eball Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 I know there are some vociferous posters who really hate the deal the Bills signed Shady to after acquiring him from Philly. Per Spotrac, Shady's cap hit this season is 4.88% of the Bills' overall cap. My question for those who love, hate, or don't care about the contract is this -- is <5% of the team salary cap appropriate for a player of Shady's abilities? FYI, that ranks 4th on the roster, behind Dareus, Glenn, and Gilmore. Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark80 Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) When healthy he has just as much positive impact on our team as ANY other player. He is a phenomenal talent and if you can't see the difference between him and the vast majority of the other RBs in the league then you have simply convinced yourself that every RB is a dime a dozen and there is no convincing you otherwise. So, in short, I think he is worth it for sure. Edited May 3, 2016 by Mark80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 The Bills' roster and cap situation is rather unique in that it has a very low amount of $$ allocated to the QB position. So if you factor in the fact that Tyrod is playing for $1M or whatever, I think it justifies a higher-than-normal allocation of cap dollars to other positions, including running back. That said, putting aside his contract number, I question Shady's fit for Roman's offense. Seemed to me that Karlos and Gilleslee ran Roman's plays just as well, if not better than Shady. And I'm a HUGE fan of the Jon Williams pick and I think he too will thrive in Roman's offense. So I'm not sure we need Shady at all (I know it's sacrilege, but I'd much rather have a playmaking linebacker who can defend the pass well...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 What we say when he was healthy? Yes, absolutely. I will never forget him stiffarming Wilkerson four yards behind the line of scrimmage and then getting the first down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not at the table Karlos Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) The Bills' roster and cap situation is rather unique in that it has a very low amount of $$ allocated to the QB position. So if you factor in the fact that Tyrod is playing for $1M or whatever, I think it justifies a higher-than-normal allocation of cap dollars to other positions, including running back. That said, putting aside his contract number, I question Shady's fit for Roman's offense. Seemed to me that Karlos and Gilleslee ran Roman's plays just as well, if not better than Shady. And I'm a HUGE fan of the Jon Williams pick and I think he too will thrive in Roman's offense. So I'm not sure we need Shady at all (I know it's sacrilege, but I'd much rather have a playmaking linebacker who can defend the pass well...) agree with pretty much everything here. Jon Williams reminds me of a poor man's zeke elliott. I want shady on our team I just don't want to pay him that much. Edited May 3, 2016 by Not at the table Karlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 You asked a yes or no question. The answer is yes. agree with pretty much everything here. Jon Williams reminds me of a poor man's zeke elliott. I want shady on our team I just don't want to pay him that much. We're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 The only question in my mind wrt Shady is will he self-destruct (on or off the field) before the last year in his contract. And make no mistake, that will be the end of his career as a Bill. Either his self-destruction or when his current contract runs out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 I say yes, when healthy. So it'll just depend on that. If he can play 14 games or more this year, that's good value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 This is Shadys last year as a Bill. You don't pay a RB that much money, IMO. Once we have to pay Tyrod he will be forced to take a pay cut(which he won't take) and he will be gone. The Panthers are paying Jonathan Stewart more. You actually do pay running backs that kind of money. Shady is no ordinary running back. The offense's production with him in and out of games is starkly different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 This is Shadys last year as a Bill. You don't pay a RB that much money, IMO. Once we have to pay Tyrod he will be forced to take a pay cut(which he won't take) and he will be gone. Incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 For comparison's sake--and eBall is on point looking at the cap pct and not the real number--Marshawn is 7.44. Now, he's retired. But put it things into perspective. Elite running backs get paid. We have one of them and his pay is commensurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not at the table Karlos Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 We're not. how do you figure? He is the second highest paid back in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Peterson is 7.65, how do you figure? He is the second highest paid back in the NFL. According to what metric? All that matters to our team is how much pct of the cap he consumes. And compared to other elite backs, it's on point or affordable. Jonathan Stewart is more than 6. The only costs that matter when looking at player value is opportunity cost. Doesn't matter how much a guy is paid, it matter how much it impacts the team's ability to pay others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not at the table Karlos Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Was looking at total contract not cap hit. My bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 I think an elite running back like Shady on a Greg Roman offense is clearly worth 5% of the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Starkly different? I saw a street FA signed late in the season with similar production to McCoys. No you didn't. Gillsie did not have McCoy's production. In his five games with Buffalo Gillslie had 296 yfs. In 12 games McCoy had 1187. That's 59.2 ypg compared to 98.9. Unless you meant something different by "similar." Second, we're not talking about individuals here, we're talking about the team's production. McCoy added a dimension to the offense that neither Karlos nor Gillsile did. This is not debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freddie's Dead Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 The answer to the OP's question is yes. The question I have is "Are we getting our money's worth?" The answer to that question is "So far, no". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Starkly different? I saw a street FA signed late in the season with similar production to McCoys. This is amazing. You whine about how terrible the team is and you want to make the team worse by getting rid of the focal point of the top rushing offense. Off season TSW strikes again. Hot take overload this month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 The Bills' roster and cap situation is rather unique in that it has a very low amount of $$ allocated to the QB position. So if you factor in the fact that Tyrod is playing for $1M or whatever, I think it justifies a higher-than-normal allocation of cap dollars to other positions, including running back. That said, putting aside his contract number, I question Shady's fit for Roman's offense. Seemed to me that Karlos and Gilleslee ran Roman's plays just as well, if not better than Shady. And I'm a HUGE fan of the Jon Williams pick and I think he too will thrive in Roman's offense. So I'm not sure we need Shady at all (I know it's sacrilege, but I'd much rather have a playmaking linebacker who can defend the pass well...) Gillislee and Karlos were clearly more effective. They produced all of the big runs and scored the vast majority of the TD's. It's hard to argue with the fact that they fit and follow the scheme better than the high-mileage waterbug Shady. Truth is in 3 of the past 4 seasons his ypc has hovered around league average and in 2014 he had the lowest yards per touch of any qualifying player in the entire NFL. The big year he had in between was the first year of Chip Kelly's system in the NFL.....the same year Nick Foles threw for like 27 TD's and like 2 interceptions......the scheme initially caught most teams off-guard. So if he isn't about big plays, doesn't provide a physical presence in the run game and has to come off the field in short yardage and goal line........what is so great about him? This is his last year as a Bill......and that being the case his total cap hit will be $26.5M for two seasons of being on the team. That is a staggering amount of money for a RB with such a hollow impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted May 3, 2016 Author Share Posted May 3, 2016 This is his last year as a Bill......and that being the case his total cap hit will be $26.5M for two seasons of being on the team. That is a staggering amount of money for a RB with such a hollow impact. It's 4.88% of the cap this year, which is the original question. You're on record that he's not worth it, although your answer could have been more succinct. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Gillislee and Karlos were clearly more effective. They produced all of the big runs and scored the vast majority of the TD's. It's hard to argue with the fact that they fit and follow the scheme better than the high-mileage waterbug Shady. Truth is in 3 of the past 4 seasons his ypc has hovered around league average and in 2014 he had the lowest yards per touch of any qualifying player in the entire NFL. The big year he had in between was the first year of Chip Kelly's system in the NFL.....the same year Nick Foles threw for like 27 TD's and like 2 interceptions......the scheme initially caught most teams off-guard. So if he isn't about big plays, doesn't provide a physical presence in the run game and has to come off the field in short yardage and goal line........what is so great about him? This is his last year as a Bill......and that being the case his total cap hit will be $26.5M for two seasons of being on the team. That is a staggering amount of money for a RB with such a hollow impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 This is Shadys last year as a Bill. You don't pay a RB that much money, IMO. Once we have to pay Tyrod he will be forced to take a pay cut(which he won't take) and he will be gone. 205# RBs who depend on speed and elusiveness with 7 seasons and upwards of 2k touches behind them typically don't maintain a high level of production. Thurman started slowing down around year 7 and he was a similar type back if a comparison could be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) Right now, yes. You think the Bills will have any issues cutting him to get Tyrod signed after this season if they need the cap? The Bills have enough cap next year to sign Taylor, Gilmore, and Glenn without touching Shady's deal. If they cut Shady next year it's almost 8 million in dead cap money for a million in cap savings. If they're going to cut Shady for financial reason it'll be after the '17 season. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/lesean-mccoy/ This is his last year as a Bill..... Not a chance. Edited May 3, 2016 by Deranged Rhino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Was looking at total contract not cap hit. My bad Either way, it is WAY too much money. We could also do without the off field antics, no? There was no reason to re-work his contract. None whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted May 3, 2016 Author Share Posted May 3, 2016 I'm not the "expert" many of you claim to be, but when Shady was healthy last season he was a difference maker for the offense. Failure to admit that brings one's credibility into question. If you believe the injuries are the result of him getting older so be it. If he just had some bad luck last year, however, I don't see how he won't be worth every penny this season based upon what I saw when he was out there last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 It's 4.88% of the cap this year, which is the original question. You're on record that he's not worth it, although your answer could have been more succinct. Thanks. It's a misleading question. His deal included $26.5M in guarantees. The better question is next year when he is not on the team will he be worth the cap space he will be occupying? Look at the impact that Mario's dead money has had this offseason...........if the Biills had that $10-12M back to work with do you think they could have helped themselves out a little? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 It's a misleading question. His deal included $26.5M in guarantees. The better question is next year when he is not on the team will he be worth the cap space he will be occupying? Look at the impact that Mario's dead money has had this offseason...........if the Biills had that $10-12M back to work with do you think they could have helped themselves out a little? So what are we betting on this? Come on, you claimed last year Shady would be out of the league before he turned 30. What are you willing to put up if and when Shady is a Bill next season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted May 3, 2016 Author Share Posted May 3, 2016 It's a misleading question. His deal included $26.5M in guarantees. The better question is next year when he is not on the team will he be worth the cap space he will be occupying? Look at the impact that Mario's dead money has had this offseason...........if the Biills had that $10-12M back to work with do you think they could have helped themselves out a little? The question was about this season, not future seasons. You answered a different question in order to fit your narrative...I'm simply calling you on it. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 I'm not the "expert" many of you claim to be, but when Shady was healthy last season he was a difference maker for the offense. Failure to admit that brings one's credibility into question. If you believe the injuries are the result of him getting older so be it. If he just had some bad luck last year, however, I don't see how he won't be worth every penny this season based upon what I saw when he was out there last season. e-man, do you think that the eagles had any reason to get rid of Shady? Was it because Chip Kelly is a racist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 e-man, do you think that the eagles had any reason to get rid of Shady? Was it because Chip Kelly is a racist? No, it was because Chip Kelly bungled his tenure with that team... Shipping Shady off was part of that bungle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 The Bills have enough cap next year to sign Taylor, Gilmore, and Glenn without touching Shady's deal. If they cut Shady next year it's almost 8 million in dead cap money for a million in cap savings. If they're going to cut Shady for financial reason it'll be after the '17 season. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/lesean-mccoy/ Not a chance. He won't play for the Bills in 2018. There's a chance he won't play in 2017. But I'm certain he's gone before 2018. Lol. How many carries did McCoy have and how many did Gillsile have? YPC? I'm not saying Gillsile is on the same level as McCoy. I'm saying the difference in production isn't that significant. You mean like when Gillslie was the feature back? Like in week 17? His yards per touch were 1.17. He had no catches in that game. He finished with 24 rushing attempts for 28 yards. Against the same team earlier in the season, on the road McCoy had 112 yards on 19 carries and caught five passes for 47 yards. But let's back up. Do you really mean to suggest that Mike Gillislie is about as good as LeSean McCoy? Is that really your premise here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted May 3, 2016 Author Share Posted May 3, 2016 e-man, do you think that the eagles had any reason to get rid of Shady? Was it because Chip Kelly is a racist? Chip thinks he's smarter than everyone, just like a lot of folks. I think Chip's personnel decisions in the NFL speak for themselves thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Either way, it is WAY too much money. We could also do without the off field antics, no? There was no reason to re-work his contract. None whatsoever. Um. This is bizarrely inaccurate. He was due a new contract. He had zero guaranteed money and was under contract for like $1 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 He won't play for the Bills in 2018. There's a chance he won't play in 2017. But I'm certain he's gone before 2018. Unless I've misunderstood Scott and BADOL -- they're saying he won't be on the team in 2017. That's silly barring injury. They won't cut a 28 year old back to save 1 million in cap room. The deal was structured so they could walk away in 2018 at the earliest, 2019 for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 The better question is next year when he is not on the team will he be worth the cap space he will be occupying? Smoke another one/have another beer and tell us some more tales of the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Um. This is bizarrely inaccurate. He was due a new contract. He had zero guaranteed money and was under contract for like $1 million. The gave him way too much money under any circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted May 3, 2016 Author Share Posted May 3, 2016 Unless I've misunderstood Scott and BADOL -- they're saying he won't be on the team in 2017. That's silly barring injury. They won't cut a 28 year old back to save 1 million in cap room. The deal was structured so they could walk away in 2018 at the earliest, 2019 for sure. Yup. Shady will almost certainly be playing for the Bills in 2017. After that, it's anybody's guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Unless I've misunderstood Scott and BADOL -- they're saying he won't be on the team in 2017. That's silly barring injury. They won't cut a 28 year old back to save 1 million in cap room. The deal was structured so they could walk away in 2018 at the earliest, 2019 for sure. Yeah, I think it's wildly premature to say--definitively--that this is his last season. But I don't dismiss the possibility. The gave him way too much money under any circumstances. As a percentage of our cap? Strongly disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 The gave him way too much money under any circumstances. We will have to agree to disagree. What player (or players) would you rather have seen the Bills allocate 5% of their cap to if not an elite running back to anchor their run first scheme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) Chip thinks he's smarter than everyone, just like a lot of folks. I think Chip's personnel decisions in the NFL speak for themselves thus far. When the Bills make the playoffs, let's sit around and question the personnel decisions of other teams. Edited May 3, 2016 by Bill from NYC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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