I'm curious in regards to Tyrod's skill set

[SinatraSinger]

OK, help me out all you posters that think that Tyrod is a viable starting QB.

 

I will admit that I have never played organized football just alot of sandlot football growing up.  I have been watching football for 50+ years.  During those years I have seen great, good, medicore and poor players at every position.  I've been watching Tyrod now for 2.5 years and I do not see how anyone can consider him a viable starter on any NFL team.

 

So what I am looking for is to be educated.  As I said I have not played organized ball and I have found over the years when reading posts on this site as well as others that people that have actually played this game have a better insite when it comes to these sorts of things.

 

So please tell me what strengths and skill set Tyrod has that makes you believe he can be a viable starter in the NFL?

 

Thanks

[tonawandarock]

1) He’s a great scrambler(but he won’t throw unless he scrambles first)

2) He has a great arm(but no accuracy)

3) He can throw short(<5 yd) or long(>50 yd) 

4) He doesn’t throw interceptions(See #3)

5) He’s consistent(170 yds a game,  produces about 11pts. /game)

6) He’s better than EJ Manuel(I guess)

[SinatraSinger]

9 minutes ago, tonawandarock said:

1) He’s a great scrambler(but he won’t throw unless he scrambles first)

2) He has a great arm(but no accuracy)

3) He can throw short(<5 yd) or long(>50 yd) 

4) He doesn’t throw interceptions(See #3)

5) He’s consistent(170 yds a game,  produces about 11pts. /game)

6) He’s better than EJ Manuel(I guess)

Do you think that these make him a viable starter as a QB in the NFL?

 

 

To all I am serious with this question.  I guess I want to know why aproximately half of this board think he has the skills and the other half doesn't.  

[BuffaloMatt]

1 minute ago, SinatraSinger said:

Do you think that these make him a viable starter as a QB in the NFL?

 

 

To all I am serious with this question.  I guess I want to know why aproximately half of this board think he has the skills and the other half doesn't.  

If you want to win 6-8 games a year.

[tonawandarock]

I all seriousness-I don’t believe he is a viable starter.  Along with the bottom 10-12 QB’s in the league.  He’s had 3 seasons to evolve into a quality QB and he’s no better than he ever was.   His accuracy is a big problem.  Intermediate passes are not a a part of his game and he uses his legs to compensate.  That formula will work as a backup coming off the bench but the production is too inconsistent to win on a regular basis.  

 

 

 

[Starr Almighty]

When an opposing teams game plan is to make your QB be a QB that is a very bad sign. Trust me none of the teams the Bills have faced have ever said to beat them we gotta make McCoy be a RB.

[Maine-iac]

If you have Greg Roman or Andy Reid you can score 23 to 26 ppg with a QB like Taylor.  How many games you win depend on if your team can play defense and not get 11 penalties a game, make it's kicks ect.  If you have Hackett, Dennison, Marty ball type 0C's then you probably are going to want a different QB.

[tonawandarock]

Um-didn’t we have Greg Roman as an OC.  Why did he get fired?  

[Boatdrinks]

5 minutes ago, tonawandarock said:

Um-didn’t we have Greg Roman as an OC.  Why did he get fired?  

He got fired because NFL protocol says an 0-2 start in year 2 of a HC tenure = must offer up a coordinator for sacrifice. Rex wasn't going to fire his windbag brother D.C. and certainly wouldn't can himself. Therefore GR had to go. 

[Maine-iac]

Roman/Lynn same offense and Roman coached for a whole season prior to that.  You think Dennison will  come any where near what Roman/Lynn scored?  Do you think next year he will?  Sean Payton, Andy Reid, Greg Roman always put up points.  Dennison put up 20 and 22 ppg before coming here.  0ur defenses gave up more points than his offenses were scoring .............. if you want two good insights as to why we lost last year and why we will continue to lose now.

[Boatdrinks]

56 minutes ago, SinatraSinger said:

Do you think that these make him a viable starter as a QB in the NFL?

 

 

To all I am serious with this question.  I guess I want to know why aproximately half of this board think he has the skills and the other half doesn't.  

 

He has the skills to run a specifically structured offense that minimizes his flaws as a passer. You can still win games that way, but it requires a strong defense that generates turnovers, gives up TDs grudgingly and solid ST's. Most NFL coordinators aren't interested in such a player because all rules now favor the pass and emphasize having a QB that can take advantage. Half of fans are ok with the former and the other half want to find a good passing QB that will stay in the pocket and deliver the ball on time to playmaking WRs. It's kind of going with the devil you know, as opposed to the one you don't know and don't know where to find. 

[BobChalmers]

1. He throws a good deep ball when he has time and a fast WR.

2. He tends to protect the ball.

3. He's a good leader (as far as we can tell).

4. His scrambling ability does challenge opposing DC's.

 

It's not nothing.  He's been proven to be a "legitimate" NFL starter, and he has a winning record with an organization that has not had one in a long time.

 

IMO that's not enough - and I wanted Peterman to start ever since the Ravens preseason game.  TT lacks accuracy, doesn't understand (or otherwise can't execute) timing with receivers' routes, and is among the slowest in the league at getting rid of the ball.  All of that adds up to 3-and-outs and a lot of sacks.

Edited November 17, 2017 by BobChalmers

[Boatdrinks]

2 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Roman/Lynn same offense and Roman coached for a whole season prior to that.  You think Dennison will  come any where near what Roman/Lynn scored?  Do you think next year he will?  Sean Payton, Andy Reid, Greg Roman always put up points.  Dennison put up 20 and 22 ppg before coming here.  0ur defenses gave up more points than his offenses were scoring .............. if you want two good insights as to why we lost last year and why we will continue to lose now.

 

 I do not. Dennsion is a middling choice as an OC at best, and wasn't the first or even second choice for the job by all accounts. If Roman/ Lynn were currently the Bills OC , fans likely wouldn't even be having this discussion. Taylor would absolutely be doing a better job in that offense. However, changes were made and this is what the Bills currently have. I think the Offense could be far more productive with Peterman at the helm than Taylor, especially at this point when there is plenty of film and the flaws are out there for all to see. 

[Maine-iac]

10 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

 

He has the skills to run a specifically structured offense that minimizes his flaws as a passer. You can still win games that way, but it requires a strong defense that generates turnovers, gives up TDs grudgingly and solid ST's. Most NFL coordinators aren't interested in such a player because all rules now favor the pass and emphasize having a QB that can take advantage. Half of fans are ok with the former and the other half want to find a good passing QB that will stay in the pocket and deliver the ball on time to playmaking WRs. It's kind of going with the devil you know, as opposed to the one you don't know and don't know where to find. 

I like Taylor.  People get that and hate that which is fine.  If we had a Rogers type prospect on the bench or had slid out of the playoff hunt I wouldn't even bat an eye at them yanking Taylor. 

5 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

 

 I do not. Dennsion is a middling choice as an OC at best, and wasn't the first or even second choice for the job by all accounts. If Roman/ Lynn were currently the Bills OC , fans likely wouldn't even be having this discussion. Taylor would absolutely be doing a better job in that offense. However, changes were made and this is what the Bills currently have. I think the Offense could be far more productive with Peterman at the helm than Taylor, especially at this point when there is plenty of film and the flaws are out there for all to see. 

That's my issue with pulling Taylor.  I don't think they'll be better with Peterman because of Dennison.  I think in a best case scenario you'll see the 2015/2016 Broncos.  That's with KB because the Broncos have good recievers.  Taylor has played most of the year in that turd offense with guys off the street.

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Maine-iac

[Boatdrinks]

Just now, Maine-iac said:

I like Taylor.  People get that and hate that which is fine.  If we had a Rogers type prospect on the bench or had slid out of the playoff hunt I wouldn't even bat an eye at them yanking Taylor. 

 Well sure ,if only they had a Rodgers type prospect. I like Taylor too, but I expected a decline in the offense this season due to the changes that were made and Tyrods limitations in running such an offense. There was a chance he could make a big leap, but unlikely at this point. Perhaps some hate Taylor but I'm not sure why. He is what he is. I give the coaches credit in trying to save the season and make the playoffs instead of waiting until it was too late with Tyrod at QB. Switching after that made little sense to me. Taylor isn't a good fit for this type of offense. 

[Maine-iac]

He really looked pretty damn good the Jets game.  A lot of fumbles, penalties, bad clock management.  The Saints game was a dumpster fire.  I just don't see Peterman while there's still a chance at playoffs.   Everything was going great up until the Jets game and the wheels essentially came off the defense not the offense.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

2 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

He really looked pretty damn good the Jets game.  A lot of fumbles, penalties, bad clock management.  The Saints game was a dumpster fire.  I just don't see Peterman while there's still a chance at playoffs.   Everything was going great up until the Jets game and the wheels essentially came off the defense not the offense.

 

so you're saying the last two games had nothing to do with the offense and everything to do with the defense?

 

hot take

 

not to really insult you, but you must be blind. it fell on both sides of the ball

[Boatdrinks]

2 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

He really looked pretty damn good the Jets game.  A lot of fumbles, penalties, bad clock management.  The Saints game was a dumpster fire.  I just don't see Peterman while there's still a chance at playoffs.   Everything was going great up until the Jets game and the wheels essentially came off the defense not the offense.

 The wheels came off the defense , but don't overlook what was happening on the other side of the ball. Teams decided to keep Tyrod in the pocket and he couldn't beat them. An ex QB and an ex DB were both saying he needs to throw the ball here or he needs to go to the one on one on the outside. Tyrod will not or cannot take what defenses are now giving him. McD expected more of the same from Lynn, who used to make game plans around Tyrods limitations. If the Bills lost to the Jets 38-35 and the Saints 40- 30 this move is probably not made. It doesn't matter what fans think, McD didn't believe he could win with Taylor anymore . 

[Maine-iac]

I was talking about the Jets game.  I said as much.  Go back and look at it.  The offense was moving the ball.  The defense was getting gashed.  So no insult taken.  You read it/misunderstood it or weren't watching.

3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

 The wheels came off the defense , but don't overlook what was happening on the other side of the ball. Teams decided to keep Tyrod in the pocket and he couldn't beat them. An ex QB and an ex DB were both saying he needs to throw the ball here or he needs to go to the one on one on the outside. Tyrod will not or cannot take what defenses are now giving him. McD expected more of the same from Lynn, who used to make game plans around Tyrods limitations. If the Bills lost to the Jets 38-35 and the Saints 40- 30 this move is probably not made. It doesn't matter what fans think, McD didn't believe he could win with Taylor anymore . 

He didn't beat them because of bad clock management, multiple fumbles, and the defense giving up 200 yards rushing.  He played the QB position well in that game and most said the same after the game. 

 

ps the response merging .............. do multiple posts take up too much space on the internet?

Edited November 17, 2017 by Maine-iac

[KDIGGZ]

Lol even the people that like Tyrod admit that you need a good defense and good special teams to win. That doesn't sound like a good QB to me

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

6 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

Lol even the people that like Tyrod admit that you need a good defense and good special teams to win. That doesn't sound like a good QB to me

I’d give you props but I maxed out on the  limit earlier.  

The team had to play near perfect  for Tyrod to lead the team to a convincing win.  

 

I’ve been welcoming them to the Dark Side 

Edited November 18, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

30 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

I was talking about the Jets game.  I said as much.  Go back and look at it.  The offense was moving the ball.  The defense was getting gashed.  So no insult taken.  You read it/misunderstood it or weren't watching.

 

 

yeah. I misunderstood, had just smoked my medicine, my bad. 

 

unfortunately I was watching.

[Strethor]

15 minutes ago, kdiggz said:

Lol even the people that like Tyrod admit that you need a good defense and good special teams to win. That doesn't sound like a good QB to me

 

The collective sigh of Bills fans when they realize the opponent is up 7 with Tyrod at QB

[Starr Almighty]

1 hour ago, Maine-iac said:

I like Taylor.  People get that and hate that which is fine.  If we had a Rogers type prospect on the bench or had slid out of the playoff hunt I wouldn't even bat an eye at them yanking Taylor. 

That's my issue with pulling Taylor.  I don't think they'll be better with Peterman because of Dennison.  I think in a best case scenario you'll see the 2015/2016 Broncos.  That's with KB because the Broncos have good recievers.  Taylor has played most of the year in that turd offense with guys off the street.

 

He had Watkins, Woods and Goodwin before this year. They all seem to be doing fine on their new teams. We never saw Woods play this well here. If only I could put a finger on what it was. 

[billsfan60]

After watching taylor for 2 1/2 years I've come to the conclusion he has all the physical skills anybody could ask for, and more. He has the leadership traits to command an offense. He sets a positive example for his teammates. And all of that is worthless if he can't process what he is seeing on the field and lacks the confidence in himself and his WRs to execute a game plan.

 

When things are going well, he'll stay the course and not screw things up. But when everything turns to crap he isn't capable of using his skills to take over a game and exert  his will on the outcome. Unless your team is perfectly balanced taylor's not a starting QB.

[Maine-iac]

33 minutes ago, Starr Almighty said:

He had Watkins, Woods and Goodwin before this year. They all seem to be doing fine on their new teams. We never saw Woods play this well here. If only I could put a finger on what it was. 

Woods, Watkins, and Goodwin never made it through a season without gettting hurt.  They were also all playing in a run first offense that averaged 50 ypg more running the ball than this years team.  Again I'm not lamenting the switch to Peterman.  That writing was on the wall.  I'm lamenting the switch to Dennison.  It is the very type of switch that has defined the "drought"  in Buffalo.  Two years from now we'll be hiring some untested offensive prodigy because we went bust with a 1st round pick of a QB and inevitably he'll bring in a dud of a DC and we'll start this all over again.

[Boatdrinks]

5 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Woods, Watkins, and Goodwin never made it through a season without gettting hurt.  They were also all playing in a run first offense that averaged 50 ypg more running the ball than this years team.  Again I'm not lamenting the switch to Peterman.  That writing was on the wall.  I'm lamenting the switch to Dennison.  It is the very type of switch that has defined the "drought"  in Buffalo.  Two years from now we'll be hiring some untested offensive prodigy because we went bust with a 1st round pick of a QB and inevitably he'll bring in a dud of a DC and we'll start this all over again.

 Well the key there is not to draft the dud first round pick. McBeane have set it up to be defined by their drafts. Really, most GMs are as it's the only way to put a team together. Changing the HC and then the OC assured that the run offense would take a step back. That's just what happens. The Bills would be well served by keeping a HC for more than two or three years, for starters. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, SinatraSinger said:

OK, help me out all you posters that think that Tyrod is a viable starting QB.

 

I will admit that I have never played organized football just alot of sandlot football growing up.  I have been watching football for 50+ years.  During those years I have seen great, good, medicore and poor players at every position.  I've been watching Tyrod now for 2.5 years and I do not see how anyone can consider him a viable starter on any NFL team.

 

So what I am looking for is to be educated.  As I said I have not played organized ball and I have found over the years when reading posts on this site as well as others that people that have actually played this game have a better insite when it comes to these sorts of things.

 

So please tell me what strengths and skill set Tyrod has that makes you believe he can be a viable starter in the NFL?

 

Thanks

Can we start with you defining what you mean exactly by "viable starting QB"?

With Tyrod Taylor under center in 2015 the Bills were 12th in offense; in 2016 the Bills were 11th in offense.  That's after the famous London game in '15 and the final game in '16 where Manuel started.  Without those, they were better - 9th and 10th I think.  In those same years, the Bills D was 15th and 16th. 

 

It seems fairly reasonable to believe that with a top-5 D as the Bills had in 2014, we would have won a couple more games and seen some playoffs.  So in the sense of "able to lead a team to playoffs", Taylor demonstrated he has the skills to be a viable starting QB in an appropriate offense - with a varied blocking scheme and top rushing attack, enough passing game to keep the D a bit honest, and the ability to gain yards with his feet.

He is probably not a viable NFL starter in a conventional timing-based pass-first WCO.

[Starr Almighty]

15 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Woods, Watkins, and Goodwin never made it through a season without gettting hurt.  They were also all playing in a run first offense that averaged 50 ypg more running the ball than this years team.  Again I'm not lamenting the switch to Peterman.  That writing was on the wall.  I'm lamenting the switch to Dennison.  It is the very type of switch that has defined the "drought"  in Buffalo.  Two years from now we'll be hiring some untested offensive prodigy because we went bust with a 1st round pick of a QB and inevitably he'll bring in a dud of a DC and we'll start this all over again.

The point is I don't think an OC exists that can make TT a good passer. He is what he is. He's an average to below average QB.

[tonawandarock]

I'm not so sure 2015/16 total stats tell the true story on offense.   From my memory this offense got of to notoriously bad starts and would disappear for long stretches during most games.  Many points and yardage were accumulated when the game was no longer in doubt.   Feel free to rebut my recollections ...

[Bills Fan of St Augustine]

So he's an average to below average passer. Not bottom five in the league. So I guess that means he is a viable starting QB.  On a really good team, he is adequate. On a mediocre to below average team, he can't carry the team to the playoffs like a Favre, Brees, Ryan or Brady. I think that's what we have. So viable, yes. Ideal, no way.

[Ray Finkel]

We get games like 10-7 against Ravens last year and 9-3 against Carolina this year.  Different OC's but same result.  He can't move the ball consistently.  He will not throw the ball unless the receiver is wide open.  Good QB's let their receivers make plays when they are not open.

[tonawandarock]

20 hours ago, tonawandarock said:

I'm not so sure 2015/16 total stats tell the true story on offense.   From my memory this offense got of to notoriously bad starts and would disappear for long stretches during most games.  Many points and yardage were accumulated when the game was no longer in doubt.   Feel free to rebut my recollections ...

Well i did my own research on teamrankings.com.                2015                      2016

                                                            

                                                            1st Q Points(NFL Rank)      5.4(7)                    4.9(13)

                                                             2nd                                        6.4(19)                  6.2(23)

                                                              3rd                                        4.9(15)                   6.9(4)

                                                             4th                                          7.0(14)                  7.0(11)

 

Note the 2016 btw. 1st/2nd Qtr. ranks(fall behind) and 3rd/4th ranks( padding stats but not winning i.e., Seattle game)

Edited November 18, 2017 by tonawandarock

[tonawandarock]

2 hours ago, Strethor said:

 

The collective sigh of Bills fans when they realize the opponent is up 7 with Tyrod at QB

so true-happens to me in the second quarter

[moshermw]

Watkins, Woods and Goodwin were hurt more than half the time.

 

TT and the Bills were not 0-16 the lat 2 seasons. When at least one or two of them were healthy, Tyrod balled out and the Bills won - crazy thought.

 

When they didn't it was when the D was allowing Ajai to run for 200 +.

3 hours ago, Starr Almighty said:

He had Watkins, Woods and Goodwin before this year. They all seem to be doing fine on their new teams. We never saw Woods play this well here. If only I could put a finger on what it was. 

 

[tonawandarock]

5 minutes ago, moshermw said:

Watkins, Woods and Goodwin were hurt more than half the time.

 

TT and the Bills were not 0-16 the lat 2 seasons. When at least one or two of them were healthy, Tyrod balled out and the Bills won - crazy thought.

 

When they didn't it was when the D was allowing Ajai to run for 200 +.

 

Newsflash!  Only Bills receivers get hurt and miss games!   

 

[moshermw]

1 minute ago, tonawandarock said:

Newsflash!  Only Bills receivers get hurt and miss games!   

 

Can you, right now, without looking it up, name their  (Woods, Watkins, Goodwin) backups - 2015, 2016 only please.

1 minute ago, moshermw said:

Can you, right now, without looking it up, name their  (Woods, Watkins, Goodwin) backups - 2015, 2016 only please.

Take a lap.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Taylor has many good traits.  

 

Unfortunately he lacked the one trait that kept him from retaining the stating job.  

[LABILLBACKER]

The problem with Tyrod is he requires a very specific offense to take advantage of his skills. Very few teams will be willing to change their system for him. His extreme "safe" play and unwillingness to throw wr's open will always be his downfall .

[moshermw]

OP,

 

Just resolve in your own mind how the New Orleans game and the Jest game are different from these two - all the data you need - hint -  different OC, same QB:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahJAelqtBm8

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeNf-axc_4s

 

Then take a lap.