The Doug Whaley positives are taking huge hits.

[C.Biscuit97]

Preston Brown was a good draft pick also until the Rex scheme came to town.

There seems to be a theme.

[FireChan]

 

Can you help by providing info as to who these posters are, or maybe links?

 

I don't remember that but I could have missed it.

 

Inside info is a tricky thing. For example, some people with "inside info" have said Brandon is still involved in player personnel/draft decisions and other football ops matters?

 

Anyway, it could be true. The team put itself into a position where it pretty much had to swing at QB during the 2013 draft, which was not a great draft for QB to swing at. That wasn't all Whaley's doing, whether or not the draft choice was. As to blaming Whaley for EJ or any other draft choice that doesn't work out, the Cold Hard Football Facts are that even high-1st round QB have something like a 50% success rate in the NFL, and that's if you count guys who sort of have a "servicable guy" career as successes. So a GM has to swing, knowing half the time he'll miss. What he needs to get judged on is if his personnel decisions (draft, UDFA, FA, trades) provide what the team needs more often than not.

 

LOL. And Goodwin. A good GM would predict Goodwin's broken ribs. And Glenn's kidney.

 

Kouandjio, OTOH, was a calculated risk (known knee problems addressed surgically) that appears to have flamed out.

One I know for sure is K-9. He has stressed emphatically that Whaley was in the Kirk Chair. Links are here. There was another but I'm not sure I remember the name.

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/162987-is-it-too-early-to-give-buddy-credit-for-last-draft-class/?p=2953954

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/162987-is-it-too-early-to-give-buddy-credit-for-last-draft-class/?p=2954248

 

The highlights.

 

Doug Whaley was in the Kirk chair from what I've heard.

 

Technically, Whaley was promoted in May. Functionally, he had been taking over more and more of the GM duties upon the completion of the '11 season. It was a show of respect to Buddy Nix to allow him to retain the title until after the draft. And it was the classy thing to do. Also, from a continuity standpoint owed to the year long process of preparing for a draft, it made sense as well.

 

He's a poster I really respect, so for the purposes of this argument, I'm taking his word for it. And as a side note, look how hard everyone in that topic was trying to give Whaley credit for the 2013 draft. A real interesting look at how the narrative changes when the wind blows the other way.

 

As to the Seantrel point, as long as the NFL continues to be a results-driven business, it doesn't much matter. Our 7th round pick may never play on this team again. That's not good.

Good GMs: the ones with franchise Qbs.

 

It's hilarious how some posters act like GMs never miss picks. The Pats miss on picks all the time. We don't have a top 5 qb so our misses stand out more. We had a winning record with Kyle Orton last year.

 

And whaley's biggest problem with the EJ pick is he and Marrone weren't on the same page. If you pick a qb that high, the GM and the coach better be on the same page. Now, Marrone is coaching olines.

1.3 players per draft is the norm in the NFL for good GM's?

There seems to be a theme.

And with Whaley giving the Rex hire his vote of confidence, he shares in the blame of that as well.

Edited January 2, 2016 by FireChan

[Rob's House]

 

Can you help by providing info as to who these posters are, or maybe links?

 

I don't remember that but I could have missed it.

 

Inside info is a tricky thing. For example, some people with "inside info" have said Brandon is still involved in player personnel/draft decisions and other football ops matters?

 

Anyway, it could be true. The team put itself into a position where it pretty much had to swing at QB during the 2013 draft, which was not a great draft for QB to swing at. That wasn't all Whaley's doing, whether or not the draft choice was. As to blaming Whaley for EJ or any other draft choice that doesn't work out, the Cold Hard Football Facts are that even high-1st round QB have something like a 50% success rate in the NFL, and that's if you count guys who sort of have a "servicable guy" career as successes. So a GM has to swing, knowing half the time he'll miss. What he needs to get judged on is if his personnel decisions (draft, UDFA, FA, trades) provide what the team needs more often than not.

 

 

LOL. And Goodwin. A good GM would predict Goodwin's broken ribs. And Glenn's kidney.

 

Kouandjio, OTOH, was a calculated risk (known knee problems addressed surgically) that appears to have flamed out.

I hear this oft repeated but I don't really understand the logic behind it. I mean, I get that we weren't in a great position with QB, but I don't see why we had to take a first round QB when one wasn't available.

 

What good came of that move, and how would we have been worse off taking a 3rd or 4th round flier on a Jones/Glennon/Barkley type?

Edited January 2, 2016 by Rob's House

[FireChan]

I hear this oft repeated but I don't really understand the logic behind it. I mean, I get that we weren't in a great position with QB, but I don't see why we had to take a first round QB when one wasn't available.

 

What good came of that move, and how would we have been worse off taking a 3rd or 4th round flier on a Jones/Glennon/Barkley type?

Nothing but we were forced because we just had to cut FItz and had to sign Kevin Kolb who no one could see ever getting hurt.

[C.Biscuit97]

One I know for sure is K-9. He has stressed emphatically that Whaley was in the Kirk Chair. Links are here. There was another but I'm not sure I remember the name.

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/162987-is-it-too-early-to-give-buddy-credit-for-last-draft-class/?p=2953954

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/162987-is-it-too-early-to-give-buddy-credit-for-last-draft-class/?p=2954248

 

The highlights.

 

Doug Whaley was in the Kirk chair from what I've heard.

 

Technically, Whaley was promoted in May. Functionally, he had been taking over more and more of the GM duties upon the completion of the '11 season. It was a show of respect to Buddy Nix to allow him to retain the title until after the draft. And it was the classy thing to do. Also, from a continuity standpoint owed to the year long process of preparing for a draft, it made sense as well.

 

He's a poster I really respect, so for the purposes of this argument, I'm taking his word for it. And as a side note, look how hard everyone in that topic was trying to give Whaley credit for the 2013 draft. A real interesting look at how the narrative changes when the wind blows the other way.

 

As to the Seantrel point, as long as the NFL continues to be a results-driven business, it doesn't much matter. Our 7th round pick may never play on this team again. That's not good.

 

1.3 players per draft is the norm in the NFL for good GM's?

 

And with Whaley giving the Rex hire his vote of confidence, he shares in the blame of that as well.

Rex was a Pegula hire. That's why I give Whaley more of the benefit of the doubt. There was plenty of talent on this football team. A guy who was thought of as a defensive mastermind somehow ruined a top 5 defense.

[FireChan]

Rex was a Pegula hire. That's why I give Whaley more of the benefit of the doubt. There was plenty of talent on this football team. A guy who was thought of as a defensive mastermind somehow ruined a top 5 defense.

The Pegulas didn't tell Whaley to say that him and Rex were finishing each other's sentences, or that they had the exact same ideas for building a team. They also didn't tell Whaley to put Rex on his list of HC's he wanted to interview.

Edited January 2, 2016 by FireChan

[boater]

.....This year, Darby, miller, and Karlos and that's bad? Sheesh!

Agree.

 

Also add the pick up of Tyrod (he is good, despite what the negative nancy's say)... and the fleecing of the Eagles for McCoy.

 

At a minimum, DW is in the top 33 percentile of GMs.

[Nanker]

Rex is already more successful than Maroon was in his first year here. JHFC some people are like little babies with poopie diapers and that need a bottle.

[FireChan]

Rex is already more successful than Maroon was in his first year here. JHFC some people are like little babies with poopie diapers and that need a bottle.

Great point! Those offenses had very similar personnel, including QB!

[C.Biscuit97]

Rex is already more successful than Maroon was in his first year here. JHFC some people are like little babies with poopie diapers and that need a bottle.

This team was set up better to win.

 

I don't miss Marrone and Hackett at all. I just had no idea I'd miss Schwartz so much.

[Augie]

There seems to be a theme.

Yes, you can't blame Whaley for how Rex uses them. I use my eye test, one of the two I like. The other one is Rex.

[Coach Tuesday]

Hell is a never-ending FireChan argument.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

One I know for sure is K-9. He has stressed emphatically that Whaley was in the Kirk Chair. Links are here. There was another but I'm not sure I remember the name.

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/162987-is-it-too-early-to-give-buddy-credit-for-last-draft-class/?p=2953954

 

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/162987-is-it-too-early-to-give-buddy-credit-for-last-draft-class/?p=2954248

 

The highlights.

 

Doug Whaley was in the Kirk chair from what I've heard.

 

Technically, Whaley was promoted in May. Functionally, he had been taking over more and more of the GM duties upon the completion of the '11 season. It was a show of respect to Buddy Nix to allow him to retain the title until after the draft. And it was the classy thing to do. Also, from a continuity standpoint owed to the year long process of preparing for a draft, it made sense as well.

 

He's a poster I really respect, so for the purposes of this argument, I'm taking his word for it. And as a side note, look how hard everyone in that topic was trying to give Whaley credit for the 2013 draft. A real interesting look at how the narrative changes when the wind blows the other way.

 

Thanks, appreciate you taking the time to find those.

I hear this oft repeated but I don't really understand the logic behind it. I mean, I get that we weren't in a great position with QB, but I don't see why we had to take a first round QB when one wasn't available.

 

What good came of that move, and how would we have been worse off taking a 3rd or 4th round flier on a Jones/Glennon/Barkley type?

 

Good points. I think there are two components to the argument (viewed in an abstract sense): 1) we had to take a QB because essentially Nix put us in that position when Fitz was released, presumably with Marrone's buy-in. 2) we had to take a QB because Nix still had some influence and he dug in his heels and said "we're gonna get a QB before I step down.

 

I don't see how we would have been worse at all taking Glennon, who is about a Manuel-level player. And I don't see how we would have been worse keeping Fitz, which I think we could have done (despite the Catfish phone call) if we had actually negotiated with him in good faith instead of (if he is to be believed) laying out an offer he couldn't accept and saying "take it or go". We arguably could have spent less overall than we did on Kolb, TJax, and Orton, and gotten better QB play as well as a mentor for whomever we did draft.

Edited January 2, 2016 by Hopeful

[RealityCheck]

Whaley has had to draft, sign, trade and make decisions on personnel for 3 different defensive schemes and 2 different offensive schemes in 3 years. Changing schemes plays havoc on roster development and sustaining fit. In that regard, what he has done is quite impressive. It will for so much easier for him in 2016 with two years of the same schemes on both sides. IMO.

 

He is very well respected mostly for his pro scouting, which is his background.

Wow! Talk about a golden nutshell. Whaley is a keeper. Let him do his job and get the players that Rex needs. The players crying to the media have shown their true colors and the opportunity exists for some real progress moving forward. Football IQ and "want to" seems to be lost on some of the players. Intelligent players with less athleticism than some of our players have had great success in RR's defense over the course of a decade.

[Best Player Available]

Whaley has had to draft, sign, trade and make decisions on personnel for 3 different defensive schemes and 2 different offensive schemes in 3 years. Changing schemes plays havoc on roster development and sustaining fit. In that regard, what he has done is quite impressive. It will for so much easier for him in 2016 with two years of the same schemes on both sides. IMO.

He is very well respected mostly for his pro scouting, which is his background.

Your pretty dialed into NFL talk, etc. the comment " he is very well respected for his pro scouting........"

very well could have a bit of validity. but for three years this type of comment is repeated over and over. yet never with a link.

So, is there a link to any NFL executives anywhere actually saying that about Whaley? In some respects it is a believable comment. yet, I have never seen another teams exec. In print saying anything close to that? Possible local media has said it. What is that worth?

Whaley has presided over a medicore team. W's are a huge measuring stick. Polian got them, Doug does not. The immediate future looks like more of the same. it would be nice to actually read some executives comments about Whaley.

Who has actually gone on record on Whaley's perceived respect as a pro scout much less a successful GM?

[Rico]

Your pretty dialed into NFL talk, etc. the comment " he is very well respected for his pro scouting........"

very well could have a bit of validity. but for three years this type of comment is repeated over and over. yet never with a link.

So, is there a link to any NFL executives anywhere actually saying that about Whaley? In some respects it is a believable comment. yet, I have never seen another teams exec. In print saying anything close to that? Possible local media has said it. What is that worth?

Whaley has presided over a medicore team. W's are a huge measuring stick. Polian got them, Doug does not. The immediate future looks like more of the same. it would be nice to actually read some executives comments about Whaley.

Who has actually gone on record on Whaley's perceived respect as a pro scout much less a successful GM?

Russ Brandon, that's one. Steelers probably said something good about him too, though AFAIK they didn't try to keep him..

Edited January 2, 2016 by Rico

[C.Biscuit97]

Russ Brandon, that's one. Steelers probably said something good about him too, though AFAIK they didn't try to keep him..

Huh? The Bills gave him a big promotion and essentially made him the GM in waiting. The Steelers would be richards to block him from leaving.

[boyst]

Hell is a never-ending FireChan argument.

considering the points he has been making and the passion he has put in to them it is quite amazing he has stood up and won many of them. time will tell if he is right, though.

 

i am didn't win fantasy football

i have really enjoyed your posts of recent. seems like a bug has been up your arse with the way you've responded but you've been making some strong counter points to a lot of the drivel that is spewed here.

[YoloinOhio]

Your pretty dialed into NFL talk, etc. the comment " he is very well respected for his pro scouting........"

very well could have a bit of validity. but for three years this type of comment is repeated over and over. yet never with a link.

So, is there a link to any NFL executives anywhere actually saying that about Whaley? In some respects it is a believable comment. yet, I have never seen another teams exec. In print saying anything close to that? Possible local media has said it. What is that worth?

Whaley has presided over a medicore team. W's are a huge measuring stick. Polian got them, Doug does not. The immediate future looks like more of the same. it would be nice to actually read some executives comments about Whaley.

Who has actually gone on record on Whaley's perceived respect as a pro scout much less a successful GM?

personal connections.

 

Who also don't think much of his "bold moves" fwiw but they are just curmudgeons ( IMO of course)

Edited January 3, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[John from Riverside]

The Pegulas didn't tell Whaley to say that him and Rex were finishing each other's sentences, or that they had the exact same ideas for building a team. They also didn't tell Whaley to put Rex on his list of HC's he wanted to interview.

Your smarter then this

 

So your saying that if Rex convinced the Pegulas who were HEAVILY involved in this process that Doug Whaley is gonna say "Oh no im putting my foot down here"

 

No GM in Whaley's position is going to do that

 

Look....some of Whaley's picks did not pan out....but your counting players but some of those players

 

Were the running for rookie defensive player of the year

Were traded to other teams

Had injuries or things that came up AFTER they were drafted

 

For example

 

WHaley drafted a linebacker who was in the running for rookie defensive player of the year (he has actually drafted 2 in consecutive years).....took a completely unforseen Injury....then was traded for a top 5 (at the time) running back.

 

and

 

Whalyey drafted a OT in the late rounds that ended up being a starter for us......then we find out later that he has a unforseen desease

 

THOSE ARE NOT NEGATIVES ON WHALEY........

 

The QB pick is unfortunate....and in hindsight probably not the right pick......but GM's do this....GMs overdraft QBs when they dont have one.

 

And lets not do revisionist history on Ryan Fitzpatric....who has a history of coming up small at the biggest times in his career. We gave him that huge contract and he didnt live up to it.