagles quarterback Carson Wentz was lost for the season after suffering a left knee injury in a Week 14 win over the Rams. 

At the time, it was believed that Wentz had only suffered a torn ACL, but apparently, the injury was slightly more serious than that. During an interview on Friday, Wentz revealed that he also tore his LCL during the Eagles' 43-35 win over Los Angeles.  

"After we went in there and everything, it was actually the ACL and the LCL," Wentz said, via the Philadelphia Inquirer. "I'm still feeling confident with it. The rehab -- it's the same type of progression and everything. It's gone great so far."

[/dev/null]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

And you think that the Super Bowl MVP doesn’t want to start? There’s zero chance he’s going to be happy playing for four weeks just to give the ball back to Wentz. And, if he’s 4-0 at that point the Eagles are going to have a mess in their hands. Foles will be traded.

 

Foles was ready to give up football two years ago and was perfectly content with his situation as a backup.  Any team that trades for Foles is going to want him to renegotiate his contract for several season.  Foles may not be at a point in his life where he is ready to make that commitment.

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Wentz also tore his LCL which means it's not certain he'll be back by game one.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/super-bowl-2018-carson-wentz-reveals-acl-injury-worse-than-originally-thought/

 

It's now been more than six weeks since Eagles quarterback Carson Wentz was lost for the season after suffering a left knee injury in a Week 14 win over the Rams. 

At the time, it was believed that Wentz had only suffered a torn ACL, but apparently, the injury was slightly more serious than that. During an interview on Friday, Wentz revealed that he also tore his LCL during the Eagles' 43-35 win over Los Angeles.  

"After we went in there and everything, it was actually the ACL and the LCL," Wentz said, via the Philadelphia Inquirer. "I'm still feeling confident with it. The rehab -- it's the same type of progression and everything. It's gone great so far."

 

It shouldn't change the recovery timeline. 

[26CornerBlitz]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

It shouldn't change the recovery timeline. 

 

His readiness for week 1 is uncertain with a 9-12 month recovery time. 

[Buddo]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Their cap situation isn't good.  Currently they're almost $5M over the cap for just their top-51 and over $11M over the cap for all their players.  Cutting Peters only saves them $1.4M.  They have 2 starters, Nigel Bradham and Corey Graham, who are UFA's.  Ronald Darby will probably be looking for a big extension.  And that's just the players I know about.  Others may be looking for extensions as well after a SB-winning season.

 

Cutting Peters, according to Spotrac, saves them about $5million.

 

Neither Bradham or Graham would be considered as 'must' re-sign guys, imho.

 

A Darby extension can wait until around TC or the start of the new season, by which time a lot of other 'dust' will have settled.

 

It just makes no sense at all to trade a guy who isn't that expensive, irrespective of how much other teams may, or may not, covet him. Especially when he's playing the most important position on the team.

[Lfod]

4 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

And you think that the Super Bowl MVP doesn’t want to start? There’s zero chance he’s going to be happy playing for four weeks just to give the ball back to Wentz. And, if he’s 4-0 at that point the Eagles are going to have a mess in their hands. Foles will be traded.

If he is 4-0 who says he has to give the ball back to Wentz. I'd stick with the hot hand. I wouldn't feel obligated to start Wentz if I'm undefeated with Foles.

 

I'd sell Foles high now. That is just me being greedy and getting more money for something I bought cheaper. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Lfod

[ColoradoBills]

9 minutes ago, Lfod said:

If he is 4-0 who says he has to give the ball back to Wentz. I'd stick with the hot hand. I wouldn't feel obligated to start Wentz if I'm undefeated with Foles.

 

I'd be tempted to sell high if I could make a lot more then I put into having Foles. I'd sell one of them. 

 

Interesting take about Wentz.  I wonder what a team would give for a QB in his position.

Why can't the Bills have these "problems"!

[Lfod]

28 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Interesting take about Wentz.  I wonder what a team would give for a QB in his position.

Why can't the Bills have these "problems"!

I honestly would need more knowledge on the situation to make good choices. Like how much difference in talent do the QBs have? Is the team and system good enough that I won with a back up QB Foles? Do I really have two starting caliber QBs on the roster right now?

 

That would influence my choice. If I felt I had a good system and team and I still views Foles as a backup then I would sell high and it would be an easy choice. If Foles SB win made me view him as some one I could win with as a starter then I have a tougher choice. It would muddy the waters a lot for me.

 

I mean I couldn't sit a 4-0 Foles with a guy who has been injured and missed reps and camp. I agree that if Foles is pulled when winning and Wentz struggles at all it would just be bad. I would always stick with the hot hand.

 

If I felt they were just about interchangeable talent wise then I would listen to offers on either of them. Then I would do some deep thinking. Then I would make some final choices. 

 

Who is my main QB really, the guy who took the team to the playoffs or the guy that won in the playoffs and won the SB?

Edited February 11, 2018 by Lfod

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Wentz tore a knee ligament. While there are cases in which there are complications, the vast majority of acl tears are straightforward.  He will be absolutely fine by game one. 

 

The report is he tore both an ACL and an LCL and is taking longer to heal because of that. 

 

Bradford serves as "Exhibit A" of what happens when a guy with an ACL tries to come back too soon: more haste, less speed.

 

2 hours ago, Jamie Mueller said:

Alex Smith trade set the price... 3rd rounder and a starting player.  However, that was for a seasoned starting quarterback.  For Foles, perhaps just the pick.

 

I think you want to flip it about.  Alex Smith set the price for an old guy (33) coming off a career season who has not been able to take his team past the Div round in 4 tries.

 

Nick Foles is gonna set the price for a 5 year younger guy with a great year as starter in his past, who just ripped off two fantastic games to take his team to the World Championship.

 

I don't think that latter gets you a discount.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[SouthNYfan]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

It shouldn't change the recovery timeline. 

 

False.

 

An LCL injury changes the recovery timeline by quite a bit.

He tore multiple ligaments making his knee unstable in multiple directions.

Multi ligament injuries have different rehab protocols and restrictions compared to single ligament injuries.

Every single knee I have rehabbed that has involved multiple ligaments had absolutely taken longer to achieve full prior level of function.

An ACL prevents anterior translation of the tibia in regards to the femur.

This stability can be supplemented by over strengthening the hamstrings and gastrocnemius muscles.

An LCL (or MCL) prevents lateral movement at the knee joint. LCL prevents a varus movement (knee bowing outward to the side) which there are no muscles which you can directly strengthen to help support this as you can with an ACL. 

You must just generally strength the knee in all directions while protecting the integrity of the joint and ligament repair.

 

You are 100% wrong saying a multi ligament injury doesn't affect the timeline.

 

[Doc]

2 hours ago, Buddo said:

Cutting Peters, according to Spotrac, saves them about $5million.

 

Neither Bradham or Graham would be considered as 'must' re-sign guys, imho.

 

A Darby extension can wait until around TC or the start of the new season, by which time a lot of other 'dust' will have settled.

 

It just makes no sense at all to trade a guy who isn't that expensive, irrespective of how much other teams may, or may not, covet him. Especially when he's playing the most important position on the team.

 

True, if the Eagles designate Peters a post-June 1st cut, he'd save $4.6M, and they can wait on Darby.  They'd still be over the cap.  As for Bradham and Graham, they'll still need to find replacements which will cost money.  Then you figure they need to have about $5M for injuries.  Keeping Foles is doable but not ideal.

 

25 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

False.

 

An LCL injury changes the recovery timeline by quite a bit.

He tore multiple ligaments making his knee unstable in multiple directions.

Multi ligament injuries have different rehab protocols and restrictions compared to single ligament injuries.

Every single knee I have rehabbed that has involved multiple ligaments had absolutely taken longer to achieve full prior level of function.

An ACL prevents anterior translation of the tibia in regards to the femur.

This stability can be supplemented by over strengthening the hamstrings and gastrocnemius muscles.

An LCL (or MCL) prevents lateral movement at the knee joint. LCL prevents a varus movement (knee bowing outward to the side) which there are no muscles which you can directly strengthen to help support this as you can with an ACL. 

You must just generally strength the knee in all directions while protecting the integrity of the joint and ligament repair.

 

You are 100% wrong saying a multi ligament injury doesn't affect the timeline.

 

I've seen a few sites say that it shouldn't affect the recovery time.  But some others say it may. 

 

What do you think his timeline to return will be?  Training camp?  Opening day?  Later in the season?

Edited February 11, 2018 by Doc

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 hours ago, Buddo said:

 

Cutting Peters, according to Spotrac, saves them about $5million.

 

Neither Bradham or Graham would be considered as 'must' re-sign guys, imho.

 

A Darby extension can wait until around TC or the start of the new season, by which time a lot of other 'dust' will have settled.

 

It just makes no sense at all to trade a guy who isn't that expensive, irrespective of how much other teams may, or may not, covet him. Especially when he's playing the most important position on the team.

 

...perfectly stated...he's under contract at a bargain..................

[davspo]

Philly would be crazy to move Foles-. Dude just won them the Super Bowl and there started is coming back from an injury that usually takes a year to heal

 

[SouthNYfan]

20 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

True, if the Eagles designate Peters a post-June 1st cut, he'd save $4.6M, and they can wait on Darby.  They'd still be over the cap.  As for Bradham and Graham, they'll still need to find replacements which will cost money.  Then you figure they need to have about $5M for injuries.  Keeping Foles is doable but not ideal.

 

 

I've seen a few sites say that it shouldn't affect the recovery time.  But some others say it may. 

 

What do you think his timeline to return will be?  Training camp?  Opening day?  Later in the season?

 

Depends on the grade of his LCL tear.

They can add anywhere from 2-10 weeks to the recovery time.

LCL tears generally damage the ITband as well, and are generally indicative of a rotation injury in combination with the translation injury of the ACL.

He may have only had a grade 1 LCL tear, which would only tack 2 weeks onto his timeline.

True ACL rehabilitation takes about 9 months to a year before most are back.

He had the surgical repair on dec 12th

I would bet that they try to push him for 9 months recovery.

Training camp begins in late July usually.

That's 7 months until training camp.

Regular season starts Sept 6th.

That's 10 months for him to start the season.

If all goes well, it's a tight timetable.

I would say that if everything goes perfectly and they were being smart and conservative with him, he shouldn't play in preseason, only contact practices starting right around week 1.

Prob shouldn't see.a game until week 3-4.

 

Remember, that is typical PROPER ACL recovery time and rehab.

He also injured his LCL, which could complicate it.

 

Professional judgement he shouldn't play until at least October, and that's a fast recovery.

 

They might rush him back.

 

I think it's reckless if he plays in preseason and week1 and could be Sam Bradford 2.0.

 

Remember Brady missed a full year, tore his week 1 and didn't come back until the following year, and only played lightly in the following preseason.

 

 

 

Palmer came back in 8 months after his first one.

 

So honestly, who knows the timeline, they rush guys back, you know?

 

I think best for his career to not play in a game until October, which means they'll have him back by August obv

[Doc]

Yeah, I expect him to be back in time for training camp, whether appropriate or not.

[Mr. WEO]

Eagles have to unload Peters.  His value to the team just evaporated and won't get higher for trade later.

[Doc]

34 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Eagles have to unload Peters.  His value to the team just evaporated and won't get higher for trade later.

 

The problem with trading him before June 1st is they can't save money on the cap.  And given that, his age, salary, and coming off injury, I'm not sure how high his trade value is anyway.

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

The problem with trading him before June 1st is they can't save money on the cap.  And given that, his age, salary, and coming off injury, I'm not sure how high his trade value is anyway.

 

Cap hit for this year or multiple years?

 

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Cap hit for this year or multiple years?

 

 If they release him with a post-June 1st designation, they save $4.6M but have a $3.15M cap hit for next year.  If they don't, they save just $1.4M but have no cap hit next year.

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

 If they release him with a post-June 1st designation, they save $4.6M but have a $3.15M cap hit for next year.  If they don't, they save just $1.4M but have no cap hit next year.

 

That sucks for them. 

[ColoradoBills]

Just now, Doc said:

 

 If they release him with a post-June 1st designation, they save $4.6M but have a $3.15M cap hit for next year.  If they don't, they save just $1.4M but have no cap hit next year.

 

The crazy thing about the Eagles is their 2019 Cap is very bad too.

In 2019 they have 39 players under contract and are $9 million in the hole already!

The next closest team is Jacksonville with 41 under contract and sit at PLUS $28 million.

 

Philly definitely has a lot of cap work to do this year.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said:

The crazy thing about the Eagles is their 2019 Cap is very bad too.

In 2019 they have 39 players under contract and are $9 million in the hole already!

The next closest team is Jacksonville with 41 under contract and sit at PLUS $28 million.

 

Philly definitely has a lot of cap work to do this year.

 

That's why trading Foles sooner rather than later makes more sense.  They'd save $4.6M by doing it before 3/18. 

[ColoradoBills]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

 

That's why trading Foles sooner rather than later makes more sense.  They'd save $4.6M by doing it before 3/18. 

 

I agree.  I got to think the Eagles want to keep Foles but because of their unique cap issues they would be crazy not to listen to offers!

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

That's why trading Foles sooner rather than later makes more sense.  They'd save $4.6M by doing it before 3/18. 

 

Just now, ColoradoBills said:

 

I agree.  I got to think the Eagles want to keep Foles but because of their unique cap issues they would be crazy not to listen to offers!

 

It would be a straightforward decision were it not for the question of the readiness of Wentz for the 2018 season.  It's not a simple matter of cap room. 

[greeneblitz]

In his whole career, Foles has never had even close to his trade value right now, why the hell would we want to buy so high? In all likelihood, Nick Foles is a good backup, who played big in big games, much as Frank Reich was back in the day. We need a franchise QB, to get that you don't go get a castoff, you draft and develop one.

[ColoradoBills]

13 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

 

It would be a straightforward decision were it not for the question of the readiness of Wentz for the 2018 season.  It's not a simple matter of cap room. 

 

Like I said, I think they want to keep Foles very badly......................but then again, teams do stupid things to get a QB!

[Doc]

9 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

It would be a straightforward decision were it not for the question of the readiness of Wentz for the 2018 season.  It's not a simple matter of cap room. 

 

Obviously. 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, ColoradoBills said:

Like I said, I think they want to keep Foles very badly......................but then again, teams do stupid things to get a QB!

 

It would be prudent to wait until the preseason to gauge the heatlh and readiness of Wentz before dealing Foles.  They could still do well just as they did when dealing Bradford for a #1 pick to MIN. 

[Doc]

11 minutes ago, greeneblitz said:

In his whole career, Foles has never had even close to his trade value right now, why the hell would we want to buy so high? In all likelihood, Nick Foles is a good backup, who played big in big games, much as Frank Reich was back in the day. We need a franchise QB, to get that you don't go get a castoff, you draft and develop one.

 

The Bills traded down last year just for a chance to do something like this.  And as I said before, at 21 or 22, you're taking a chance on a lower-rated rookie QB versus a guy who won a SB thanks largely based on his play. 

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

Obviously. 

 

Must not be so obvious with your post stating they should move him sooner rather than later. 

[Doc]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

Must not be so obvious with your post stating they should move him sooner rather than later. 

 

No, what's obvious is that Wentz' injury timetable complicates the issue.

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

No, what's obvious is that Wentz' injury timetable complicates the issue.

 

Which means they should wait to assess the situation with him rather than moving Foles sooner. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

Which means they should wait to assess the situation with him rather than moving Foles sooner. 

 

They otherwise would, if it weren't for their cap issues. 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I don't think we have the WR's or the pass pro to allow Foles to put up big numbers. 

 

If im the Eagles I take my chances with Wentz and get the 2nd rd pick for Foles. 

 

Their are some solid late rd QB's in this draft that would save them a lot of cap space. 

[IgotBILLStopay]

15 hours ago, greeneblitz said:

In his whole career, Foles has never had even close to his trade value right now, why the hell would we want to buy so high? In all likelihood, Nick Foles is a good backup, who played big in big games, much as Frank Reich was back in the day. We need a franchise QB, to get that you don't go get a castoff, you draft and develop one.

The guy won owned this year's playoffs (including a superbowl) with his arm, smarts and poise. I agree the two bad seasons after his breakout year are cause for concern - but it is probable the guy has actually turned a corner in ability and confidence. And at 5.5 mill a year you cant go wrong given our QB needs. Even if we draft a QB and Foles is keeping the seat warm, he will be a decent transition QB. At this stage, I dont think he is any worse than Flacco post-SB win and he is available at a fraction of Flacco's cost.

Oh and if y'all want another reason to pursue Foles:

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/31086/best-bet-remains-for-bills-to-draft-quarterback-not-pursue-nick-foles

 

MIke Rodent says "Dont"

[Doc]

19 minutes ago, IgotBILLStopay said:

The guy won owned this year's playoffs (including a superbowl) with his arm, smarts and poise. I agree the two bad seasons after his breakout year are cause for concern - but it is probable the guy has actually turned a corner in ability and confidence. And at 5.5 mill a year you cant go wrong given our QB needs. Even if we draft a QB and Foles is keeping the seat warm, he will be a decent transition QB. At this stage, I dont think he is any worse than Flacco post-SB win and he is available at a fraction of Flacco's cost.

Oh and if y'all want another reason to pursue Foles:

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/31086/best-bet-remains-for-bills-to-draft-quarterback-not-pursue-nick-foles

 

MIke Rodent says "Dont"

 

Rodent’s a moron.  And if the Bills, or any team for that matter, trades for Foles, he won’t be making just $5.5 million a year anymore. 

[dave mcbride]

19 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The report is he tore both an ACL and an LCL and is taking longer to heal because of that. 

 

Bradford serves as "Exhibit A" of what happens when a guy with an ACL tries to come back too soon: more haste, less speed.

 

 

I think you want to flip it about.  Alex Smith set the price for an old guy (33) coming off a career season who has not been able to take his team past the Div round in 4 tries.

 

Nick Foles is gonna set the price for a 5 year younger guy with a great year as starter in his past, who just ripped off two fantastic games to take his team to the World Championship.

 

I don't think that latter gets you a discount.

LCLs aren't a big deal. They usually don't even require surgery if torn ontheir own. I feel confident that Wentz will be playing in game one.