My Case For: Lamar Jackson

[DCOrange]

51 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

I'm not high on LamaRG3 just because I'd prefer a traditional pocket passer, but if we got him without having to trade up I wouldn't hate it. 

 

The biggest ? is whether he can read NFL defenses and go through his progressions. If not he's just a rich man's Tyrod Taylor, but that might not be such a bad thing. Michael Vick wasn't great and picking apart defenses and he won a lot of games.

It’s certainly a fair question regarding going through progressions, but to that end, he’s shown far more of it than Darnold, Mayfield, or Rudolph has. Allen and Rosen are ahead of him in that regard though. I think scouts have to rely on private workouts for that stuff a lot more nowadays due to the types of offenses that are run in college. 

Edited January 21, 2018 by DCOrange

[Solomon Grundy]

3 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah, thats what I would do too for same reasons.  But I could see the Bills wanting to sign Teddy instead as he would be cheaper than TT, which I wouldn't hate either.  

 

 

Alphadawg, I've been on the Jackson train for awhile and I would rather have Bridgewater as a mentor than Tyrod. Not only because Teddy may be cheaper, but he throws with anticipation. I would hate for Lamar to pick up Tyrod's tendency of not letting it rip. I think what helped in Aaron Rodgers development was watching Favre throw into tight windows. Rodgers, like Jackson, needed to improve his footwork. Lamar's has improved reading defenses. He now needs to work on resetting his feet consistently from the pocket. I believe Jackson's ceiling is Aaron Rodgers and his floor is Michael Vick. 

43 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

 

Yeah, Bill thought Johhny Football was going to be elite.

He works for ESPN now. It's more about hot takes and media traction than analysis.

You should try and make up your own mind rather than relying on somebody else.

He also thought Landry Jones was gonna be a great NFL QB. Polian is also on record saying that he wish he would've drafted Andy Dalton over Andrew Luck. What a great evaluator of QBs!!

Edited January 21, 2018 by the skycap

[JohnC]

46 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You realize there are more than 1 way to score right at TD right?  No disrespect, but its this type of comment that drives me crazy.  The QB is only part of the offense, and our QB both runs and throws.  Its not like we were 3rd in the league in TD's because we had 20 touchdown runs by McCoy that were 80 yard each and TT never touched the ball.  TT led the offense down the field where he both used his arm and his leg to get the team in scoring position so we could score points.

 

First off, anyone who ONLY sites his passing stats throwing isn't giving a fair assessment in the first place as he also makes a big contribution with his legs.  Second, anyone who compares any QB to one of the 2 greatest QB's to ever play the game is also not giving a fair assessment.  More importantly, the scoreboard doesn't care if it was thrown in or run in...the object of the game is to score points, and in 2016 we were 3rd best at it in the whole NFL under TT's leadership of the offense during his 15 starts despite losing our WR"s to injuries, having an inept HC, and firing our OC in week 2.  

 

The QB's job is to put the team in position to score points, whether its thrown in or run in, its still 6 points.  And 2015 and 2016 are only behind the first 3 SB years as the 2 highest scoring 2 year period in Bills history.  TT led offense put up 25 points or more in 10 of his 15 games in 2016 and averaged 26 points per game.  That was better than almost all the playoff teams in 2016.

 

So again, no disrespect but your comment is not accurate.  I don't care what you or anyone thinks of TT,  you don't get to take away his contributions to the points on the board when he was part of almost every one of those scoring drives.  This guy led the Bills to snap our 17 year playoff drought and yet he still cant get respect for the positive things he did do for this team. Doesn't matter if you think we need an upgrade, thats fine, but people need to stop discrediting the things he DID do for this team just to further their biased opinion.  

You too often act as if a criticism of TT is comparable to making a demeaning comment about someone's mother. When Whaley wanted to cut TT loose was that because he was biased? If this brain trust decides to let him go will that be because they are biased? 

 

Taylor's play in the Jacksonville playoff game was an exhibition of unmatched futility. If after that game and season you don't understand why there is a strong sentiment within the organization to move on then there is little else to say other than this particular player won't be a topic of discussion for too much longer because he won't be on the team. Very often personnel decisions are tough to make. This isn't one of them. 

[Virgil]

I don’t know why, but he reminds me a lot of Geno Smith, with legs....

[Solomon Grundy]

2 minutes ago, Virgil said:

I don’t know why, but he reminds me a lot of Geno Smith, with legs....

Virgil, Geno was quite mobile too. 

[OldTimer1960]

4 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

 

....guyz, need some help as I do not get to see college ball, but have read about Jackson....is he an upscale TT and if so, would he fit the recent OC Daboll hire from what we know?.....

You can see every throw from several of his games at draftbreakdown.com

[Captain Murica]

1 hour ago, starrymessenger said:

 

Jackson threw more and for more yards. More to the point, they played in very different offences. 

It also makes little sense to compare Mayfield's or Rudolph's stat sheet with Allen's or Jackson's. The Os are very different with the pro style being more difficult and the calibre of the supporting skill position players being totally different.

Also, Lamar declared early as a junior . He produced way more touchdowns overall in 3 years than tyrod did in 4 years. 

[OldTimer1960]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You realize there are more than 1 way to score right at TD right?  No disrespect, but its this type of comment that drives me crazy.  The QB is only part of the offense, and our QB both runs and throws.  Its not like we were 3rd in the league in TD's because we had 20 touchdown runs by McCoy that were 80 yard each and TT never touched the ball.  TT led the offense down the field where he both used his arm and his leg to get the team in scoring position so we could score points.

 

First off, anyone who ONLY sites his passing stats throwing isn't giving a fair assessment in the first place as he also makes a big contribution with his legs.  Second, anyone who compares any QB to one of the 2 greatest QB's to ever play the game is also not giving a fair assessment.  More importantly, the scoreboard doesn't care if it was thrown in or run in...the object of the game is to score points, and in 2016 we were 3rd best at it in the whole NFL under TT's leadership of the offense during his 15 starts despite losing our WR"s to injuries, having an inept HC, and firing our OC in week 2.  

 

The QB's job is to put the team in position to score points, whether its thrown in or run in, its still 6 points.  And 2015 and 2016 are only behind the first 3 SB years as the 2 highest scoring 2 year period in Bills history.  TT led offense put up 25 points or more in 10 of his 15 games in 2016 and averaged 26 points per game.  That was better than almost all the playoff teams in 2016.

 

So again, no disrespect but your comment is not accurate.  I don't care what you or anyone thinks of TT,  you don't get to take away his contributions to the points on the board when he was part of almost every one of those scoring drives.  This guy led the Bills to snap our 17 year playoff drought and yet he still cant get respect for the positive things he did do for this team.  Doesn't matter if you think we need an upgrade, thats fine, but people need to stop discrediting the things he DID do for this team just to further their biased opinion.  

I appreciate that the Bills snapped the drought with him at QB.  Check my posts on this - I have said many times that the Bills could and have done much worse at QB than Tyrod gave them.  However, the evidence is overwhelming that he is a very limited NFL passer.  Just check Watkin's, Woods' and Goodwin's stats in their first year with other QBs -or- check Clay's, Benjamin's and Mathew's stats before Taylor was their QB.

 

Yes, Taylor can run, but teams bottled him up well this year.  They are not really pushing the pocket and are daring him to beat them passing.  He has not shown that he can make defenses pay for that.

 

i like and respect Taylor, but he is flat not good enough to be the starting QB on a contender.  He may find a starting gig on a bottom 25% of the league team, but that team is already looking for his replacement before he even gets there.

[Tatonka68]

1 hour ago, FearLess Price said:

 

 

Did you watch tape?

 

Its obvious he goes through 2-4 reads on certain plays.

 

1st read is primary receiver, 2nd is to run.

2 hours ago, Captain Murica said:

To the people saying Lamar is the same as TT are wrong, and pretty ignorant. Just because both are African American, and mobile QBs doesn’t mean they’re comparable at all. Just by comparing their passing stats it’s not even close in how TT wasn’t in the same league as LJ as a passer.

I’ve thought that in the past and recognize it was wrong. I’d be happy with Lamar Jackson. 

 

TT college passing stats (4 years) 

 

						Passing
Year ▲	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
Career	Virginia Tech					495	865	57.2	7017	8.1	8.1	44	20	137
*2007	Virginia Tech	ACC	FR	QB	11	72	134	53.7	927	6.9	6.7	5	3	119.7
*2008	Virginia Tech	ACC	SO	QB	12	99	173	57.2	1036	6.0	4.4	2	7	103.3
*2009	Virginia Tech	ACC	JR	QB	13	136	243	56.0	2311	9.5	9.7	13	5	149.4
*2010	Virginia Tech	ACC	SR	QB	14	188	315	59.7	2743	8.7	9.5	24	5	154.8

 

 

Lamar Jackson’s college passing stats (3 years)

 

						Passing
Year	School	Conf	Class	Pos	G	Cmp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	TD	Int	Rate
Career	Louisville					619	1086	57.0	9043	8.3	8.5	69	27	142.9
*2015	Louisville	ACC	FR	QB	12	135	247	54.7	1840	7.4	7.0	12	8	126.8
*2016	Louisville	ACC	SO	QB	13	230	409	56.2	3543	8.7	9.1	30	9	148.8
2017	Louisville	ACC	JR	QB	13	254	430	59.1	3660	8.5	8.7	27	10	146.6

 

 

 

LJ and Tyrod are the same damn p!ayer, neither can read a defense. Both suck against quality defenses and pad stats against bad defenses.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Tatonka68

[Johnny Hammersticks]

1 minute ago, Tatonka68 said:

1st read is primary receiver, 2nd is to run.

 

Fake news.  You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about, friendo.

[Tatonka68]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

Fake news.  You obviously have no idea what you’re talking about, friendo.

Nope watched him play, cannot read a defense and pads stats against sub par teams. Maybe CFL not NFL.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Tatonka68

[Turk71]

51 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

It’s certainly a fair question regarding going through progressions, but to that end, he’s shown far more of it than Darnold, Mayfield, or Rudolph has. Allen and Rosen are ahead of him in that regard though. I think scouts have to rely on private workouts for that stuff a lot more nowadays due to the types of offenses that are run in college. 

I was just watching Mayfield and he looked like he processed the field very quickly and made great decisions. Watched Jackson film too and there is no way he is ahead in that regard imo. Think both of them are risky proposition with high ceilings.

[Alphadawg7]

51 minutes ago, the skycap said:

Alphadawg, I've been on the Jackson train for awhile and I would rather have Bridgewater as a mentor than Tyrod. Not only because Teddy may be cheaper, but he throws with anticipation. I would hate for Lamar to pick up Tyrod's tendency of not letting it rip. I think what helped in Aaron Rodgers development was watching Favre throw into tight windows. Rodgers, like Jackson, needed to improve his footwork. Lamar's has improved reading defenses. He now needs to work on resetting his feet consistently from the pocket. I believe Jackson's ceiling is Aaron Rodgers and his floor is Michael Vick. 

He also thought Landry Jones was gonna be a great NFL QB. Polian is also on record saying that he wish he would've drafted Andy Dalton over Andrew Luck. What a great evaluator of QBs!!

 

Yeah, I do like singing Teddy too, he's the one QB FA I want the most outside of Cousins.  But signing Teddy and drafting a QB high still.  I do think TT is still in play with Lamar though, but you also make a good point of not wanting the same tendencies now that you bring that up.  Thats a very good point.

38 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You too often act as if a criticism of TT is comparable to making a demeaning comment about someone's mother. When Whaley wanted to cut TT loose was that because he was biased? If this brain trust decides to let him go will that be because they are biased? 

 

Taylor's play in the Jacksonville playoff game was an exhibition of unmatched futility. If after that game and season you don't understand why there is a strong sentiment within the organization to move on then there is little else to say other than this particular player won't be a topic of discussion for too much longer because he won't be on the team. Very often personnel decisions are tough to make. This isn't one of them. 

 

Criticism is fine, to say the offense being 3rd in TD's in his 15 games had nothing to do with him is absurd, and thats what I responded too.  People go way out of their to take any and all credit from any success the offense has while TT is QB.  Its utterly ridiculous.  There is a VERY big difference of pointing out his weaknesses and saying that everything the offense accomplished had nothing to do with him.  Thats what I tire of...and thats what my reply was about that you responded to.

 

Tyrod has clear weaknesses, always has.  But the naysayers on him grossly exaggerate how "bad" he is and work hard to discredit take away from what he did do positive just to further that opinion.

[Ol Dirty B]

This would be the worst place for Jackson.

 

The coaches already showed they won't support a mobile qb and use that to their advantage. He may be able produced from the pocket, he's shown an effort of doing this in college.

 

But with the great white American hope behind him, I hope this coach staff doesn't subject another black qb to the overwhelming stupidity that is a buffalo bills fan. 

[purple haze]

4 hours ago, PIZ said:

 

Just scary when we are coming off how many years of horrid QB play?  I want a sure bet.  Daboll is probably the best place though for Lamar Jackson.

No guarantees on a drafted player.  Great could come from any round and so could a bust.  You want a sure thing then you want Cousins.  You know what he'll give you.

[Alphadawg7]

18 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I appreciate that the Bills snapped the drought with him at QB.  Check my posts on this - I have said many times that the Bills could and have done much worse at QB than Tyrod gave them.  However, the evidence is overwhelming that he is a very limited NFL passer.  Just check Watkin's, Woods' and Goodwin's stats in their first year with other QBs -or- check Clay's, Benjamin's and Mathew's stats before Taylor was their QB.

 

Yes, Taylor can run, but teams bottled him up well this year.  They are not really pushing the pocket and are daring him to beat them passing.  He has not shown that he can make defenses pay for that.

 

i like and respect Taylor, but he is flat not good enough to be the starting QB on a contender.  He may find a starting gig on a bottom 25% of the league team, but that team is already looking for his replacement before he even gets there.

 

Not much wrong with any of this, but you do understand that this is a very different post than just flat out saying Taylor had little to do with the scoring and then compared his throwing TD stats only to the one of the greatest players in NFL history?  

 

That is where I get frustrated...I dont have an issue with the criticism of his weaknesses, its warranted and accurate.  But even with the weaknesses the Bills have had some of the highest scoring seasons in team history, and he was a significant part of that.  To say he wasn't just is a completely false statement.  Taylor gave everything he had to this team, and he had some special moments and incredible plays.  He also led this team to the playoffs for the first time in 17 years during a year everyone said we were a 4 to 5 win team and tanking.  He deserves more credit than he gets by fans here.  He isnt the long term solution, but he was a lot better than many gave him credit for.

[Turk71]

6 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

This would be the worst place for Jackson.

 

The coaches already showed they won't support a mobile qb and use that to their advantage. He may be able produced from the pocket, he's shown an effort of doing this in college.

 

But with the great white American hope behind him, I hope this coach staff doesn't subject another black qb to the overwhelming stupidity that is a buffalo bills fan. 

Is it because he is a mobile qb or because he is black? Are you overwhelmingly stupid or it just other Bills fans? 

[Ol Dirty B]

9 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

Is it because he is a mobile qb or because he is black? Are you overwhelmingly stupid or it just other Bills fans? 

 

Well, it's quite simple and they were in these things they call paragraphs. We use them to separate thoughts.

 

Coaches have shown they won't take advantage of an athletic qb, which is fine. It's a difference in philosophy, how they went about it, I'll disagree with.

 

Buffalo bills fans obsession with the great white hope is a joke, it's flat out wrong. Peterman sucks. I was out at a bar for the playoff game, and people actually cheered when they saw peterman coming in. It's a joke and embarrassing. People are warming up to Alex Smith and he sucks too. He went a whole season without throwing a td pass to a wr. So yea it is a black thing going on with the fan base in my opinion. If you feel offended by that it's probably because their is some truth to it.

 

But yea you're simple. 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Ol Dirty B

[Johnny Hammersticks]

19 minutes ago, Ol Dirty B said:

This would be the worst place for Jackson.

 

The coaches already showed they won't support a mobile qb and use that to their advantage. He may be able produced from the pocket, he's shown an effort of doing this in college.

 

But with the great white American hope behind him, I hope this coach staff doesn't subject another black qb to the overwhelming stupidity that is a buffalo bills fan. 

 

You do know we just hired a new OC, correct?  One, in fact, that is regarded as an OC who adapts his offense to capitalize on the strength of his QB and other play makers...

[Ol Dirty B]

1 minute ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

 

You do know we just hired a new OC, correct?  One, in fact, that is regarded as an OC who adapts his offense to capitalize on the strength of his QB and other play makers...

 

I have read he likes to capitalize on strengths vs weaknesses. More on a week to week basis though, and i hope he does that. However, I can't go off the unknown. McDermott hired a guy originally who wanted a pocket passer under center. I think it's fair to assume that's what he'd prefer. 

 

What I'm saying already happened, what you're talking about is something you'd hope would change. Do you want Tyrod back? Or a mobile qb? That is kind of the argument you are making, or are you just making an argument for the sake of it?