Public Financing of Stadiums

[Orlando Buffalo]

Public funding is coming. The last deal with the state had legalized bribes built in. http://www.investigativepost.org/2013/03/22/taxpayers-foot-buffalo-bills-luxury-box-seats-for-politicians/

 

My real hope is Buffalo and State just give him land and allow Pegula to do his thing but since politicians want there slice of pie I doubt it. Here in Orlando we just built a new soccer stadium whose price tag dropped about 25% the day the state backed out of financing it. The owner still built it and it is likely better than one that would have cost more with state involvement.

[Woodman19]

With the amount of tax dollars that get flushed down the toilet for things I don't agree with or get benefits from, I don't mind it as at least I get to enjoy the Bills and let others feel upset like me over my money

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

There are so many different variables that come into play when discussing a new stadium/funding than I care to dive into at the moment. I made a thread on the old Bills board about a year ago on the matter, with tons of info from several aspects, but I can't access that and bring it here, so maybe I will when I have the time.

 

But to touch in a few key points:

 

Each project is different, based on local economy, infrastructure, etc., so using previous examples should only be used as a guideline. For the Bills, Indy and Detroit (domed) are the best to compare to. For an open stadium, Baltimore, although the cost was a bit different when theirs was built.

 

From a fans' POV, we Bills fans don't need all the bells and whistles that you find at Jerry World. We enjoy the game day experience much more than the lavish bonuses that those type of places provide. But the league wants increased shared revenue, and the Bills are at the bottom in that department, so you could expect at least some hike in ticket cost. Suite profit is for the team only, and isn't shared, so PSLs will likely be a factor as well, even if they're much cheaper that at other facilities. But a big Chuck of the cost of some of these new, grand facilities comes from the little details, like granite countertops in suites, or "closed" concourses with elaborate walls. Things like that can be avoided for the most part, since Bills fans generally don't care for them. Minimizing the lavish little details like that, among others, could save millions of dollars towards the total cost if the building.

 

The NFL has the G4 program (for now, at least. It will have to be negotiated into the CBA after the current CBA expires in a couple years). It is designed to assist in funding for a new stadium, or an upgrade to a current stadiums. It can provide up to $200 million, IIRC. One of the stipulations is that the team ownership must match those contributions. Another stipulation is that it requires some public funding.

 

Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis, for example, was a total cost of around $750 million (again, I don't have the exact figures on hand without looking it up). There was public funding involved. They enacted small sales taxes to hotels, car rentals, restaurant taxes to the surrounding counties, and even a license plate tax. The Bills should use a similar model. Most WNYers won't need a hotel, or car rental, when attending games. Those taxes will be the burden of people who visit from out of town generally, like me. So while there will be some public taxation to locals when dining out (in this example), much of the burden will come from out of towners. Tickets will probably cost a bit more, and PSLs will take up several seats (which drives up the demand for the remaining seats and their prices), but overall, the local residents attending games may not necessarily see the tax burden that many presume. The state will probably provide some funding, as the Bills are the only NFL in the state of NY, and the state receives tax money annually as a result. Erie county will probably assist as well, although on a much smaller scale compared to the state.

 

***Just a few things to think about. The topic of public funding for a tax free entity like the NFL is an argument for another thread, but I'm sure most of us tax payers agree that it's not right. But it's the way it is, and having a pro football team in your backyard is a luxury, especially for Buffalo, even with the team's history. Obviously, the league has the leverage, and we are getting bent over, but there are ways to alleviate the issue.

[4_kidd_4]

Hey DPG, miss our back-and-forths on this subject from the old board. We had some good info compiled for sure.

[mjd1001]

I guess I'll be the only one to agree with you.

 

Public funded football only stadiums are a total scam and not the slightest bit in the public interest. They cost a fortune, are rarely ever utilized outside of the few football dates per year, take up a ton of valuable real estate (or if they're built in the boonies cost a ton in infrastructure improvements) and generate minimal jobs and income for the area.

 

If politicians cared at all about the regular tax payer they would put it to a referendum, except that they have noticed that those don't go so well so they don't

 

Here in Charlotte, they had a referendum on a new downtown arena. Lost. And then build the stadium anyway using a different (but still public) funding stream. That's how much they care about what the tax payers want.

I'll agree also. Of course I want the Bills to stay in Buffalo...but not at such a high cost for what they bring. For me, it just 60 direct hours of entertainment per year...and if the Bills weren't in Buffalo I'd replace that with something else. Once again, I want the Bills here, but it has to be one of the BETTER deals for taxpayers of everything that has come down in the past 20 years for me to be behind it.

[Simon Says]

Look beyond just funding the stadium or what fans spend at a game.The OVERALL economic impact of the team includes the mortgage and rent their employees ,including millionaire bosses and players, pay locally,year round. Purchases of cars,boats ,groceries,appliances etc.

[PromoTheRobot]

Tax incentives are a tool for governments to lure development. Sometimes it works and it brings revenue beyond the initial outlay and sometimes not. I live in Manchester, NH and there are three examples of this. Twice it was a home run for tax payers, once it was a dud.

 

Once the town of Hooksett created a tax increment zone to lure retail stores to a proposed shopping development. Not only did the shopping center fill up and generate tax revenue, but several smaller retail developments followed. Big win.

 

The city of Manchester built a 10K seat arena to draw an AHL team back in 1998. Not only was the team a big draw, but the arena became one of the top mid-sized venues in the country for events. The arena not only paid for itself but continued to generate positive cash flow in taxes and fees. Interestingly, they gambled building something this large in a city the size of Utica. But Lowell, Mass built a 6,000-seat building, 30 minutes away, and they got passed over because promoters would rather work with a larger venue. Another big win.

 

A few years later, the city of Manchester decided if they could win with an arena, a baseball stadium to draw an Eastern League franchise was a no-brainer. They built a 6500-seat stadium along the river. They even got a hotel built in the outfield, ala Skydome. But the revenues fell short and it wound up costing city taxpayers money to cover the bonds. Big loss, but even so, the stadium and team (NH Fishercats, the team below the Buffalo Bisons in the Toronto farm system) are popular and draw well, so that's a plus.

Edited May 26, 2017 by PromoTheRobot

[Royale with Cheese]

 

What spoils exactly?

 

The NFL is a big sham.

 

The Bills are not so important that tax payers should pay a dime towards a new stadium. People who think that's the case are delusional and drinking the NFL Kool-Aid IMO.

For someone that is so negative towards something, you do spend a lot of time watching and talking about it.

[Sandy McFiddish]

It is definitely unfair to put the onus on the taxpayers to pay for stadiums. Typical big business here in the US, Approximately 30% of our federal taxes get handed to big businesses so they dont have to pay the taxes and for a "chance" to create new jobs. That is why rich business owners get richer every year and 1 out of 6 people are starving in this country. It is why Ralph Wilson refused to transfer team over into his wife's name, so she did not have to pay the taxes on it.

Edited May 26, 2017 by Sandy McFiddish

[gjv001]

Whats wrong with the current stadium? I don't think there's a bad seat in the entire stadium.

Certainly New Era Stadium doesn't have the high end amenities that attract corporate clients.

But the Bills don't have so many corporate clients that they need a new stadium. If generating

more revenues is the issue, just raise ticket prices to meet the needs of the owner and the NFL.

[PromoTheRobot]

Whats wrong with the current stadium? I don't think there's a bad seat in the entire stadium.

Certainly New Era Stadium doesn't have the high end amenities that attract corporate clients.

But the Bills don't have so many corporate clients that they need a new stadium. If generating

more revenues is the issue, just raise ticket prices to meet the needs of the owner and the NFL.

 

As Kirby has explained several times, the Bills can't increase revenues, like ticket prices, in any significant way in the current stadium.

[yungmack]

The tax payer will pay for it either way, whether we know it or not. Ticket prices, concessions, increased taxes. I'm not sure how I feel about it but I would have no problem contributing some to the funding. After all, we do get to enjoy the spoils of being an NFL city. That being said, I'm sure a billionaire can front a little extra cash so is plebeians aren't totally responsible

You seem to have confused taxpayer with ticket purchaser, confused a willingly private exchange of money among a small portion of the population with an enforced transfer of all citizens money to a private business. I care not a whit how you spend your money just so long as you don't ask me to "chip in" to subsidize your enthusiasms.

[VABills]

It is definitely unfair to put the onus on the taxpayers to pay for stadiums. Typical big business here in the US, Approximately 30% of our federal taxes get handed to big businesses so they dont have to pay the taxes and for a "chance" to create new jobs. That is why rich business owners get richer every year and 1 out of 6 people are starving in this country. It is why Ralph Wilson refused to transfer team over into his wife's name, so she did not have to pay the taxes on it.

What? The taxes were paid on the sale of that team when Pegs bought it. The issue was Wilson's didn't have ready cash to pay the taxes when he died. Plus she had no desire to run the team. Big business pay many things even with tax breaks that benefit all. For example, while they write-off salaries as an expense the employees pay taxes on it. Those huge tax benefits the media tells you about are primarily normal tax deductions like salary, rents, supplies, etc... It's not like the government hands them money, but they give deductions, but like you can for children, house mortgage, donations to charity. Keep thinking the man is out to get you.

[yungmack]

If you do not like NFL,Then go enjoy some other tax supported ventures like parks, museums, mass transit to get there, civic centers, opera houses, amphitheaters, concert halls, golf courses, Walmart, the Perry projects, etc etc......

Why'd you leave out roads, sewers, schools, fire departments, police, et al? Or do you not grasp the concept of "for the common good"? The highlighted venues you mentioned do indeed use taxpayers money. But they are open to all the people in a community, usually for free or for a reasonable charge. They are owned by the taxpayers as well. Quite a huge difference from lavish expenditures of taxpayer money for billionaire PRIVATE owners of an NFL franchise whose profits are kept by that PRIVATE "entrepreneur."

 

And what the hell is Wal-Mart doing in there?

[yungmack]

These same threads pop up all the time. If you asked many people they would prefer that every tax dollar be spread around back to all the people that paid, and did not pay, them. The problem with that is that you wouldn't get anything back larger than a monthly allowance. As someone else said...no parks, museums, roads, etc.

 

Should the United States not have built the Washington Monument? An NFL Stadium is far more than a playground for billionaires. And being an NFL City gets Buffalo far more national (and international) exposure than Des Moines Iowa will ever get. There is indeed a soft marketing value to being home to a major league sports franchise.

Don't know if anyone has addressed this yet, but the United States government played no part in the concept, design and initial construction of the Washington Monument. A private trust did that, raising money from donations. It went broke in the 1850s leaving the unfinished monument as a DC eyesore for decades until the embarrassed Congress took it over in 1876 and had the Corps of Engineers finish it. Fun fact: when it was completed in 1885. it was the tallest building in the world.

[4_kidd_4]

Yungmack does his homework.

[Malazan]

The tax payer will pay for it either way, whether we know it or not. Ticket prices, concessions, increased taxes. I'm not sure how I feel about it but I would have no problem contributing some to the funding. After all, we do get to enjoy the spoils of being an NFL city. That being said, I'm sure a billionaire can front a little extra cash so is plebeians aren't totally responsible

 

the question isn't about if you're gonna get f*cked. It's about who's going to f*ck you

[yungmack]

 

This is NOT just an NFL thing...

 

This is a common practice used for economic development in most every community in every state.

 

Rochester, NY has bent over backwards with tax breaks and other incentives just to lure in new businesses in an attempt to fill the void left by Kodak, et al.

 

Big businesses ALWAYS use this leverage with communities.

 

Tax Incentives and Subsidies: Two Staples Of Economic Development ...

 

Pure apples and oranges comparison. Tax subsidies and incentives are meant to be seed money that optimally lead to economic growth for a region, attracting other (private) investment that "grows the local economy," attracting further investment, ad infinitum. Stadium construction along the NFL model has nothing to do with "seed money" programs; it is a wholesale assumption by the taxpayers of a region for the cost of construction of a capital asset that will be for the benefit of a single private entity. While it will "create" a number of jobs during construction, over its lifetime it will provide very few, and low-paying, jobs for the local population. It will not, nor has it ever anywhere, engendered a spurt of sustainable economic prosperity for the region in general which, after all, is the real purpose of tax subsidies and incentives.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

With the amount of tax dollars that get flushed down the toilet for things I don't agree with or get benefits from, I don't mind it as at least I get to enjoy the Bills and let others feel upset like me over my money

 

....exactly......they're going to spend it (A/K/A BLOW IT) somewhere.....and raise the rates if they don't have enough to blow....................

[PolishDave]

I would hate for the Bills to ever leave Buffalo, but this story just confirms how taxpayers gets screwed time and time again when it comes to public financing for stadiums. I'd rather the Bills leave than the taxpayers of Buffalo, Erie County or New York get fleeced just to build a play pen for the rich owners of a sports franchise.

 

Nevada Taxpayers, Please Bend Over

 

There should be zero taxpayer funding of any of these stadiums at all. Taxpayers can pay for the roads and infrastructure to get to the stadium property. But otherwise it should be funded directly from the fans and teams.

It's damn near impossible to change though. It would have to be changed at the Federal level somehow to level the playing field and take away city/state governments' abilities to compete for teams with taxpayer dollars. I don't see it changing.