papazoid Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) in MLB...hitters have OBP (hits & walks)....a better measure than just BA in NFL ...QB's have total QBR (arm & legs ).....a better measure than just passer rating total qbr is NOT a silly stat QB's should get credit for extending plays with their legs and avoiding sacks. it would be like saying you shouldn't count good hands and receiving yards for RB's. Edited December 21, 2016 by papazoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 All those QB's suck and EJ still threw for more yards in 2 games than TT does in 4. I am of the opinion that many QBs who have failed could THRIVE in another system/opportunity....and on the flip side, some good QB's who have had success would FAIL in another system/opportunity. There are exceptions; some QBs would be amazing regardless of system/opp (Peyton Manning), and some QB's would still suck regardless of system/opp (Manziel). I THINK Polish Dave's point is that that is a lot of QBs who have all been very terrible in Romans system (and in my opinion, maybe one or two could have success if they were in another system/opp) - so is it ALL Those QB's that are bad, or is Romans system really that bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 All those QB's suck and EJ still threw for more yards in 2 games than TT does in 4. Kansas City fans (who have seen the playoffs last year and this year) disagree with your assessment of the quarterbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) Kansas City fans (who have seen the playoffs last year and this year) disagree with your assessment of the quarterbacks.If Tyrod Taylor didn't suck then he would be Alex Smith. 1-7 vs teams w winning record. What other stats can we use to show he is mediocre on his best days ? Edited December 21, 2016 by Ryan L Billz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 That is not what I imagine...I imagine a QB dropping back in the pocket and going through his progressions to find an open target...and yes, sometimes these are half field reads based on pre-snap reads. What I am saying, and know is true, is that every game there are multiple times where Tyrod drops back like other QBs in the league, has good to great protection with several seconds to make his reads and throw like other QBs in the league, but he does not actually find the open target that IS actually open like other QBs in the league do. I agree no one here knows what the play call is designed to do specifically, or what Tyrod is being told to do. But I do know that every NFL offense has things called passing plays, where the QB has several options to work through to find the open target, and is expected to find and throw to that open target. I know that indeed our offense has these passing plays, and I know that I have routinely seen Tyrod not be able to locate that guy (not on broken plays, not on scrambles, not on designed one read/half field plays, but actual NFL passing plays where the onus is on the QB to make some reads and make the play) enough that it makes me worry he can never be the guy we would need him to be. I still think your point about Roman offenses never producing even an average aerial attack is a great point. I lean towards the argument "we already know who Tyrod is" despite this point...but I can see the other side of "who knows what Tyrod can do with an actual passing offense"...I just have a hard time reconciling with what we all see on the field on Sundays when he IS asked to be a QB despite of all other factors. I don't anticipate Tyrod ever becoming an above average passer. An elite passer would be making more plays in the passing game even if the system is poorly designed or even broken. The whole point in my posting all this stuff about Roman's offense is to refute the argument where Tyrod haters use the "passing yardage ranking" as their pillar argument for Tyrod not being a good enough quarterback. It is asinine to use total passing yards ranking as a judgement of a quarterback's passing ability when that quarterback is stuck in a offense that has been near the very bottom of the league year after year every year for the last 6 years in a row. If you don't realize how bad Roman's offenses always rank in terms of passing, then it is very easy to just blame the qb for everything. That is not fair to any of those qb's including Tyrod. Tyrod could totally fail to master a passing attack in a pass heavy offense too. Or he could fail in a passing attack that is traditionally average in passing year after year. We don't know because we haven't seen it. He has only had the chance to be QB in a ****ty bottom of the league passing offense. When you judge Tyrod, you have to judge him through the lens of the environment he is playing in. And the truth is that he is playing in a Greg Roman passing offense that has always been near the bottom of the league in total passing yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Kansas City fans (who have seen the playoffs last year and this year) disagree with your assessment of the quarterbacks. Lol yeah? How come the passing yard ranking of KC has been 22, 29, 30 in the last 3 years? Is Roman moonlighting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumbalaya Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) Taylor had a chance to win a lot of games in the 4th quarter. He failed on every one of them. That is the only stat that matters. Taylor had a chance to hit a lot of wide open and open receivers and a number where we could have won a jump ball or drawn a penalty. He was afraid to throw the ball far far too often. Edited December 21, 2016 by jumbalaya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quinnearlysghost88 Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) his passing clutchness is very very bad, but it's buoyed by rushing. Edited December 21, 2016 by quinnearlysghost88 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskingridgebillsfan Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I guess this finally show the qbr rating has no relation to play on the field Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Gun Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I don't anticipate Tyrod ever becoming an above average passer. An elite passer would be making more plays in the passing game even if the system is poorly designed or even broken. The whole point in my posting all this stuff about Roman's offense is to refute the argument where Tyrod haters use the "passing yardage ranking" as their pillar argument for Tyrod not being a good enough quarterback. It is asinine to use total passing yards ranking as a judgement of a quarterback's passing ability when that quarterback is stuck in a offense that has been near the very bottom of the league year after year every year for the last 6 years in a row. If you don't realize how bad Roman's offenses always rank in terms of passing, then it is very easy to just blame the qb for everything. That is not fair to any of those qb's including Tyrod. Tyrod could totally fail to master a passing attack in a pass heavy offense too. Or he could fail in a passing attack that is traditionally average in passing year after year. We don't know because we haven't seen it. He has only had the chance to be QB in a ****ty bottom of the league passing offense. When you judge Tyrod, you have to judge him through the lens of the environment he is playing in. And the truth is that he is playing in a Greg Roman passing offense that has always been near the bottom of the league in total passing yards. How about when the All 22 shows WR running open all over the field in Romans "bad" offense? Is that on the QB not getting those open WR the ball or is it just easier to blame the OC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskingridgebillsfan Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Sammie just about said the same thing . I am open I see it on film. The thing said most during a bills game 'Throw the damn ball " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Sammie just about said the same thing . I am open I see it on film. The thing said most during a bills game 'Throw the damn ball " He also followed that with saying he sees defenders in Tyrod's face on film and understands what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I thought QBR had been discredited as a meaningful stat? It had its critics from the start: "Further controversy erupted when the Total QBR system gave the Denver Broncos' Tim Tebow a higher rating than the Green Bay Packers' Aaron Rodgers in their respective Week 5 contests in 2011. Noting that Rodgers completed 26 of 39 passes for 396 yards and two touchdowns in a win over the Atlanta Falcons, while Tebow completed four of 10 passes for 79 yards and a touchdown, and six rushes for 38 yards and a touchdown, in a loss to the San Diego Chargers, Mike Florio of Profootballtalk.com wrote that he'll "continue to ignore ESPN’s Total QBR stat."[12] Rodgers himself was surprised: "I saw the [QBR stats] and chuckled to myself. I played a full game, [Tebow] played the half. He completed four passes, I completed 26. I think it incorporates QB runs as well ... The weighting of it doesn't make a whole lot of sense."[13]" Is it a coincidence that Tyrod Taylor and Tim Tebow's initials are TT? Hmmm. Both very likeable guys. Both have their limitations when it comes to throwing the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 You can't know why without knowing exactly what the play is and how Tyrod is being told to execute it. And NOBODY here knows that. If the coaches thought he was not executing the plays as they are called, then I think they would have sat him (at least for part of a game) and let EJ try to do it. They haven't done that which tells me that they think Tyrod is doing at least okay in what those plays are designed to do. Fans imagine that every NFL passing play is executed like backyard football where the QB drops back and surveys every receiver and chucks the ball to the most open guy. That isn't how it works. That only happens when there is a broken play. And once a play is broken, you can't expect perfect execution. You can't expect a QB to see every open guy in a broken play. Usually the field is cut in half because the qb is out of the pocket and on the run. It is entirely possible and even very likely - that the passing game is too complicated by design or just poorly designed. History suggests it is one of those two or possibly both. No Roman offense has ever had an average or better passing attack. You want a list? Here is a list of all the quarterbacks who couldn't get an effective passing attack going with Roman's offense: Tyrod Taylor EJ Manuel Alex Smith Colin Kaepernick Colt McCoy Blaine Gabbert Troy Smith Scott Tolzien Josh Johnson How many more quarterbacks do you want to rotate through a Roman system and watch fail as a passer before you shift your blame more towards the coach and the design of his system? He couldn't even get lucky and approach average with any of these guys. If Roman was any good at all at designing a passing game, ANY good at all, don't you think he would have found a little success with at least one of those guys? His highest success in passing was getting to rank number 23 in the NFL. Dude's passing offenses fricken suck. It is irrefutable. I think you just proved why Roman doesn't throw the ball more. What a garbage list of qbs. Kansas City fans (who have seen the playoffs last year and this year) disagree with your assessment of the quarterbacks. Smith has thrown for 20 tds twice in a 10 year career. He is a great game manager but he has never been close to a game changing qb. And he is arguably the best passing qb Roman has ever had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Shows the error built into statistics. There is always Truth lost in translation as you go from what actually happens on the field to a statistic. It's an inaccurate way to try and assess who is doing what and how well. It's a lot easier to just focus on Tyrod and watch him play football. Will show you all you need to know. The thing is, QBR isn't really a statistic. Statistics are things you measure: passes attempted, passes completed, interceptions, touchdowns thrown. Then you get into "advanced statistics" or "indicators" that sites such as Cold Hard Football Facts use. Since they're selling a product, they continually verify their aggregations with "correlation to victory" and "predictive power" But even there, they can tell you what goes into them - "bendability" = "yards allowed/points allowed" OK I get it, I can verify your work. Now we get to QBR. "Unlike the NFL passer rating, ESPN has not yet been forthcoming on the exact specific formulas and procedures to calculate QBR.[5] The proprietary, complex methodology spans some 10,000 lines of code Sorry but if you can't explain what you're doing and you refuse to disclose it, it isn't a statistic or an aggregation of statistics, it's an opinion, especially considering the elements of subjectivity involved in the aspects that are disclosed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 32nd passing attack in the NFL and we're proud that he's not even in the top 10 of the most meaningless stat ever created. Are you guys even watching the games? If you are, how many times in a row do you need to see our QB completely get shut down with the game on the line? Because of our offensive scheme I also feel that passing yards is not a good stat to evaluate just like qbr There has to be other ones that accurate show Tyrod's regression.....it is there.....but which ones accurate reflect it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jms62 Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Because of our offensive scheme I also feel that passing yards is not a good stat to evaluate just like qbr There has to be other ones that accurate show Tyrod's regression.....it is there.....but which ones accurate reflect it? YPA and TD's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Because of our offensive scheme I also feel that passing yards is not a good stat to evaluate just like qbr There has to be other ones that accurate show Tyrod's regression.....it is there.....but which ones accurate reflect it? All of the %throws show it, and YPA. TT throws more picks, less TDs and less yards per throw this year, with less excuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridge Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 There will be a lot of attempts to defend Taylor and make it all feel like he was an average QB this offseason. I simply cannot accept his 4th quarter play game after game when the team needs him to step up the most. All winnable situations against good teams have been failures. Yes, he can light up the 49ers for 45 points, crush the Browns for 30+, and beat the Cardinals big at home. I'm sure his stats look great as he's doing too little too late (failed Jets, Steelers "comebacks" this year) and crushing bad teams. Please convince yourselves that he is worthy of this contract. I'm sure it will help you get through the 18th and 19th year of no playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 good enough quarterback. Buffalo mentality. "hey, he's 'good enough.' " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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