Worst WR corps ever? + collateral damage to DropZone Jones

[Coach Tuesday]

 

Um, Clay left early

Other clay

[/dev/null]

 

Um, Clay left early

 

 

Other clay

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

So your saying a later rd QB that was pushing the starter in practice shouldn't get a chance because he's not a top 10 pick?

 

Seattle would've missed out on Wilson with that line of thinking.

When was Peterman ever pushing Taylor in practice? I don't believe that ever happened. MAYBE one practice? Maybe?

 

Now, pre-season, yes, Taylor struggled quite a bit. But so did Peterman. Taylor's struggles were against 1st string defenders. Peterman's struggles were against 3rd string and guys out of the league. Taylor has also played well 3 out of 5 games this year. And as for Turbitzky, he actually looked good in preseason, much better than Peterman.

 

I don't see the similarities either. Especially when you look at the team records.

[sjjr]

Nick O'Leary has been very consistent and thought he played well.

 

Zay Jones made a great catch in the end zone but was out of bounds. He did drop one and had one he got his hands on but was over his head. Just seems like him and Taylor are out of rhythm. Still think he has a bright future and will have the bye week to work on the rapport with the QB.

 

Don't think the WRs were the reason the Bills lost the game. The OL and DL didn't win enough in key moments. Taylor was ok but needed to be better in the red zone and late in the game to win there. And AJ Green is on the best receivers in the game and can win games...he showed that.

[Patrick Duffy]

Maybe Zay Jones's career will start out similar to TO's. Sucked at 1st and dropped damn near everything thrown to him. One can only hope this kid can somehow get it going. Otherwise we will be looking at James Hardy part 2 (god rest his soul).

 

But this kid is downright awful right now. I'm at that point to when I see he is about to get thrown a pass, I just know it's going to get dropped.

[Wayne Arnold]

 

There were several drops today.

 

Jones dropped 2. I recall Tate dropping one that would have put us in field goal range on a 3rd and very long. I'm sure there were others.

 

Our wide receivers are the worst in the league. It's unbelievable how bad they are.

 

Can someone post some evidence of this? I don't know how I missed these drops but I did and I'd like to see them.

[Thurman#1]

This is worst WR corps the Bills have EVER fielded.

 

Worst in the NFL right now.......that is bad enough.........but the worst EVER fielded by this woeful franchise.........that took some doing by McDermott/Beane.

 

Two games lost already because of the Watkins trade..........and the collateral damage is also becoming very significant.

 

A second and third round pick were dealt to acquire the pick to select Zay Jones............and this kid is SHOOK to the core........might be the fastest any Bills player has ever needed a "change of scenery".

 

The bottom line is that Drop Zone was not prepared to be a feature WR.........he should have been eased in as a big slot against nickel and dime corners not starting early in the season against boundary 1's and 2's.

 

Additionally........with no concerted effort to acquire even a serviceable NFL quality deep threat........the formula for offensive success has been diluted resulting in an unrecognizable swill.

 

The key stat for Bills RB's was yards before contact.......that room was created mostly by stretching the D vertically thru the combination of Taylor's athleticism and his ability to get the ball deep to good deep threats like Watkins, Goodwin and Hogan.

 

Without that.......the league's second highest paid RB Shady McCoy looks like garbage averaging 3.2 ypc and no rushing TD's nearly 1/3 of the way thru the season....... behind what is MOSTLY the same OL still trying to do a lot of the same things that worked before.

 

This is a developing offensive disaster for a VERY OLD TEAM that was built to win now..........and McDermott is not oblivious to it........the second question of his PC was "why didn't you do more for your WR corps before the season?" and he was on it like he has been thinking about it a WHOLE LOT. It was bad enough not getting a legit #2 wideout in the winter/spring.......but then trading your #1.......awful.

 

 

 

This is absolutely NOT a team that was built to win now.

 

Their primary emphasis is in building for the future. They hoped they could also win now but that was certainly NOT their main goal. Trading Sammy was a move for the future, and as it is likely to give us a chance to select a QB early, it looks like a damn good move.

[BADOLBILZ]

 

 

 

This is absolutely NOT a team that was built to win now.

 

Their primary emphasis is in building for the future. They hoped they could also win now but that was certainly NOT their main goal. Trading Sammy was a move for the future, and as it is likely to give us a chance to select a QB early, it looks like a damn good move.

 

 

It's the second oldest team in the NFL and probably the oldest roster they've fielded since the drought began.

 

They kept and doubled down on veteran players because they were trying to win NOW.............this was lost on some of you who thought they were tanking (and apparently still lost on you even as they face the likelihood of not being able to get up near the top of the draft even if they trade their entire draft to move up).

[NoSaint]

 

 

It's the second oldest team in the NFL and probably the oldest roster they've fielded since the drought began.

 

They kept and doubled down on veteran players because they were trying to win NOW.............this was lost on some of you who thought they were tanking (and apparently still lost on you even as they face the likelihood of not being able to get up near the top of the draft even if they trade their entire draft to move up).

If genuinely building to win now, we are screwed, as we didn't do that well.

 

I say it's trying to stockpile 2018 resources while maintaining vet leadership in hopes of keeping some semblance of culture- once you lose the roster and have the stink of failure it's hard to rebound... the off-season felt like "say the right things but actually set the bar low, clear it comfortably and then add a bunch talent that will hopefully buy into your overachiever culture too"

[Augie]

If genuinely building to win now, we are screwed, as we didn't do that well.

I say it's trying to stockpile 2018 resources while maintaining vet leadership in hopes of keeping some semblance of culture- once you lose the roster and have the stink of failure it's hard to rebound... the off-season felt like "say the right things but actually set the bar low, clear it comfortably and then add a bunch talent that will hopefully buy into your overachiever culture too"

I thought that was very well said.

[Thurman#1]

 

You are right about the drops because I guarantee you K Clay dropped more than one pass that was thrown his way this year. In fact, I'm pretty sure he has dropped every pass thrown his way this year with the exception of one. Gee, I wonder why Tyrod doesn't want to throw him the ball? It is amazing Tyrod would ever throw him the ball again.

 

This receiving corps is so bad, that I swear I saw Logan Thomas lined up as a wide out more than once in the Bengals game. WTF was that about?

 

When the best active receiver on your team is Brandon Tate - your friggin receiving corps SUCKS donkey dong!

 

 

That's some pretty serious exaggeration there, dude. Not sure if this has been updated to include this week's results yet, but in the first four games Clay had one drop. One.

 

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=nfl&rank=232&type=receiving

Edited October 10, 2017 by Thurman#1

[BillnutinHouston]

Thing is, if tyrod just steps up a bit he has about another second to get the ball off. Could have hit our man on the hash on the last drive. I'm really not sure why he won't shuffle forwards, usually he is good at buying himself time.

 

Tyrod is all about scrambling laterally. He never, ever steps up in the pocket.

Maybe Zay Jones's career will start out similar to TO's. Sucked at 1st and dropped damn near everything thrown to him. One can only hope this kid can somehow get it going. Otherwise we will be looking at James Hardy part 2 (god rest his soul).

 

But this kid is downright awful right now. I'm at that point to when I see he is about to get thrown a pass, I just know it's going to get dropped.

I have a feeling Zay is going to turn out just fine.

[BADOLBILZ]

If genuinely building to win now, we are screwed, as we didn't do that well.

 

I say it's trying to stockpile 2018 resources while maintaining vet leadership in hopes of keeping some semblance of culture- once you lose the roster and have the stink of failure it's hard to rebound... the off-season felt like "say the right things but actually set the bar low, clear it comfortably and then add a bunch talent that will hopefully buy into your overachiever culture too"

 

 

That's not far off IMO........but where you are wrong is that it's not just veteran leadership on this team..........that's not really an accurate representation AT ALL........it's veteran leaders, veteran starters, veteran depth and veteran special teamers.

 

Out with the young....almost all of the recent early round draft picks.........Watkins, Darby, Ragland, Kujo and now John Miller........and in with the old.

 

The way they are being built........if they AREN'T the oldest team in the NFL next year then they will likely be a bad football team.

 

That is not the direction you want to go in year 2 as a young HC.........you can't build culture with a mediocre showing in year one and then take lumps the next couple of years.

 

The LIKELIHOOD is that Tyrod will be back as will A LOT of the vets..........and probably some NEW vets.

 

They made a huge mistake trading Watkins and a notable mistake not tendering MG higher...........call that screwed if you want but if they hadn't made the Watkins trade they are probably 5-0 now..........so it's not like they were POORLY built otherwise.

[NoSaint]

 

 

That's not far off IMO........but where you are wrong is that it's not just veteran leadership on this team..........that's not really an accurate representation AT ALL........it's veteran leaders, veteran starters, veteran depth and veteran special teamers.

 

Out with the young....almost all of the recent early round draft picks.........Watkins, Darby, Ragland, Kujo and now John Miller........and in with the old.

 

The way they are being built........if they AREN'T the oldest team in the NFL next year then they will likely be a bad football team.

 

That is not the direction you want to go in year 2 as a young HC.........you can't build culture with a mediocre showing in year one and then take lumps the next couple of years.

 

The LIKELIHOOD is that Tyrod will be back as will A LOT of the vets..........and probably some NEW vets.

 

They made a huge mistake trading Watkins and a notable mistake not tendering MG higher...........call that screwed if you want but if they hadn't made the Watkins trade they are probably 5-0 now..........so it's not like they were POORLY built otherwise.

Oh, I've noted the huge vacuum we've created with ditching an incredible amount of day 1 & 2 picks this offseason.

 

We agree. I was just noting the signings they seemed to seek were tolbert, boldin, wood, and pushing kw to return.... even if boldin didn't work out it seemed clear they wanted a collection of in your face vet leaders.

 

The only place we diverge is I'm not sure they were dying for a ton of old guys across the board as much as trying to get rid of every whaley player they could and young guys are easy to walk away from while a lot of vets come with big dead money (see dareus, clay, and possibly even Glenn among those). You can only bring in so many draft picks in one offseason so it forced the roster to get old by tossing young guys while securing those older "influencers"

Edited October 10, 2017 by NoSaint

[Thurman#1]

 

 

It's the second oldest team in the NFL and probably the oldest roster they've fielded since the drought began.

 

They kept and doubled down on veteran players because they were trying to win NOW.............this was lost on some of you who thought they were tanking (and apparently still lost on you even as they face the likelihood of not being able to get up near the top of the draft even if they trade their entire draft to move up).

 

 

 

Age doesn't matter, not in the first year. What matters is what they are two or three years down the road. That's the point. They switched systems yet again, throwing out a bunch of young guys who wouldn't have fit and building up their draft capital, and bringing in cheaper journeyman FAs who fit the systems. Now as time goes on they have said they intend to build through the draft and there's no particular reason to doubt them.

 

Trying to win now is a secondary goal. It's something they thought they could possibly do while building for the future, which is their main goal. There isn't any doubt about that. They've said it. And they've walked the talk. If they'd been trying to win this year as their primary goals they simply would not have traded Watkins. They simply wouldn't have done that.

 

As for tanking, yet again, there is no such thing as tanking in the NFL. You don't do less than your best with non-guaranteed contracts. It doesn't exist. What does exist is rebuilding. And that's what they're doing. However, you're quite right that they absolutely are not doing a complete rebuild. If they were they'd have jettisoned Kyle Williams, Tyrod, Lorenzo Alexander, etc. They didn't, and so we know they're not doing a complete rebuild.

 

It's equally obvious that they're not re-loading and trying to win right now. If they were, they'd have kept guys like Gillislee, Watkins, Woods and Darby.

 

I personally wish they'd done a complete rebuild. Now they look - yet again - like an eight win team or thereabouts, meaning they're going to have to use their trade capital to trade up most likely and get their new QB. A waste in my opinion. But they're not willing to be awful this year. Guess that's what happens when you put your coach as your defacto GM right up through the draft. Coaches are wired to want to win.

 

But if it was their first priority to win this year, they'd simply have kept Sammy.

 

 

"Anything you build, you want to build it from the ground up with a solid foundation," said Beane. "Rome wasn't built in a day. We're not trying to do this tomorrow. We're going to try to do it the right way and when it's meant to be, we'll get there, and I think everybody will see success."

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Beanes-team-building-rooted-in-proven-philosophy/ce524933-c08b-4c48-9bac-98f83936a1b1

 

Wanna be angry because they aren't focused exclusively on the future? Fair enough. They're not. A complete rebuild is what I'd like to have seen, personally.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

This team did the same thing last year after Sammy got hurt. There is no urgency whatsoever about the WR position. We will just trot out backup trash and lose these games to anyone that can stop the run. Its the same thing every year

 

 

We brought in Matthews and Boldin and used a 2nd on Jones. That's reasonable urgency, though you're surely right that it's not a top priority for them.

 

I don't want them being urgent, personally. I want them progressing systematically and building towards the future.

[BADOLBILZ]

Oh, I've noted the huge vacuum we've created with ditching an incredible amount of day 1 & 2 picks this offseason.

 

We agree. I was just noting the signings they seemed to seek were tolbert, boldin, wood, and pushing kw to return.... even if boldin didn't work out it seemed clear they wanted a collection of in your face vet leaders.

 

The only place we diverge is I'm not sure they were dying for a ton of old guys across the board as much as trying to get rid of every whaley player they could and young guys are easy to walk away from while a lot of vets come with big dead money (see dareus, clay, and possibly even Glenn among those). You can only bring in so many draft picks in one offseason so it forced the roster to get old by tossing young guys while securing those older "influencers"

 

Joe Banyard is an old RB........he is an example of one of the guys that they kept that has no real future in the NFL and he's not an "influencer".......he's not even active.

 

There are a number of players like this..........it doesn't really add up if the objective is "building for the future".

 

I think I get what they are doing...........but it's a little out of the box and they haven't perfectly executed it.......but it is definitely a lot different than what people expect..........what they expect simply isn't all that feasible.

 

The vacuum you are talking about is a limiting factor.........young guys they've jettisoned like the ones I mentioned and Jon Williams were being groomed to be starters and/or get significant snaps.

 

Less than ideal but adequate young players like Preston Brown, Jordan Matthews and EJ Gaines are all unrestricted free agents who you would think they would either want BETTER players at those positions or more available players.........so that could be more holes to patch.

 

Gonna' be a lotta' mixin' and matching yet in the next couple years.

[Thurman#1]

The ONLY reason that I wouldn't call it the worse WR corps ever is because I'm not sure that the 1973 Buffalo Bills even had a real WR corps. That was the year that OJ Simpson ran for 2003 yards in a 14 game season. The Bills played OT Paul Costa at TE, so they obviously valued run blocking. I suppose those WRs were kind of afterthoughts, much like the WRs on the 2005 Chicago Bears when they were bulldozing their way to 11-5 and the NFCN title.

 

 

After the injury to Matthews and Boldin's ducking out, yeah, they look pretty bad. No worse than several other bad years, though. Look at 2009 when the aging T.O. led the receivers with 829 yards and Evans had 612 on the other side, with Stevie Johnson contributing 10 yards, James Hardy 9 and Roscoe Parrish 34 and Josh Reed coming in third with 291.

 

If Matthews and Boldin were still here we'd be quite a bit better than that.

[Thurman#1]

 

Joe Banyard is an old RB........he is an example of one of the guys that they kept that has no real future in the NFL and he's not an "influencer".......he's not even active.

 

There are a number of players like this..........it doesn't really add up if the objective is "building for the future".

 

I think I get what they are doing...........but it's a little out of the box and they haven't perfectly executed it.......but it is definitely a lot different than what people expect..........what they expect simply isn't all that feasible.

 

The vacuum you are talking about is a limiting factor.........young guys they've jettisoned like the ones I mentioned and Jon Williams were being groomed to be starters and/or get significant snaps.

 

Less than ideal but adequate young players like Preston Brown, Jordan Matthews and EJ Gaines are all unrestricted free agents who you would think they would either want BETTER players at those positions or more available players.........so that could be more holes to patch.

 

Gonna' be a lotta' mixin' and matching yet in the next couple years.

 

 

It adds up fine building for the future. Banyard is a spare part, unlikely to be here when the future arrives.

 

But yes, there'll be a lot of mixing and matching, which is what happens as teams (hopefully) settle into one system and start bringing in young guys who fit it and phase out the older guys.

 

Our oldest guys include lots who won't be around for very long, guys like Tolbert, Humber, Shareece Wright, Cedric Thornton, Ryan Davis, Those are five out of our ten oldest. Our talented oldsters look likely to age out of the lineup in the near future, particularly Kyle Williams and Lorenzo Alexander and McCoy, though if they can somehow keep playing young they might be kept.

 

They guys on this team 27 and over are, in descending order, Lorenzo Alexander, Kyle Williams, Mike Tolbert, Ramon Humber, Shareece Wright, Hughes, Cedric Thornton, Shady, Ryan Davis, Charles Clay, Micah Hyde, Leonard Johnson, Dareus, Deon Lacey, Jordan Mills, and Jerel Worthy.

 

That's not exactly the core of the team. You'd hope Hughes, Alexander, Hyde ... how many more would be around for much time? Dareus if he straightens up and plays up to standard but I've stopped thinking that's likely. Clay if he stays healthy and they can make his contract more reasonable?

Edited October 10, 2017 by Thurman#1

[reddogblitz]

Thing is, if tyrod just steps up a bit he has about another second to get the ball off. Could have hit our man on the hash on the last drive. I'm really not sure why he won't shuffle forwards, usually he is good at buying himself time.

 

This is right dead on the money. So often on sacks and other scramblers, he could step into the pocket and deliver the football. Intead, he tries to run AROUND the DEs often running into sacks.

 

This is one thing I was hoping an off season of practice would help, but evidently not.