Public Financing of Stadiums

[Augie]

As Kirby has explained several times, the Bills can't increase revenues, like ticket prices, in any significant way in the current stadium.

 

I hope he has it saved and knows where to go to copy and paste.....

[BUFFALOKIE]

 

There should be zero taxpayer funding of any of these stadiums at all. Taxpayers can pay for the roads and infrastructure to get to the stadium property. But otherwise it should be funded directly from the fans and teams.

It's damn near impossible to change though. It would have to be changed at the Federal level somehow to level the playing field and take away city/state governments' abilities to compete for teams with taxpayer dollars. I don't see it changing.

It can be changed. Easily. Just need a certain owner to lead the way and set a powerful presidence.

[BUNCH OF MULARKEY]

Don't get me wrong I'm against taxpayer money funding stadiums.

But there is at least some return on investment with all the money it brings to the area.

Hotels, alcohol, charcoal, parking, wegmans, airfare, merchandise, gas sales, restaurants, etc etc.

 

But hey if you'd rather them leave and think no money out, no money in is better, then I don't know what to tell ya.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

What? The taxes were paid on the sale of that team when Pegs bought it. The issue was Wilson's didn't have ready cash to pay the taxes when he died. Plus she had no desire to run the team. Big business pay many things even with tax breaks that benefit all. For example, while they write-off salaries as an expense the employees pay taxes on it. Those huge tax benefits the media tells you about are primarily normal tax deductions like salary, rents, supplies, etc... It's not like the government hands them money, but they give deductions, but like you can for children, house mortgage, donations to charity. Keep thinking the man is out to get you.

I pay taxes too, but I don't feel like I always get much in return. No one is going to help me pay to build a new house. Why should we help billionaires build a football stadium? It's just common sense to me. I don't understand how anyone can think it's a good idea. It's just another example of big government that does nothing to serve the true purpose of government. The NFL and its owners can afford to foot the entire bill. Why favor certain business over others? If I were to start a company tomorrow I know exactly what would happen. I would immediately have to overcome a bureaucracy that sets business up for failure. The NFL and team owners know that people are psychologically attached to sports. They use this to con the people and local governments. Edited May 27, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

Hey DPG, miss our back-and-forths on this subject from the old board. We had some good info compiled for sure.

Hey man! Not tough to decifer, you must be moorman. Good to see you're here.

 

Your stance on long term economic growth (or lack thereof) when it comes to new stadiums was clear, and accurate. That said, I think if the Bills do it right, there could be a bit more positive impact in the area than other projects have yielded. The Pegulas certainly have invested a lot of resources into Buffalo over the last several years, and I believe it's all part of a bigger plan.

 

But in general, by the time a new stadium is paid off, it will likely be 30-40 years, and time to pump more money into the place.

 

But I'm with you, in that I prefer to keep the Bills in the current building, or maybe even build a new one next door.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Drunken Pygmy Goat

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

Tax incentives are a tool for governments to lure development. Sometimes it works and it brings revenue beyond the initial outlay and sometimes not. I live in Manchester, NH and there are three examples of this. Twice it was a home run for tax payers, once it was a dud.

 

Once the town of Hooksett created a tax increment zone to lure retail stores to a proposed shopping development. Not only did the shopping center fill up and generate tax revenue, but several smaller retail developments followed. Big win.

 

The city of Manchester built a 10K seat arena to draw an AHL team back in 1998. Not only was the team a big draw, but the arena became one of the top mid-sized venues in the country for events. The arena not only paid for itself but continued to generate positive cash flow in taxes and fees. Interestingly, they gambled building something this large in a city the size of Utica. But Lowell, Mass built a 6,000-seat building, 30 minutes away, and they got passed over because promoters would rather work with a larger venue. Another big win.

 

A few years later, the city of Manchester decided if they could win with an arena, a baseball stadium to draw an Eastern League franchise was a no-brainer. They built a 6500-seat stadium along the river. They even got a hotel built in the outfield, ala Skydome. But the revenues fell short and it wound up costing city taxpayers money to cover the bonds. Big loss, but even so, the stadium and team (NH Fishercats, the team below the Buffalo Bisons in the Toronto farm system) are popular and draw well, so that's a plus.

Great examples, Promo. Smaller scale in comparison, but matches the region.

 

With all the tax money that funnels downstate, I'm sure NY can funnel some back into WNY when the time comes for the Bills. WNYers have contributed tax money, to some extent, for projects like the new Yankee Stadium, renovations to MSG, building and renovation of the Javits Convention Center, etc., yet most WNYers have little to no interest or usage of any of those projects in NYC. Obviously, people in NYC have no care for the Bills (other than WNY transplants), but you would think that the state understands this, and they obviously understand the tax money that the Bills being the only team in the state provides, so hopefully they chip in considerably. They may have helped with the renovations to the Ralph, but that doesn't compare to the tax money that WNYers have paid to help fund NYC projects. 9% tax is ridiculous for WNYers.

 

The Buffalo Billion is still pretty new, and while I don't know all the details, it was a good thing for WNY, so maybe the state will have some objections if the Bills ask for too much.

[Dr.Sack]

There seems to be a tremendous amount of hubris from the .01% that there won't be another recession. Built into this hubris is the feeling that IF there is another recession the taxpayers will again bail out the over-leveraged asset speculators / bond holders. That Vegas stadium is a frog on a hot plate waiting for the next recession. When, not if, there is the next recession, the tax revenue assumption that is being assumed to finance the debt on the stadium will crumble, forcing the local government to tax the citizenry to make up the difference. Just like Lake Meade's water table has dwindled over the past 30 years, Vegas will bleed residents as they inevitably are forced to raise taxes to cover the debt payments. I see the Vegas franchise folding in under a decade and moving to a more stable market. The Raiders foray into Vegas and the new stadium finance scheme is a classic example of casino capitalism run amok. I hope the Pegula's take a more prudent approach and utilize a cheaper retrofit or build a modest stadium in collaboration with local colleges, universities, the city, county, and state.

[PolishDave]

It can be changed. Easily. Just need a certain owner to lead the way and set a powerful presidence.

 

Even if one owner decided to fund a new stadium entirely by himself - I don't see that changing the tradition across the rest of the teams in the NFL. Face it, even rich people like government handouts as long as their government is handing them the money. It is incredibly hard to turn down free money when the amount of free money being offered is in the "millions" of dollars category.

[Hammered a Lot]

I don't care that its billionaire owners. The NFL owners are no different then any other corporation and offer something to benefit the community and revenue. So, as long as its a fair deal by states, counties, cities I'm good.

 

Keep federal jazz out of this.

Bring in the federal coin. It would be a Disaster if the Bills moved!

[boyst]

Bring in the federal coin. It would be a Disaster if the Bills moved!

i'd only want the feds involved to help if we moved to canada so we can get a political battle of building a wall for canada! that'd be awesome

[DriveFor1Outta5]

I don't care that its billionaire owners. The NFL owners are no different then any other corporation and offer something to benefit the community and revenue. So, as long as its a fair deal by states, counties, cities I'm good.

 

Keep federal jazz out of this.

Stadiums actually don't benefit local economies enough to upset the cost to the taxpayers. This has been proven by economists who are far more intelligent than I. That's the issue at the heart of this debate.

The creation of part time minimum wage jobs do nothing to spur the economy. Jobs in areas such as healthcare, technology, education, and energy are what spurs economic growth. Stadiums don't come close to doing so.

 

There is no viable economic reason to give corporate welfare to NFL owners. They are given corporate welfare because people are sports fans. We are being held hostage because we love sports. If they don't get stadium funding they simply move elsewhere. Local leaders are forced to cave because people want their team. No one wants to be the politician who caused their city to lose its team. New stadiums only benefit the league and its owners.

 

Lastly, you have to ask yourself one question. How does a new stadium help the local economy more than an old one? New Era has a field and seats for fans. That's really all you need. People still work there, and fans come out every Sunday. New stadiums don't benefit any of us.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

It can be changed. Easily. Just need a certain owner to lead the way and set a powerful presidence.

...no owner in his right mind would break rank and privately fund a stadium 100%.....

[Hammered a Lot]

I hope he has it saved and knows where to go to copy and paste.....

The Bills do a pretty good job now at renting out the field house. There seems to be something going on there everyday. They raised parking prices this year and are using flex ticket pricing. With the upgrade of pos terminals I would guess they see a rise in gameday receipts. All so this year they can sell beer earlier.

...no owner in his right mind would break rank and privately fund a stadium 100%.....

Jerry Jones??

[YoloinOhio]

Twitter buzz today about Perry Projects again rumored the site of new stadium ... residents aren't being allowed to renew their leases

[bilzfancy]

Twitter buzz today about Perry Projects again rumored the site of new stadium ... residents aren't being allowed to renew their leases

I heard that they will be coming down late next year, or early 2019, with the stadium lease up in 2022 a bit of a coincidence?

[YoloinOhio]

I heard that they will be coming down late next year, or early 2019, with the stadium lease up in 2022 a bit of a coincidence?

apparently there are plans written up to put it there... all rumor of course but it makes sense

[Hammered a Lot]

I heard that they will be coming down late next year, or early 2019, with the stadium lease up in 2022 a bit of a coincidence?

Source?

[T-Bomb]

You must not be from Western NY. Do you have no pride in the Bills playing in Buffalo?

 

For me, I enjoy it. Being able to experience the NFL in my own city is something I don't take for granted

 

I've lived here my whole life.

For someone that is so negative towards something, you do spend a lot of time watching and talking about it.

 

A handful of posts and DVR'ing Bills games is not a lot of time... The NFL is almost unwatchable, and now with the celebration changes, it's probably going to be very unwatchable.

 

If Pegula blackmail's Erie county and its tax payers he'll be no different than every other scammer NFL owner.

Edited May 29, 2017 by T-Bomb

[BobbyC81]

If you do not like NFL,Then go enjoy some other tax supported ventures like parks, museums, mass transit to get there, civic centers, opera houses, amphitheaters, concert halls, golf courses, Walmart, the Perry projects, etc etc......

Here in the Sacramento, a small group of people are pushing for public money for a tournament-level bocce ball court and it looks like they're going to get it. Talk about catering to a small percentage of the population.

[JohnC]

I pay taxes too, but I don't feel like I always get much in return. No one is going to help me pay to build a new house. Why should we help billionaires build a football stadium? It's just common sense to me. I don't understand how anyone can think it's a good idea. It's just another example of big government that does nothing to serve the true purpose of government. The NFL and its owners can afford to foot the entire bill. Why favor certain business over others? If I were to start a company tomorrow I know exactly what would happen. I would immediately have to overcome a bureaucracy that sets business up for failure. The NFL and team owners know that people are psychologically attached to sports. They use this to con the people and local governments.

Whatever your views are on a publicly financed stadium they are valid. But you, like almost everyone, is being subsidized one way or another. If you buy or build a house and borrow to pay for it the interest you pay on your mortgage can be deducted from your income. The real estate taxes you pay also can be deducted from your income. Those deductions are very much a subsidy that renters don't have.

 

Another example is if you have children who go to public schools and your neighbor who doesn't have children is paying taxes for the cost of educating your children while they don't get any direct benefit from their taxes going to the school system.

 

Again, I'm not challenging you on your view about public financing. I'm simply bringing up the point that there are subsidies that most of us get directly or indirectly.