DrDawkinstein Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 He did try and re-sign Byrd but at a contract that was reasonable for a safety. They had their limit and refused to be bullied into going higher - that is good GM-ship. On Spiller they were trying to sign him until a better option came along. I also disagree that he overpays as a rule - Clay he definitely did, McCoy can be argued.... but the trade up for Watkins was a good one, I still believe that. Draft picks only matter as a mechanism for acquiring talented players... the goal isn't to have as many draft picks as possible..... it is to pick as many talented guys as possible and within that to get as many "elite talents" as possible. Whaley has done a good job in that regard. Yeah, not sure how someone can point out that we let Byrd and Spiller walk because we knew their true value, didnt want to overpay, and stuck to our guns... and then in the same breath criticize the GM for always overpaying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Yeah, not sure how someone can point out that we let Byrd and Spiller walk because we knew their true value, didnt want to overpay, and stuck to our guns... and then in the same breath criticize the GM for always overpaying... Would it be a case of him thinking even the offers were overpaying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Whaley has a decent eye for talent. But let's not pretend that he didn't try to re-sign Spiller and Byrd. I take that back, make believe as you will. The thing is, he over-pays and gives away draft picks that the team needs. #Draft Picks Matter! My recollection was he was willing to resign them but at a reasonable price. When free agency upped the ante he passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Would it be a case of him thinking even the offers were overpaying? Sure, I just dont think that's much of a criticism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Draft picks only matter as a mechanism for acquiring talented players... the goal isn't to have as many draft picks as possible..... it is to pick as many talented guys as possible and within that to get as many "elite talents" as possible. Whaley has done a good job in that regard. This can be debated. I think the better method IMO is trading down for max value and quantity. This standpoint is strengthened by the injuries to Ragland, Lawson, and Watkins. Lots of players get hurt in the NFL. Depth is critical. The gap between player skills is not all that great. What is between the ears is increasing in importance. It is all about who does the work for conditioning and preparation... and who has a coaching staff that best instills and demands that culture. You let players walk to save your cap and you have a good enough scouting staff and can sift through and find the right players to keep the engine running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 This can be debated. I think the better method IMO is trading down for max value and quantity. This standpoint is strengthened by the injuries to Ragland, Lawson, and Watkins. Lots of players get hurt in the NFL. Depth is critical. The gap between player skills is not all that great. What is between the ears is increasing in importance. It is all about who does the work for conditioning and preparation... and who has a coaching staff that best instills and demands that culture. You let players walk to save your cap and you have a good enough scouting staff and can sift through and find the right players to keep the engine running. He has picked good players. That is what matters. It comes down to talent evaluation first and foremost. They have evaluated well and drafted good players including some elite players. That is worth much more than depth roster fillers. Besides - Whaley has shown himself well above NFL GM average in finding dust settle no name free agents to provide that depth. Brown and Alexander are just the most recent examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Would it be a case of him thinking even the offers were overpaying?Yes NS, this is, and was at the time my train of thought. It would have been very bad for the team if he was successful in his attempt to sign either or both of them, and I was concerned about it at the time. I am NOT saying he is horrible in all aspects of his job. I do however think that he is a bit amateurish in dealing with agents and other GMs. Hey, jmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Yes NS, this is, and was at the time my train of thought. It would have been very bad for the team if he was successful in his attempt to sign either or both of them, and I was concerned about it at the time. I am NOT saying he is horrible in all aspects of his job. I do however think that he is a bit amateurish in dealing with agents and other GMs. Hey, jmo. Yeah, but Ive also seen you recently say that we should let Gilmore walk and spend a 1st on a replacement CB, so I dont even know who you are anymore!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 (edited) He has picked good players. That is what matters. It comes down to talent evaluation first and foremost. They have evaluated well and drafted good players including some elite players. That is worth much more than depth roster fillers. Besides - Whaley has shown himself well above NFL GM average in finding dust settle no name free agents to provide that depth. Brown and Alexander are just the most recent examples. I like his drafting for the most part. But if he is that good, and the scouting staff is bolstered with Pegula bucks... it would be better if he wasnt spending multiple picks on Watkins, Ragland, and Bryce Brown. Would rather he trade down and get more good players. One example is 2013 (a draft I put on Whaley for good and bad, its ludicrous to think he was bound and gagged while Nix forced picks on him). Traded down, still had a shot at a QB (wrong move)... but also was able to get Kiko Alonso, Marquis Goodwin, and Chris Gragg with the windfall... and also was able to pick Robert Woods, Meeks, and Duke Williams.... (Dustin Hopkins too who is good but Carpenter was un-cuttable) If Whaley has a knack for identifying talent, that is more the reason to stack draft picks. Imagine the assets they would have had if they had traded down from #9 in 2014 instead of up for Watkins. Still could have gotten Derek Carr or Kelvin Benjamin no matter how far they traded down, plus had a pile of picks, as well as hanging on to their 2015 1st and 4th... plus a whole lot more from the trade. Edited October 6, 2016 by May Day 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Yes but yeezus will return when they bills lose and Whaley will suck again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 I like his drafting for the most part. But if he is that good, and the scouting staff is bolstered with Pegula bucks... it would be better if he wasnt spending multiple picks on Watkins, Ragland, and Bryce Brown. Would rather he trade down and get more good players. One example is 2013 (a draft I put on Whaley for good and bad, its ludicrous to think he was bound and gagged while Nix forced picks on him). Traded down, still had a shot at a QB (wrong move)... but also was able to get Kiko Alonso, Marquis Goodwin, and Chris Gragg with the windfall... and also was able to pick Robert Woods, Meeks, and Duke Williams.... (Dustin Hopkins too who is good but Carpenter was un-cuttable) If Whaley has a knack for identifying talent, that is more the reason to stack draft picks. Imagine the assets they would have had if they had traded down from #9 in 2014 instead of up for Watkins. Still could have gotten Derek Carr or Kelvin Benjamin no matter how far they traded down, plus had a pile of picks, as well as hanging on to their 2015 1st and 4th... plus a whole lot more from the trade. I can't get on board with the idea that drafting a QB was the wrong move. If they didn't do so, they'd have had the choice of Jeff Tuel and Thad Lewis all season once Kolb went down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 (edited) I can't get on board with the idea that drafting a QB was the wrong move. If they didn't do so, they'd have had the choice of Jeff Tuel and Thad Lewis all season once Kolb went down. Or they could have traded a 6th rounder for Carson Palmer like the Cardinals did that spring... or even kept Fitz. Regardless though, my main point was, they traded down and it had large benefits. If they did the same in the Watkins draft it could have potentially set this team up for years Edited October 6, 2016 by May Day 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Or they could have traded a 6th rounder for Carson Palmer like the Cardinals did that spring... or even kept Fitz. Regardless though, my main point was, they traded down and it had large benefits. If they did the same in the Watkins draft it could have potentially set this team up for years Not at the time of the draft--both of those ships had sailed. At the time of the draft, they had Kolb and Tarvaris Jackson under contract and that was it. Time may end up proving that a trade-down would've been better in 2014; at the time of the draft (again), Sammy was clear-and-away the #1 offensive prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Time may end up proving that a trade-down would've been better in 2014; at the time of the draft (again), Sammy was clear-and-away the #1 offensive prospect. I wanted him too... but I'm just a fan and wasn't privy to all the data on everyone. Justin Blackmon was also a cant-miss top of the draft WR prospect too who everyone thought would be great. IMO, unless you are going for and need a sure-fire QB prospect, always trade down. Any other position never seems like it is worth it most times, compared to having more assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 He has picked good players. That is what matters. It comes down to talent evaluation first and foremost. They have evaluated well and drafted good players including some elite players. That is worth much more than depth roster fillers. Besides - Whaley has shown himself well above NFL GM average in finding dust settle no name free agents to provide that depth. Brown and Alexander are just the most recent examples. Let's be fair here and salute the scouts who find players. We have good ones. High picks do matter but teams are built with free agents, low picks and UDFAs. You can hit every #1 pick and still suck if your supporting cast sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted October 6, 2016 Author Share Posted October 6, 2016 My recollection was he was willing to resign them but at a reasonable price. When free agency upped the ante he passed.Exactly. Levitre, Byrd and Spiller were all good football players at the time they hit FA. When is the last time a GM has let a good football player walk without at least seeing if he can re-sign them at what they consider to be a reasonable price? The point is that he did not think they were worth what they were being offered elsewhere and he gambled and won in all three instances.Yes but yeezus will return when they bills lose and Whaley will suck again.Even if the Bills lose on Sunday- which I think they will- it won't change any of the aforementioned headlines. Unless Karlos Williams signs somewhere else and runs for 100 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 I think they took the approach - understandably I suppose - that the limited resource they had this offseason would be spent on the defense - Lawson, Ragland, Washington, Zach, Blanton etc... At receiver as a result their plan was to bring in a lot of dumpster dive type guys who have had bits of success elsewhere and hope one really caught on or, as you say, they got a really big jump from Dez. Unfortunately neither of those things happened and they now know they are thin. Hence when Sammy went down there was no option but to look outside the organisation. Hunter is another reclamation project in truth - but let's see what we have there. The fact that we had to re-tool the defense against expectation really prevented Whaley from addressing the weapons on the outside as he may have wished. The Pats taking Hogan hurts too. He would be the clear #2 here opposite Woods right now. They def. took this approach to focus on D in the draft - until Rd 4. The legitimate questions are whether there was a WR they could have taken in FA, or in Rd 4-7 or UDFA who could have come in and helped in some capacity this year, as opposed to the speedy and relatively small Kolby Listenbee, whose sports hernia essentially made him a long-term project in addition to his draft profile description as "Listenbee is a sprinter who plays wide receiver" known to have run a simple route tree and to lack sophistication in change of direction etc. The decision to draft Jonathan Williams in the 5th makes more sense retrospectively - players talk so even though Karlos missed voluntary off-season conditioning they probably knew there was a problem if they didn't already know about the drug tests. But there are a couple of WR who were drafted in the 5th round who are contributing pretty nicely, and there are also some FA who were picked up by other teams and are doing well, so those guys were there. I don't mourn Hogan. I know he was hurt last year, I know he had off-season surgery on his wrist tendons last year, I know he has some very decent numbers considering who was throwing to him/passing game, but there's just something about the way he plays I don't like. It certainly can be argued he made his best play as a Bill last weekend . But I'd rather take my chances on Salas, who has shown some promise and similar decent numbers considering who was throwing to him (and Lal ought to know what we've got) and see what we have with Powell. Even if the Bills lose on Sunday- which I think they will- ugh, et tu metzelaars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Let's be fair here and salute the scouts who find players. We have good ones. High picks do matter but teams are built with free agents, low picks and UDFAs. You can hit every #1 pick and still suck if your supporting cast sucks. Indeed. I have seen Monos' name mentioned as a possible GM contender in some quarters. The Bills personnel staff at the moment is pretty strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaadThingsMan Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Yes but what if they lose next week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobot Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Would it be a case of him thinking even the offers were overpaying? That would be like giving a GM credit for almost drafting Tom Brady... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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