thebandit27 Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 If all it took to analyze players was going to the games and watching "All 22" from WGR, we'd all have front office jobs. This doesn't even have anything to do with Sammy, it's just bull **** statements like "he's open every play" that make me chuckle. I wouldn't say that any player is ever open any play, but I think there are a select few players that are "open when they're covered", and usually it's because they dwarf anyone covering them or are just ridiculous in a jump ball situation (Gronk, AJ Green, Calvin Johnson pre retirement) I have no clue what point you're trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 I have no clue what point you're trying to make. WGR controls All-22, duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) If all it took to analyze players was going to the games and watching "All 22" from WGR, we'd all have front office jobs. This doesn't even have anything to do with Sammy, it's just bull **** statements like "he's open every play" that make me chuckle. I wouldn't say that any player is ever open any play, but I think there are a select few players that are "open when they're covered", and usually it's because they dwarf anyone covering them or are just ridiculous in a jump ball situation (Gronk, AJ Green, Calvin Johnson pre retirement) Julian Edelman and Antonio Brown are open all of the time too. It has as much to do with route running, hand placement, quickness and speed as it does size. I defer though to the people at WGR to learn football .... Edited April 17, 2017 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElectricCompany Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 The All-22 is actual film of the game from the coaches box perspective that has been available to fans for the last few seasons. It's a great feature, but that doesn't mean we're any better at analyzing players. We're all just casual fans who have no idea on how to watch tape and measure play by play performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 It's a great feature, but that doesn't mean we're any better at analyzing players. We're all just casual fans who have no idea on how to watch tape and measure play by play performance. Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElectricCompany Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) Really? Are you a NFL scout? A pro analyst? A full time coach? That be awesome if you were, because I'd push your posts to the top of the pile But sure, let's jump on All 22 from WGR, a few Youtube highlight reels and go the games and make funny statements like "He's open every play", "He's a top 3 WR when healthy" or "He'd outperform OBJ if the tables were turned". Edited April 17, 2017 by TheElectricCompany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 Bill, most of this is simply false. Cooper is 6'1", 211 lbs http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/amari-cooper?id=2552487 Sammy is 6'1", 211 lbs. http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/sammy-watkins?id=2543457 Cooper's drop rate was 7.1% as a rookie and 2.3% last year. Sammy's drop rate was 3.1% as a rookie, 3.1% in year 2, and 3.9% last year On a per-target basis, Sammy smokes Cooper despite playing with a QB that is clearly not the passer that Carr is at the current time. And that brings me back to my point: Cooper is probably a top-10 WR in the NFL by most accounts. Sammy has 2 seasons of performing like a No. 1 WR despite a staggering lack of opportunity in comparison to his peers. The only issue with him is availability. Now, if someone places a higher level of emphasis on that than someone else, sure, that's an argument worth having. Whether or not he's as productive as other guys when given the targets is not up for debate. +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) Are you a NFL scout? A pro analyst? A full time coach? That be awesome if you were, because I'd push your posts to the top of the pile But sure, let's jump on All 22 from WGR, a few Youtube highlight reels and go the games and make funny statements like "He's open every play", "He's a top 3 WR when healthy" or "He'd outperform OBJ if the tables were turned". I have never been a pro scout but I have sat in on film sessions with them on a handful of occasions and know a dozen plus pro scouts. Their process is no different than Bandit, Blokes, Cover 1, Gunner or Rob Quinn. They just have technology that is easier to sort through. They are all looking at the same thing though. It is a little insulting to assume that people don't know what they are looking at. I am pretty sure Eric at Cover 1 was a college QB. He knows what he is looking at as do a lot of people here. Edited April 17, 2017 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsfanAZ Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 The Bills will pick up his option. If they dont and end up putting the franchise tag on him then they have to pay him more money rather than locking him up now. Eventually the injury bug will stop biting and he will show off his talent. I dont think the new coaches will ignore him on offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 @albertbreer Bucs GM Jason Licht told reporters the team is picking up Mike Evans' 5th-year option. Third one so far (Jadeveon Clowney, Aaron Donald). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElectricCompany Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) I have never been a pro scout but I have sat in on film sessions with them on a handful of occasions and know a dozen plus pro scouts. Their process is no different than Bandit, Blokes, Cover 1, Gunner or Rob Quinn. They just have technology that is easier to sort through. They are all looking at the same thing though. It is a little insulting to assume that people don't know what they are looking at. I am pretty sure Eric at Cover 1 was a college QB. He knows what he is looking at as do a lot of people here. That's good that you're well connected with established NFL scouts, but I don't see them making the kind of ridiculous statements this thread is full. I just don't see how someone could walk away from watching Sammy live and on tape over the past three seasons and think the guy is the best thing since sliced bread. It's perfectly fine for some to disregard the consistency and production of established top tier receivers and both inflate and project what Sammy could do if his situation was perfected. Again, he's not a bad receiver, he's certainly quality and has big play ability, but it's this top 3-10 stuff that makes me scratch my head. If the guy really burns corners left and right and is open every play, how is it that 3 offensive coordinators and 2 head coaches couldn't find a way to get him the ball consistently? There are only two possible scenarios: Our coaches were so incredibly incompetent that they missed a top tier receiver right in front of their eyes, or he's just not as good as we think. Take your pick. Edited April 17, 2017 by TheElectricCompany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 Sammy is a brilliant route runner with elite short space quickness and change of direction. I have no doubt he is capable of being a top 5 receiver in this league. But he has to have the production before you put him there and his injuries have restricted that production.... as has a Quarterback who doesn't see the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real McClappy Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) That's good that you're well connected with established NFL scouts, but I don't see them making the kind of ridiculous statements this thread is full. I just don't see how someone could walk away from watching Sammy live and on tape over the past three seasons and think the guy is the best thing since sliced bread. It's perfectly fine for some to disregard the consistency and production of established top tier receivers and both inflate and project what Sammy could do if his situation was perfected. Again, he's not a bad receiver, he's certainly quality and has big play ability, but it's this top 3-10 stuff that makes me scratch my head. If the guy really burns corners left and right and is open every play, how is it that 3 offensive coordinators and 2 head coaches couldn't find a way to get him the ball consistently? There are only two possible scenarios: Our coaches were so incredibly incompetent that they missed a top tier receiver right in front of their eyes, or he's just not as good as we think. Take your pick. ? Lack of Targets due to QB play that is not acceptable for any #1 WR to strive is Ridiculous statements in this thread? What coach will ever survive in this league without a true #1 QB? The answer is none. So lets blame all our WR's and coaches now like we have done so long in the past on the O-line. When is the silliness from Bills fans ever going to end? Edited April 17, 2017 by Real McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 Sammy is a brilliant route runner with elite short space quickness and change of direction. I have no doubt he is capable of being a top 5 receiver in this league. But he has to have the production before you put him there and his injuries have restricted that production.... as has a Quarterback who doesn't see the field. Health and a better qb would equal elite production. My understanding is a number of wide receivers have required a second surgery on that foot problem. It appears to be something that is stable afterwards. Other injuries are perhaps another issue. Better qb is something a lot of folks here want to defer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big C Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 Worth noting only three options have been picked up so far league wide. Plenty of good players from that draft still waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 If the guy really burns corners left and right and is open every play, how is it that 3 offensive coordinators and 2 head coaches couldn't find a way to get him the ball consistently? There are only two possible scenarios: Our coaches were so incredibly incompetent that they missed a top tier receiver right in front of their eyes, or he's just not as good as we think. Take your pick. Watch the all 22 and see for yourself. While it's all well and good to boil it down to two simplistic scenarios of your choosing, you omit the very important dynamic of the QB. The Bills coaching has certainly been suspect and perhaps incompetent. Ignoring the deficiencies of the QB when it comes to WR production is silly. For example, did Hopkins suddenly get worse at HOU or is Osweiler just not a very good QB? Saying the only two possible scenarios are that Sammys just not that good or the coaches are incompetent is well, incompetent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 That's good that you're well connected with established NFL scouts, but I don't see them making the kind of ridiculous statements this thread is full. I just don't see how someone could walk away from watching Sammy live and on tape over the past three seasons and think the guy is the best thing since sliced bread. It's perfectly fine for some to disregard the consistency and production of established top tier receivers and both inflate and project what Sammy could do if his situation was perfected. Again, he's not a bad receiver, he's certainly quality and has big play ability, but it's this top 3-10 stuff that makes me scratch my head. If the guy really burns corners left and right and is open every play, how is it that 3 offensive coordinators and 2 head coaches couldn't find a way to get him the ball consistently? There are only two possible scenarios: Our coaches were so incredibly incompetent that they missed a top tier receiver right in front of their eyes, or he's just not as good as we think. Take your pick. It is the former. He got 6.5 targets a game. Julio Jones gets 11 and Antonio Brown 11.2. Even Deandre Hopkins got over 10.5 a game last year. Edelman gets over 12. Do you think it's crazy for him to get 10 targets a game? If he gets that (which is what other good receivers are getting) it amounts to 105 catches, 1,689 yards and 12 TDs. The production on a per target basis has been elite. That is obviously inept coaching. It is (and was) inexcusable to throw him the ball 6.5 times a game. This holds especially true with your other pass catching options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 It is the former. He got 6.5 targets a game. Julio Jones gets 11 and Antonio Brown 11.2. Even Deandre Hopkins got over 10.5 a game last year. Edelman gets over 12. Do you think it's crazy for him to get 10 targets a game? If he gets that (which is what other good receivers are getting) it amounts to 105 catches, 1,689 yards and 12 TDs. The production on a per target basis has been elite. That is obviously inept coaching. It is (and was) inexcusable to throw him the ball 6.5 times a game. This holds especially true with your other pass catching options. I sure hope the new coaching staff gets it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridge Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 It is the former. He got 6.5 targets a game. Julio Jones gets 11 and Antonio Brown 11.2. Even Deandre Hopkins got over 10.5 a game last year. Edelman gets over 12. Do you think it's crazy for him to get 10 targets a game? If he gets that (which is what other good receivers are getting) it amounts to 105 catches, 1,689 yards and 12 TDs. The production on a per target basis has been elite. That is obviously inept coaching. It is (and was) inexcusable to throw him the ball 6.5 times a game. This holds especially true with your other pass catching options. I feel like Watkins' average is misleading... it doesn't do enough to highlight just how misused he has been. While it may work out that he has had 6.5 targets per game, looking at his season you can see that his high was only 10 targets in a game where had 7 catches. 7 catches was his season high. His next best game was 4 catches. I've seen some people say that our run-heavy offense kept us in games, but actually that should free Watkins in the pass game even more. There's no excuse for Watkins' lack of targets. It makes you wonder why the franchise hemorrhaged so much in order to land him, only to do almost nothing to use him as a weapon in the offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 Anyone who WOULDN'T resign Sammy, considering what he has shown he can do and what we gave up for him, is insane. Jesus, what 17 years does to people. Simply and correctly put!except that he totally is..and hes 23 not 12, supposedly a man.That is a silly comment lacking any fact! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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