The Whaley / Ryan / Dareus disconnect

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

First of all I would like to thank Doug Whaley for the job he has done. No GM hits on all his selections but he has hit on most and has brought in some top level talent in Free agency. After many many years of watching a team with no talent on its roster he has brought hope to this organization and for that he should be applauded.

 

3 Players the fans love to complain about when it comes to Whaley.

 

EJ Manuel - I am reading several of you complaining that DW does not know how to evaluate quarterbacks. He took a shot on EJ and there wasn't a better quarterback in that draft to take a risk on. There has been no one in free agency and if there was he would have done every sales pitch to get him. Why people are angry for taking a risk on EJ is beyond me. At some point after years without a QB he had to roll the dice. Just because it hasn't worked doesn't mean it was not worth the gamble. The bottom line is we had to draft one that year and they all blow in my opinion. EJ just had the arm and stature to try and make something work even though it hasn't.

 

Sammy Watkins - Sammy Watkins unfortunately cannot stay healthy and yes it gets aggravating but I think we should watch more of his career before we jump on Whaley. Watkins was the #1 WR in the draft by everyone, including the fans, experts, and scouts. I think he has shown flashes when healthy that he is the real deal and to give up draft picks (unproven college players) for a guy most feel has star potential is not a bad move. I know there have been several proven WR's that came out of the draft but no one has a crystal ball if so 32 teams would have taken Russell Wilson instead of passing up on him 3 times.

 

Fred Jackson - The easiest move of them all. He was old, injury prone and making over 2 million dollars. I love Fred Jackson but he is not better than Mccoy and he wasn't worth stealing carries from Karlos Williams. Again if DW had a crystal ball he would have known Mccoy and Williams would be hurt and would have kept Jackson. Boobie was kept over Fred because 3rd string running backs needs to help on special teams and not just sit the bench. DW of course would of rather had Fred run the ball over Boobie but how many 3rd string guys are kept because the front office thinks they will have to run the ball. 2.5 million to sit the bench and not play special teams, "seriously folks". By the way, has Fred been playing a whole lot in Seattle?

 

Doug Whaley has improved our secondary, our offensive line, our tight ends, our wide receivers, our running backs and our depth. I also feel he has upgraded our QB with Tyrod Taylor, another terrific find and a QB many teams wished they had. If there is a major knock on Whaley at this point it's that he hasn't hit on a coach yet unless Rex can turn things around.

 

[JohnC]

Some excellent points here considering the state of the current defense. Not to mention all the penalties this team has accrued this season so far in every aspect of the team is undisciplined. Offense, defense, and special teams.

 

The QB, and injuries aside this years team would be so much better with last years defense, and fewer penalties. That's all on the coaching!! The Pegula's need to kick some arse before the season is lost! (at the bye) If this same defensive scheme continues along with the penalties then the owners need to look for a better head coach. Perhaps offer Schwartz the HC job. JMO

The Pegulas were the most influential party in hiring Rex. They were involved in the interview with him and came away very impressed. They gave him a five year contract.

[stony]

When would you fire people? After 3-13?

Exactly correct. None of the rational fans were expecting league-leading offensive action. We could live with so-so offensive play of the promised "ground and pound" sort that avoided horrible mistakes and kept us in the game. What we weren't expecting was that one of the best defenses in the game, and one of the best special teams, would underachieve so horribly. That's the crux of the disgust with Rex.

 

Yeah. I'd give the guy I paid 25 million a chance to figure the thing out.

 

I'd trust in the architect of a roster that won 9 games last year and added talent in the off-season.

 

I'd "remind" my head coach about the stud personnel he's got up front and "suggest" he let em loose.

 

And I'd certainly resist the urge to do anything stupid after 6 games when half my skill players have been in the training room for the majority of the season.

[yungmack]

 

The problem isn't Rex IMO. This is the result of a poorly constructed/flawed roster.

As supposedly a knowledgeable fan of the Bills, you must know that the D was one of the best two years running under two different coordinators and two different styles. So if pretty much the same players are still on the roster, with the addition of a Darby and a Graham excelling at a new position, how do you reach the rather odd conclusion that this is a "poorly constructed/flawed roster"? Are you Rex Ryan's agent?

Some people talk about firing people after one loss or not big enough win and you are surprised they are talking about firing now? Some fans are worse than short traders.

Or maybe some fans are realists who are looking at the mess that is the Bills without rose-colored glasses.

[Jobot]

I understand the sentiment that "you have to resign your own players". I really do. Except that it really isn't true. CJ Spiller, Jairus Byrd were both talented players who performed well for the Bills whose cost just exceeded their market value.

 

Dareus had a very good season in the Jim Schwartz scheme and his market value probably shot up to near where the Bills resigned him (we did pay full price though).

 

The problem is that in the Rex Ryan scheme, DT is a really low value position. Dareus can execute perfectly what he is asked to do, and his role just isn't worthy of being the highest paid player on the team.

 

I am not sure what was the last championship team whose first or second highest paid player was a DT.

 

It seems like Ryan and Whaley need to communicate better on what positions mean the most in the schemes on both sides of the ball are.

 

Great point.

 

It really upsets me that Whaley was not in charge of selecting the head coach. Pegula pulled this crap when he purchased the sabres too. He went out threw money at the most expensive free agents without any unified stance throughout the organization. If he allows Rex to stay, I wouldn't be surprised if Whaley jets which would be horrible for the Bills, as he's brought in some incredible talent the past few years.

 

Ideally, Rex adapts for now, and can get on the same page as Whaley going forward. But like you said, money is now tied up long term in players that don't fit Rex's scheme! This sadly could be a recipe for the Bills sucking another 5 years.

 

Why does this team drive me so nuts

As supposedly a knowledgeable fan of the Bills, you must know that the D was one of the best two years running under two different coordinators and two different styles. So if pretty much the same players are still on the roster, with the addition of a Darby and a Graham excelling at a new position, how do you reach the rather odd conclusion that this is a "poorly constructed/flawed roster"? Are you Rex Ryan's agent?

Or maybe some fans are realists who are looking at the mess that is the Bills without rose-colored glasses.

 

 

One thing Bills fans are good at is knowing what a ****ty teams looks like! We've got the most experience out of any NFL Fan! If anything shouldn't be disregarded, it's when a Bills fan tells you that something sucks!

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

 

Yeah. I'd give the guy I paid 25 million a chance to figure the thing out.

 

I'd trust in the architect of a roster that won 9 games last year and added talent in the off-season.

 

I'd "remind" my head coach about the stud personnel he's got up front and "suggest" he let em loose.

 

And I'd certainly resist the urge to do anything stupid after 6 games when half my skill players have been in the training room for the majority of the season.

 

This.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

Why is the owner hiring the Head coach?

Because it's their team?

[Wagon Circler]

Whaley is in a tough spot because he didn't hire the 2 HC's during his tenure and whatever players he's acquired aren't necessarily going to play under the latest coaching staff.

 

The owner is not doing them any favors either considering that Whaley does not have the job security Rex enjoys. The idea it's as simple as Whaley having control over the 53 and Rex playing whom he wants on game-day is wrought with major issues.

 

This was evidenced by the handling of the QB situation. Whaley was high on Manuel whereas it appears Rex and the staff were not. And so Whaley traded the guy in the way of Manuel playing.

 

But the strategy building this roster has been something based on the 1970s because teams don't win with great defense and a strong run game. For those who think Seattle does this, well, they have Russell Wilson which allows them to throw when they have to. Buffalo doesn't have that capability and therefore gets into trouble when that situation presents itself.

Saying the Bills were high on Manuel because the News said so is bullbleep. Those guys don't know. Enough with all the rogue-WQhaley crap. IMHO, if anything, Ryan has too much power.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

I'm starting to think that Rex needs top-notch CBs, a top notch MLB and solid safeties to run his defense, with DL a secondary issue

Ummm Wilkerson, Henderson....

[BillsVet]

Saying the Bills were high on Manuel because the News said so is bullbleep. Those guys don't know. Enough with all the rogue-WQhaley crap. IMHO, if anything, Ryan has too much power.

 

Let's discount all news reporters now because we don't know who their sources are. Goodness.

 

I get that some Bills fans will never admit management is flawed and in the face of all objective evidence, will defend their team to the hilt regardless of results. But to universally say reporters "don't know" is why it's getting hard to debate people here. Actually, there's little debate, particularly when it involves critical thinking based on evidence.

 

The burden of proof is on those advocating for the team. That perspective has, especially since I've been on this board, been wrong most every time.

[JohnC]

 

Sad to hear.

 

Why is the owner hiring the Head coach?

When you pay $1.4 B it is difficult to say no to the boss. When the Pegulas bought the Sabres they made some staffing decisions rooted in nostalgia rather than objective hockey reasoning. It didn't take long for them to step back and let the hockey people make the decisions. In that way you can hold them accountable for their mistakes instead of your mistakes.

[boater]

Are we really talking about firing people after starting 3-3?

 

THIS!!!! All you faggot immature coaches/players need to remember this: 3-3 ain't great, but it's not's so bad.

 

WTF... if all the 2-5 crowd had their way, we'd be 2-5 for eternity!

 

Somebody help me here.

[K-9]

I wonder if Marrone quit over QB and Whaley was sort of forced to bring in other options because of Rexs stature and the fact the he reports to the Pegulas, not the GM

Marrone quit because he asked for extensions for him and his staff and was denied by Pegula.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Wasn't the great Buddy Nix responsible the Manuel pick? Whaley was not GM then sure he had input. But it's doubtful anyone but the Bills graded Manuel a #16 first round pick. I think the Whaley/ Manuel connection is a tad overblown without any actual OBD comments to prove otherwise.

I personally know of three other teams that had him rated as a late first round pick leading up to the draft; Jaguars, Chargers, Eagles.

 

From the Senior Bowl, through the combine, and especially in personal interviews, Manuel's trajectory steadily rose. Indeed, nobody's rose faster or higher. This idea that nobody had him rated in the first round is revisionist history, Jerry Jones' opinion notwithstanding.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

GO BILLS!!!

[billsfan714]

Neither Rex or Whaley impress me. Whaley took EJ in the first when people had him going later, trading up in the best WR draft in years was moronic. We will be up against the cap next year....go check it out, it aint pretty. Could have holes at LT, Incognito is on a one year deal, hole at LB, Just like years before when we switching to and from a 4/3-3/4 were doing the same thing now with Rexs hybrid scheme that isnt working, team discipline is atrocious, were on pace to break the single season penalty record. 5 of the next 7 on the road, losing record at home. This team's got problems.

Edited October 21, 2015 by billsfan714

[JohnC]

Marrone quit because he asked for extensions for him and his staff and was denied by Pegula.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I personally know of three other teams that had him rated as a late first round pick leading up to the draft; Jaguars, Chargers, Eagles.

 

From the Senior Bowl, through the combine, and especially in personal interviews, Manuel's trajectory steadily rose. Indeed, nobody's rose faster or higher. This idea that nobody had him rated in the first round is revisionist history, Jerry Jones' opinion notwithstanding.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

GO BILLS!!!

It doesn't matter if other teams had him rated as a first round qb. We made the selection, not the other organizations. It is easy to understand why he was rated as a middle to late first rounder: he had physical tools, was a high character guy and impressive work ethic. The Bills knew that his mechanics were off and as you have astutely observed from the beginning his footwork were not very sound.

 

The majority of scouts critically noted that he played in a simplistic offense that didn't stress progressions. Even his HC in college was very circumspect in giving him a high evaluation. The Bills took a risk on a talent with the hope that he could be developed. It's still relatively early in the process but what is apparent is that he is an earnest player with limitations that odds are can not be overcome. In my view he can carve out a good long term prosperous career as a backup. Nothing more.

 

Without a doubt he is the type of player/person one roots for. However, he is not a starter type qb and will never be.

[K-9]

It doesn't matter if other teams had him rated as a first round qb. We made the selection, not the other organizations. It is easy to understand why he was rated as a middle to late first rounder: he had physical tools, was a high character guy and impressive work ethic. The Bills knew that his mechanics were off and as you have astutely observed from the beginning his footwork were not very sound.

 

The majority of scouts critically noted that he played in a simplistic offense that didn't stress progressions. Even his HC in college was very circumspect in giving him a high evaluation. The Bills took a risk on a talent with the hope that he could be developed. It's still relatively early in the process but what is apparent is that he is an earnest player with limitations that odds are can not be overcome. In my view he can carve out a good long term prosperous career as a backup. Nothing more.

 

Without a doubt he is the type of player/person one roots for. However, he is not a starter type qb and will never be.

Given his seeming inability to correct his lower body mechanics, I don't hold out much hope anymore at this stage. It's too ingrained in his muscle memory or something. It's a common flaw among canon-armed QBs; they have always relied solely on arm strength and against inferior competition, that's usually enough.

 

My post wasn't a defense of EJ Manuel as a QB at this point. It was a refutation of an often repeated ludicrous argument put forth for no other reason than to say, "See, no other teams had Manuel rated in the first round, so that means we are idiots." It wasn't true then and it's not true now. His mechanical issues were well known, but it was believed he could correct them if a team could give him the time to do that. And it's worth noting that his grasp of the game blew several teams away during the interview process and that, even more than his physical gifts, is why somebody was going to take a chance on the project.

 

Watch what happens with the first round picks coming out this year.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[JohnC]

Given his seeming inability to correct his lower body mechanics, I don't hold out much hope anymore at this stage. It's too ingrained in his muscle memory or something. It's a common flaw among canon-armed QBs; they have always relied solely on arm strength and against inferior competition, that's usually enough.

 

My post wasn't a defense of EJ Manuel as a QB at this point. It was a refutation of an often repeated ludicrous argument put forth for no other reason than to say, "See, no other teams had Manuel rated in the first round, so that means we are idiots." It wasn't true then and it's not true now. His mechanical issues were well known, but it was believed he could correct them if a team could give him the time to do that. And it's worth noting that his grasp of the game blew several teams away during the interview process and that, even more than his physical gifts, is why somebody was going to take a chance on the project.

 

Watch what happens with the first round picks coming out this year.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I didn't take your response as a defense of EJ.

 

What I remember regarding the EJ draft year was that there were rumors that the Eagles (as you noted} were very interested in him and the Bills feared were considering moving up to draft him.

 

It would be interesting to know if both Nix and Whaley were high on EJ or if Nix was the one who favored the big qb. From what I have read and heard it was Nix who was determined to get a franchise qb prospect out of that draft before he left the scene for good.

 

In the year in which Russel Wilson was drafted Nix was asked on WGR if he considered drafting a qb. The Bills selected the WR speedster. Graham, in the third round. Buddy told the radio host that he was considering a qb in the next round but another team took the qb he was interested in. He wouldn't say which qb he was interested. Speculation was either Kirk Cousins or Russel Wilson. I suspect it was Cousins because Buddy usually favored big over small.

 

Watch what happens with the first round picks coming out this year.

 

If the Bills could maneuver to draft Goff or Cook I would be ecstatic.

Edited October 21, 2015 by JohnC

[BrooklynBills]

 

Lol fair point.

 

I guess my point was shouldn't that be the GM's job?

Many coaches are hired directly by the owners but ours is a weird case for sure. Off the top of my head, Bill Belichek was hired directly by Kraft, Pete Carroll was hired by Paul Allen, Andy Reid in KC, Shanahan in Washington. These guys all have/had some kind of roster control. And in each case a GM was hired after the coach was hired.

 

Also, Bowles in NY, I believe, was hired well before they hired Maccagnan.

 

But I can't think of a situation like the Bills where it seems that Whaley organized and conducted the coaching interviews but Rex was ultimately hired by and answers to Pegula. They made that very clear in the press conference when they introduced Ryan.

 

It also seems like Ryan has ALOT of input on the roster here with the additions of Harvin, Taylor, and Incognito, the Bilal Powell rumors, grabbing IK when he was released by the Jets, and cutting Bryce Brown all having Rex's fingerprints on it. Hell, Revis was rumored to have received a large offer from us.

 

I know both Whaley and Ryan answer to Pegula, but the organizational flow chart certainly seems to be Pegula -> Rex -> Whaley.

 

If you followed the Sabres/Regier mess closely, you'd realize though that organizational clarity/direction is not a trademark of a Pegula run sports team.

[Nihilarian]

Many coaches are hired directly by the owners but ours is a weird case for sure. Off the top of my head, Bill Belichek was hired directly by Kraft, Pete Carroll was hired by Paul Allen, Andy Reid in KC, Shanahan in Washington. These guys all have/had some kind of roster control. And in each case a GM was hired after the coach was hired.

 

Also, Bowles in NY, I believe, was hired well before they hired Maccagnan.

 

But I can't think of a situation like the Bills where it seems that Whaley organized and conducted the coaching interviews but Rex was ultimately hired by and answers to Pegula. They made that very clear in the press conference when they introduced Ryan.

 

It also seems like Ryan has ALOT of input on the roster here with the additions of Harvin, Taylor, and Incognito, the Bilal Powell rumors, grabbing IK when he was released by the Jets, and cutting Bryce Brown all having Rex's fingerprints on it. Hell, Revis was rumored to have received a large offer from us.

 

I know both Whaley and Ryan answer to Pegula, but the organizational flow chart certainly seems to be Pegula -> Rex -> Whaley.

 

If you followed the Sabres/Regier mess closely, you'd realize though that organizational clarity/direction is not a trademark of a Pegula run sports team.

If I'm not mistaken it was the CEO who prodded the new owner to hire the head coach he wanted, and told him he would know who to hire after he spoke with him. Clearly the wrong move for a first time NFL owner, hockey man to pick an NFL HC. (Perhaps it was the fact that Terry Pegula had talked with Bill Polian, and had a plan in place for him to be the football czar. That might have made made him nervous. That plan for Polian all fell apart once Doug Marrone quit though)

 

I can see why Terry Pegula was so enamored with the boisterous, charismatic Rex Ryan. Heck, even the Jets owner Woody Johnson hated to fire the man, and even most of the Jets fans still loved the guy even after four losing seasons. This when Eric Mangini was fired after a 9-7 season.

 

Anyway, the Bills still should still hire that NFL experienced football czar, and allow him to run the football operations side of things. JMO

 

 

On another note Rex Ryan has done a decent job of bringing in talent Tyrod Taylor, Richie Incognito, Percy Harvin to improve the offensive talent. While hiring a decent offensive coordinator in Greg Roman. Ryan's fault so far is his choice for DC, as Donnie Henderson stinks. Sort of mind boggling I know.

 

Whaley's fault is not building the offensive line to be able to run Greg Romans power run scheme, and a lot of his choices for skill players look like they are made of glass. Save TE Charles Clay so far.

[K-9]

Donnie Henderson is not the DC. He is a damned good and well respected DBcoach, though.

 

Dennis Thurman is DC and him and Ryan go back a ways.

 

GO BILLS!!!