A former Carolina resident's 2 cents on McDermott/Beane...

[GunnerBill]

I don't follow the Panthers, but would you mind explaining their 2016 draft to me? Why did they use 3 of their first 4 picks on defensive backs? Also, how did doing so translate in terms of wins/losses?

 

Thanks.

 

I know you hate drafting DBs... but there is something of an answer here. They had lost their best corner and in the previous 6 drafts their spend on the secondary had been:

 

2 4th rounders

2 5th rounders

1 6th rounder

3 7th rounders.

 

They had a major talent deficiency at defensive back and eventually you have to address it. Bradbury particularly was a player I was quite high on coming out and he had a good rookie year. But the answer is they had a real need at the position after ignoring it high in the draft for the past number of years. Maybe you'd rather never use high picks on defensive backs.... but that isn't a model that the successful franchises in this league have followed.

Edited May 10, 2017 by GunnerBill

[Johnny Hammersticks]

A former colleague of mine is a team physician for the Panthers. He also shared very favorable opinions of McD and Beane. Referred to Beane as the "Theo Epstein of the NFL."

[YoloinOhio]

It was obvious that Kuechly was a future Hall of Famer. Gilmore not so much. I still am upset we didn't trade up for Kuechly, he was worth the number 1 pick even.

keuchly was underrated coming out of HS too. Ohio state didn't even offer him and he was right down the road. He wasn't very fast at that time. I think he ran a 4.7 at one of the camps. Instead they offered a 5 star who was a bust. Just goes to show. Edited May 10, 2017 by YoloinOhio

[mannc]

 

I know you hate drafting DBs... but there is something of an answer here. They had lost their best corner and in the previous 6 drafts their spend on the secondary had been:

 

2 4th rounders

2 5th rounders

1 6th rounder

3 7th rounders.

 

They had a major talent deficiency at defensive back and eventually you have to address it. Bradbury particularly was a player I was quite high on coming out and he had a good rookie year. But the answer is they had a real need at the position after ignoring it high in the draft for the past number of years. Maybe you'd rather never use high picks on defensive backs.... but that isn't a model that the successful franchise in this league have followed.

People tend to forget that there are often 5 or more DBs on the field at one time, and that DBs tend to be major special teams contributors. It's not an area of the team that should be ignored, or even de-emphasized.

[hondo in seattle]

First thing's first...I have to stand behind these moves, because these are the guys I wanted.

 

I'll explain why...

 

First of all, I wanted McDermott long before we fired Rex. I lived in Myrtle Beach, SC, for a few years and I heard a lot about these guys. Josh Norman was at Coastal Carolina, and I saw him play a few times. When he was drafted to the Panthers, I followed that closely. I would hear him talk about how McDermott was such a detail oriented person, and that he always tried to get the best out of his players. He would work individually with them after practice if they wanted. I heard other players say the same thing, Thomas Davis being one of them. I heard Ron Rivera talk about how he expected to lose him sooner or later. All the players always had the same type of vibe when it came to Sean McDermott, they loved the guy and the reason why was because he would never accept anything less than 100% effort from them. Nobody was ever singled out and embarrassed, and none of the veterans were ever given any preferential treatment by him. Jobs were jobs, and they were going to be earned. McDermott was credited for taking players like Josh Norman and Greg Hardy, late round picks, and turning them into pro-bowl caliber players. Charles Johnson and Captain Munnerlyn took off under him too.

 

Second, I would always hear Rivera, Gettleman and Richardson talk glowingly about Beane. You would hear things like "eye for talent," "hard worker," "worked his way up the organizational ladder." He was another guy that they all expected to lose sooner or later. He was critical in keeping them afloat when they fired their GM half way through a season. He was an integral part in the cap structure of the team. I'm pretty sure he was instrumental in bringing Greg Olsen to Carolina. I also recall hearing he was the one pounding the table for Luke Kuechly over Stephon Gilmore and a couple other guys (Ingram, Coples, Cox, Jones, Poe). In 2011 Carolina ranked 24th in passing defense, Gilmore visited with the team (March 2012), their DB coach (Steve Wilks) visited with Gilmore (April 2012), and he grew up 20 minutes down the road. From my understanding, a lot of people wanted Gilmore. However, it was Beane and McDermott who wanted Kuechly and thought he would be an all-pro caliber player in the NFL and a cornerstone/leader for their defense. Beane was somebody who was always spoken very highly of, by everyone I would hear talk about him down there on the radio or in the newspaper.

 

If you take a look at the Carolina Panthers' draft history, their selections seem to have gotten better in 2011/2012 once Bean became more involved too.

 

Both of these guys were constantly talked about as great football men, who knew what they were doing and would one day be running their own teams.

 

I don't claim to know anything from any inside sources, and this could all mean nothing...I'm just giving my two cents on something I was close to and paid attention to when I was living down there.

 

 

 

A couple other interesting facts...the Panthers had interest in Jerel Worthy that year, as well as 2017 Bills (rumored) free agency targets Keenan Robinson and Morris Claiborne.

 

Here's a transcript of Stephon Gilmore's introductory press conference, that was posted on the Panthers' team website...

http://www.panthers.com/news/article-2/Transcript-Stephon-Gilmore/75cb2456-5578-4b28-b3ee-d14d3af4770f

(And if it wasn't Beane, I would've wanted Veach...simply because my former high school teammate, Ryan Poles, works with him in KC and had spoken highly of him.)

 

 

***I didn't know if this should be put in another thread, but I figured there was enough here and I didn't want it to get lost in the shuffle...if you want to merge it, I understand.***

 

 

I have a good friend who works for the Panthers and has know this guy for many years. He texted me to say "we hit the gm lottery" with this guy. Good to hear, but after all the years of pain, I am officially a wait and see guy. Nonetheless, good to hear. Stay tuned.

 

 

A former colleague of mine is a team physician for the Panthers. He also shared very favorable opinions of McD and Beane. Referred to Beane as the "Theo Epstein of the NFL."

 

Thanks for the insight!

 

I know virtually nothing about Beane. It's good to get some info from folks who know more than I do - rather than reading the ranting of people just as ignorant as I am.

 

As fans we won't know for years if Beane is a good GM, but it's encouraging that multiple sources with direct knowledge of the guy think highly of him.

[CommonCents]

A former colleague of mine is a team physician for the Panthers. He also shared very favorable opinions of McD and Beane. Referred to Beane as the "Theo Epstein of the NFL."

He has some catching up to do. Epstein is only 43 and already built up the Cubs and Sox. Three years to bring a super bowl to Buffalo then we can revisit this discussion.

 

In all seriousness though that's a very loose comparison, Theo is well onto his way to HOF and best GM ever consideration. This guy just got his job...

[Bill from NYC]

I know you hate drafting DBs... but there is something of an answer here. They had lost their best corner and in the previous 6 drafts their spend on the secondary had been:

 

2 4th rounders

2 5th rounders

1 6th rounder

3 7th rounders.

 

They had a major talent deficiency at defensive back and eventually you have to address it. Bradbury particularly was a player I was quite high on coming out and he had a good rookie year. But the answer is they had a real need at the position after ignoring it high in the draft for the past number of years. Maybe you'd rather never use high picks on defensive backs.... but that isn't a model that the successful franchises in this league have followed.

Thanks, your answer makes sense. Having a quarterback in place also makes drafting early defensive backs more palatable. Would you happen to know if they invested much in free agent DBs during the time period that you mention? Also, what was their record both before and after the 2016 draft? It makes me wonder if it was productive to virtually dedicate a draft to the secondary.

 

Yes, it does concern me that McDermott used his first pick in Buffalo on a corner because of the number of times I have seen it fail. It was great that he picked up a 2018 first round pick. I am thrilled by this and hope he doesn't waste it on a DB. We will need to solidify the QB position, the OL, and probably the pass rush by the next draft. Perhaps even WR, who knows?

People tend to forget that there are often 5 or more DBs on the field at one time,

This is true, and the best DB who ever played the game can only cover 1 at a time. And while I fully agree that the secondary should not be ignored, I for one believe that the best way stop opposing offenses is with pressure and sacks.

[mead107]

I am waiting for the season to start

[Johnny Hammersticks]

He has some catching up to do. Epstein is only 43 and already built up the Cubs and Sox. Three years to bring a super bowl to Buffalo then we can revisit this discussion.

 

In all seriousness though that's a very loose comparison, Theo is well onto his way to HOF and best GM ever consideration. This guy just got his job...

Well, obviously...

[CommonCents]

Well, obviously...

Sorry I'm a little bit defensive of Theo. I wish he would try the NFL once he gets bored with baseball, IMO the NFL is the ultimate challenge for a GM.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

Sorry I'm a little bit defensive of Theo. I wish he would try the NFL once he gets bored with baseball, IMO the NFL is the ultimate challenge for a GM.

Indeed. I failed to mention that the person who shared this opinion also knows Theo personally (he's a pretty well known sports physician). I think he was speaking more to Beane's work ethic and football acumen, and how those attributes compare to Theo's...in his opinion.

[JustWinPlease]

Hey everybody, thanks for the kind responses and you're welcome for the post and insight. I, too, am in wait and see mode, but I am very comfortable with this decision. We need to give it time.

Personally, I didn't like our draft this year, but I am more optimistic about the Bills than I have been in a long time because of these moves...I trust these guys as football men/minds.

(I just think we need two cornerstones to build around like Cam and Kuechly...a QB and an absolute stud on defense.)

My cousin currently lives in Charlotte, and he says the talk around there has also been that the Bills finally did something right and landed two great leaders.

I don't follow the Panthers, but would you mind explaining their 2016 draft to me? Why did they use 3 of their first 4 picks on defensive backs? Also, how did doing so translate in terms of wins/losses?

Thanks.

It's really simple, they lost their best CB and literally had nobody else at CB. McDermott values CB's in his scheme, and they needed to replenish that position with so many other position groups being strong. It didn't result in wins, but I believe that had more to do with Cam and Kuechly being hurt...again, those are their leaders and the engines that make the machine go in Carolina.

White, Hyde, Poyer, Johnson, Wright, Cromartie, Sylve, Gaines, Elston...the visit with Boston, as well as reported interest in others (Claiborne, Webb, etc) shows how much McDermott values his DB's.

(But, man, I hate our linebacker group...Ragland, Brown, Alexander, Humber and two very small draft picks? Meh, that group needs some work eventually. Compare it to Kuechly, Davis and Thompson? Lol.)


Anyways, I think we have a good set of young guys to help build this thing and we need to give them some time...it's been 17 years, to me another year or two is nothing if it means a decade of winning.


I'd also like to bring this to your attention...I believe McDermott can do some great things with Kevon Seymour, check it out.

Josh Norman is 6-0, 197 lbs, and played at Coastal Carolina...he was a 5th round pick.
Arm Length - 32 3/4"
Hand Size - 9 1/4"
40-yard Dash - 4.66
Bench Press - 14 reps
Vertical - 33 inches
Broad Jump - 124 inches
3-Cone Drill - 7.09
20-yard Shuttle - 4.23

Kevon Seymour is 6-0, 186lbs, and played at USC...he was a 6th round pick. (He's comparable to Adoree Jackson, a first round pick.)
Arm Length - 31 3/4"
Hand Size - 9"
40-yard Dash - 4.39
Bench Press - 12 reps
Vertical - 35 inches
Broad Jump - 124 inches
3-Cone Drill - 6.81
20-yard Shuttle - 4.18

Seymour would've been a much higher draft pick if he were healthy his last season (knee and ankle injuries)...and I've read that he could be better suited for zone-coverage.

Again, I'm no expert, but I think we could have three very good CB's on our roster, and that's something McDermott and Frazier are very good at...just something to keep an eye on.

PS. I REALLY MISS MYRTLE BEACH! Lol. One of the best experiences of my life living down there.

Edited May 10, 2017 by JustWinPlease

[Foxx]

...I'm just giving my two cents on something I was close to and paid attention to when I was living down there. ...

thanks for posting. we can only hope at this point.

 

[3rdand12]

Thanks for the OP JustWinPlease. appreciated !!

[GunnerBill]

Thanks, your answer makes sense. Having a quarterback in place also makes drafting early defensive backs more palatable. Would you happen to know if they invested much in free agent DBs during the time period that you mention? Also, what was their record both before and after the 2016 draft? It makes me wonder if it was productive to virtually dedicate a draft to the secondary.

 

Yes, it does concern me that McDermott used his first pick in Buffalo on a corner because of the number of times I have seen it fail. It was great that he picked up a 2018 first round pick. I am thrilled by this and hope he doesn't waste it on a DB. We will need to solidify the QB position, the OL, and probably the pass rush by the next draft. Perhaps even WR, who knows?

This is true, and the best DB who ever played the game can only cover 1 at a time. And while I fully agree that the secondary should not be ignored, I for one believe that the best way stop opposing offenses is with pressure and sacks.

 

They brought vet free agents in on short term deals mainly - likes of Roman Harper, Charles Tillman and Cortland Finnegan. They went from 15-1 to 6-10 from 2015 to 2016 and the reasons do rather play to your "Quarterback and OLine 1st" principle. They had major injuries on the line and guys coming in and out and playing different positions and partly as a result Cam was never fully healthy. Those defensive back picks will help them long term though. Especially Bradbury - he is a really fine football player.

 

As for what the Bills need to focus on next year - I hope we will consider a Quarterback early, particularly if the class is as good as advertised. They will certainly need pass rush even if Shaq steps up as I believe he will and Jerry has a bounce back season in a 4-3 because there is very little depth. They may need wide receivers too. I'm less sure they need o-line at this moment in time - our line is strong and has respectable depth in my opinion (especially if Kujo can sort himself out and Dawkins displaces Mills as a starter). By next year however we could be at the point where Richie is not worth his salary and Wood likewise. I think they have Groy tied up for two years so he gives them an option at one of those spots but they will almost certainly want to add at least one young interior lineman next offseason if Incognito and Wood are gone.

[boyst]

Thanks, your answer makes sense. Having a quarterback in place also makes drafting early defensive backs more palatable. Would you happen to know if they invested much in free agent DBs during the time period that you mention? Also, what was their record both before and after the 2016 draft? It makes me wonder if it was productive to virtually dedicate a draft to the secondary.

 

Yes, it does concern me that McDermott used his first pick in Buffalo on a corner because of the number of times I have seen it fail. It was great that he picked up a 2018 first round pick. I am thrilled by this and hope he doesn't waste it on a DB. We will need to solidify the QB position, the OL, and probably the pass rush by the next draft. Perhaps even WR, who knows?

This is true, and the best DB who ever played the game can only cover 1 at a time. And while I fully agree that the secondary should not be ignored, I for one believe that the best way stop opposing offenses is with pressure and sacks.

they didnt' bring in any beneficial cb's. they had roman harper who succeeded as well as any safety would in mcdermotts system. harper was similar to jimmy leonhard. no one knew him until you saw him play. then you knew him.

 

finnegan and tillman were not as godo as harper; not sure why, don't fulyl remember. finnegan was smart. tillman wasn't. harper intuitive.

[Sherlock Holmes]

keuchly was underrated coming out of HS too. Ohio state didn't even offer him and he was right down the road. He wasn't very fast at that time. I think he ran a 4.7 at one of the camps. Instead they offered a 5 star who was a bust. Just goes to show.

I'm just hoping we right this wrong by acquiring him somehow lol

[wilcoam]

I really hope the new MGMT team works out as our team deserves better continuity in management

And I love the idea of two young executives working in tandem building our team

However I'm not sold 100% on HC Sean's initial off season moves

I understand he's gonna re-jig our team and make more his team, his players, his schemes

However in doing so I believe he jettisoned more on field talent than he gained

And most of us don;t see a this team winning 9-10 games this year but more the same 6-8

So its at most a transition year with an eye on competing more in 2018

But I;m not convinced the NFL in general, media, and us fans, plus Terry/Kim, are giving anyone 4 years, lol

A pass this year, absolutely, but if our team doesn't show signs of improvement, I'm not convinced this duo stays past 2 years

That is the new reality in today's NFL, its result based

Sorry if that's a bubble burst

 

jc

[biggerdaddynj]

Thanks for sharing this wealth of information and insight.

 

I'm really even more excited now about McD after hearing what you had to say--he's like the anti-Rex!! Seems like the kind of guy we need here--change culture in locker room (if we could only do that with entire FO!).

 

However, I'm not as optimistic about Beane but I hope it's much ado about nothing because I think the roster is close if everyone is healthy and plays up to McD's standards (which I was delighted to hear about). Hope I'm wrong about Beane even though his role is really to be McD's man--which is fine--speak with one voice... However, as far as Beane's past "success"--I just don't see it. Here's the results of the draft boards Beane was credited with being heavily involved in setting (our recent failed drafts have been heavily affected by injuries--even Sammy, what if he'd been 100% healthy for his entire career?):

 

http://www.panthers.com/team/history/college-draft-history.html

 

And, as for Beane's off-season moves (FA, trades, etc.) they're much less impressive than what we've accomplished of late (drop down and search by year):

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/transactions/_/name/car/carolina-panthers

 

Hope my concerns are entirely baseless because like everyone else, I want to root for a winner again--waited way too long to get to the SB years--and this wait has been even more painful.

 

Thanks again for the insight!!

Edited May 11, 2017 by biggerdaddynj