Credit where credit is due (Whaley)

[Nihilarian]

 

4 previous seasons before Marrone:

 

6-10

6-10

4-12

6-10

 

Let's go further back:

7-9

7-9

7-9

5-11

 

He turned it around. If you don't give credit for the Pats win, then you should consider we lost to the Chiefs because of a fumble at the end zone.

I suppose you think Mike Mularkey turned the culture around because he went 9-7 one year too, Doug Marrone is right back to where he should be in the NFL, and that's an OL coach as an assistant.

[Rico]

Not that this really matters, but it certainly seemed like the chasm last year clearly had DM on one side, and Russ and Whaley on the other.

More like Brandon & his boy Marrone on one side & Whaley on the other.

[JohnC]

 

 

 

John, you've stated that Marrone did an "honorable" thing by stepping away from a situation he couldn't work in. I call b.s. Has anyone ever proven he truly did walk away on his own? It's been floated that perhaps Pegula suggested he leave and take his 4M to "save face" or he would be relieved of his duties. The lack of "shock" from Pegula, Whaley, Brandon, etc., does speak volumes.

 

You bring up the suggestion that he was forced out and then challenge others to demonstrate that it wasn't true. What an absurd approach to take. If you have some evidence that he didn't leave on his own accord then show it. Requiring someone to disprove a claim that has no basis is a lazy way to make an argument . Or a more challenging way to say it is: put up or be silent. (I didn't want to be too provocative and impolite so I toned down the saying.)

 

 

 

 

Anyway, it's all sort of ridiculous. I think Marrone's an arrogant arse, and the Bills are better today because he is gone. Do I wish for him to fail in his current and future endeavors. Yes, a bit. The Bills are a part of me in a sense, so when Marrone walked away he stuck his big fat middle finger in my face. Buffalo getting to the playoffs and winning a championship with an exciting team that plays great offense will be the best revenge, though.

 

Why anyone would take someone in the pro sport business acting in one's own self-interest as if it is a personal insult makes lilttle sense to me. Is DM arrogant? Who cares if he is? The business is replete with people who are arrogant. The notion of wishing to take revenge on a departed player, coach or front office staffer is beyond my comprehension. For me, cranky Doug is not simply an afterthought, he is forgotten. You are giving his departure too much attention.

[JohnC]

I wasn't calling him a young Erik Williams.

 

That said John, the Bills have fielded MUCH worse at RT.

If you want to be critical of some of his decisions then that is fine. But if you look at last year from an overall perspective his record last year (9-7) reflected its talent level, if not slightly better than its talent level.

 

Whether Pears was a better RT or RG is in the grand scheme of things inconsequential. Pears was a very limited player whose skills were diminishing. Having such a limited offensive lineman on the roster is an indictment to the talent level that Marrone had to work with on the OL.

[ToGoGo]

I suppose you think Mike Mularkey turned the culture around because he went 9-7 one year too, Doug Marrone is right back to where he should be in the NFL, and that's an OL coach as an assistant.

 

You don't like the guy personally. If you can't separate your emotions from Marrone then there's no point in debating with you.

[rstencel]

The statement Roman made regarding Cassel's trade was very ambiguous. It's strange that after David Lee praised Cassel's presence in meetings, the team traded their backup QB (and only experienced veteran) for future a 2017 draft pick. It didn't seem like the coaching staff and front office were in lock step on that one.

 

As for Marrone, reports indicated he (perhaps abruptly) departed the draft room when Buffalo decided to move up in the 2014 draft to take Watkins.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12118625/doug-marrone-did-not-approve-sammy-watkins-draft-day-trade-buffalo-bills

 

Marrone wasn't a good coach and notably didn't hire good offensive assistants. But his GM also didn't identify a QB who was ready to play, and only found an acceptable option late in the 2014 training camp. And I doubt the Bills sign Taylor in free agency if Rex isn't HC because, as we learned in the off-season, Whaley was selling Manuel to prospective HC candidates.

I disagree with the praising of someone by a coach as being sign of them not being on the same page. If your trying to get value for something, wouldn't you want to advertise that in a positive light? Why not have his coach's make positive remarks. Plus, while is nice to have a QB coaching fellow players, but would rather have the higher pick, and more work for the play with more upside myself.

 

Agree that they didn't have a QB that was ready to play, but was that completely Whaley's fault, or was it lack of QB Coach and coaching of players had a large part of reason?

[Nihilarian]

 

You don't like the guy personally. If you can't separate your emotions from Marrone then there's no point in debating with you.

The man earned my dislike for him as the Buffalo Bills head coach with his multiple player mistakes, and clear ineptitude of running an NFL offense. Or if you will, by allowing a complete moron to run his offense for him.

 

I don't dislike the man personally on any level.

[Big Gun]

IMO, DW has done one hell of a job.

 

No GM is going to get all the coach hires/draft picks/ or FA right but he has gotten a real high % of them right and is more than putting together an awesome team.

[ganesh]

 

Don't forget Jackson and Spiller were injured for half the year. It was remarkable that we finished 9-7.

 

Fans didn't like Marrone so they gave all the credit to Schwarz and the defense. True they did great, but for some reason it became "fact" around here that they did well despite Marrone. It's pretty obvious things like that bothered him. Imagine working your ass off, dealing with cancer, and turning around a vicious losing culture and then being hated by the fanbase that only gives some other guy credit. I would leave too. It's downright savvy he took $5M doing something he wanted to do.

 

Fans keep kicking him because they feel abandoned. He left on his terms and that bothers many fans. There's some sort of deep insecurity he touched and that's why everybody is so butt-hurt even though he's the one with $5M in the bank coaching in FL. By the way, the Jaguars look improved. How about that.

These are all very speculative. The only thing that was iron-clad was that Marronne requested an extension for him and his entire staff and it was denied. He treated that as an uncertain future and walked out.

[eball]

You're making a lot of good points, Music.

 

There is no doubt Doug changed our culture.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

 

Imo

 

Personally, I think it was that "don't confuse effort with results" sign hanging in the fieldhouse that did it.

 

Boom. Culture. Changed.

 

Thanks, Doug.

[Kirby Jackson]

I think that Whaley has done a great job since arriving but has been a little lucky. The Bills desperately tried to trade up to draft Mark Barron and couldn't strike a deal. They ended up with Gilmore. I was told (although not as definitively as Barron) that they were going to select Cedric Ogbeuhi this year if he was on the board. He went to Cincy (I think) and they ended up with Darby.

 

Sometimes you are the beneficiary of deals that don't happen but the opposite also holds true. Imagine if The Bills would have struck the deal with Jacksonville in 2004 that they tried hard to get done? The Bills couldn't get the Jags to move back a few spots because the Jags thought that they may miss out on Reggie Williams. The Bills thought that the deal was done and they would have had their indented target -Ben Roethlisberger.

[JohnC]

I think that Whaley has done a great job since arriving but has been a little lucky. The Bills desperately tried to trade up to draft Mark Barron and couldn't strike a deal. They ended up with Gilmore. I was told (although not as definitively as Barron) that they were going to select Cedric Ogbeuhi this year if he was on the board. He went to Cincy (I think) and they ended up with Darby.

 

Sometimes you are the beneficiary of deals that don't happen but the opposite also holds true. Imagine if The Bills would have struck the deal with Jacksonville in 2004 that they tried hard to get done? The Bills couldn't get the Jags to move back a few spots because the Jags thought that they may miss out on Reggie Williams. The Bills thought that the deal was done and they would have had their indented target -Ben Roethlisberger.

The lucky gem of good fortune this year is the signing of Tyrod Taylor. His athleticism has been touted since he came out of college. But his passing talents have by far surpassed my expectations. He has a good arm, is accurate and has an excellent touch on his ball when required. Most of his swings passes have the right amount of pace on it and the throws allow the swing receivers to catch it in stride, a talent that EJ struggles with.

 

Who would have thought that Incognito who was a reclamation project would not only be the best lineman on the unit but one of the best guards in the league? I had qualms regarding bringing in Harvin but so far he is our most productive receiver.

 

TT, Incognito, Harvin, Clay, Miller, Williams, Darby are all contributing players who were added this year and bolstered the roster with an emphasis on upgrading the offense. It wasn't a marginal change. The prior sluggish offense has in rather quick order morphed into an exciting high octane offense. Quite impressive! That caliber of work is worthy of an early extension!

 

 

The Bills couldn't get the Jags to move back a few spots because the Jags thought that they may miss out on Reggie Williams. The Bills thought that the deal was done and they would have had their indented target -Ben Roethlisberger.

 

I say this more as a question than a comment but I thought that Jacksonville wanted to squeeze more for their trade down with us. I was under the impression that from Buffalo's position it hit its limit on what it was willing to give up for the move down to select Roethlisberg?

 

[ToGoGo]

These are all very speculative. The only thing that was iron-clad was that Marronne requested an extension for him and his entire staff and it was denied. He treated that as an uncertain future and walked out.

 

Even that's not iron-clad. It was based on Twitter reports. John Wawrow released a report stating Cassel might start two days before Tyrod was named starter. You can't trust most reports because they all have agendas from front office execs, GMs, coaches, agents, players, etc.

[eball]

 

I always felt it was the lamest argument tactic to accuse somebody defending a certain person to be that person or a member of his family. You're trying to paint a picture that my stance is so pathetic that only a family member can defend it. Why don't you argue the point on it's merits instead of using high school debate tactics. I always raise an eyebrow when somebody starts a reply with a backhanded ad-hominem. Why are you afraid to just counter my point, why feel the need to insult?

 

I never said Marrone was an offensive guru. I said he was brought here to turn the culture around and he did. Whether you like HOW he did it, doesn't really matter to me as much as the end result.

 

A common topic is how he was supposed to be a great OL coach and our Oline sucked. Well, if we ignore personnel, the best I can say is that Marrone was a 1st time head coach who had a lot on his plate. He may not have had the time to coach the Oline himself. He made plenty of mistakes, like the QB injury debacle his 1st year, but he admitted his mistake and they fixed it by bringing in Orton the 2nd year. Hell, that "mistake" was as much on Whaley as Marrone. There's no guarantee he couldn't have fixed whatever was wrong during this offseason if he stayed. I mean, the Jags Oline looked solid vs the Dolphins.

 

Sure some of the fault in the losses falls on Marrone, but I think it's stretching it to somehow find a way to take the blame from Bryce Brown and pin it on Marrone. Every close victory in NFL history was dependent on a player NOT making one more critical mistake at some point in the game.

 

Let's address this whole "changed the culture" argument you seem to be clinging to. It seems Rex has done more to "change the culture" in six months than Marrone did in two years. Marrone's Bills underperformed. He bungled the QB situation, nearly all of his players on offense regressed, and he sat back and relied upon a talented defense to win 15 games in two years -- one of those against a lame duck opponent in W17. He put an injured rookie WR into a meaningless preseason game and got him further dinged up. He made in-game decisions that showed a complete lack of faith in his team; he played scared.

 

Another news flash -- when Bryce Brown fumbled the ball against KC the Bills were ahead. I don't remember the last time a player who failed to make a critical play with his team leading was then held responsible for a loss when there was more than a quarter to play.

 

Sure, there's no "guarantee" he couldn't have had success with the Bills this season if he was still here, but we wouldn't have Greg Roman and we probably wouldn't have Tyrod, Incognito, or Harvin either. Marrone was getting more and more agitated with the press and his overall demeanor reflected the fact that he wasn't dealing with the stress of leading this team very well. There is more evidence to support the notion he would have presided over another middling effort this season, than suggesting the Bills would have turned the corner.

 

Is that direct enough for ya?

[3rdand12]

The man earned my dislike for him as the Buffalo Bills head coach with his multiple player mistakes, and clear ineptitude of running an NFL offense. Or if you will, by allowing a complete moron to run his offense for him.

 

I don't dislike the man personally on any level.

something very much like this, is my opinion.

 

 

any one who moves Pears to guard and sits Urbik has no darned clue.

Edited October 3, 2015 by 3rdand12

[BADOLBILZ]

Looking good as a GM is about two things:

 

 

1) Getting good QB play

 

2) Drafting well

 

The first item it would appear he can thank Rex Ryan for.

 

With all due respect to Whaley.....the biggest difference between he and the previous GM's is a better base of talent to start with and then NOT making one bad decision after another.

 

As Bill Belichick has said....in order to stay bad in the NFL you have to make bad decisions almost constantly.

 

And against all odds that is exactly what the Ralph Wilson-constrained Bills have done for the past 15 years.

 

What we are seeing now is basically a modern version of roster building that happened to the Bills in the late 80's.

 

Years of losing and drafting high....and getting talent with those picks....built a talented base. The explosion of the USFL was basically a very timely free agent windfall for that team.

 

This current team has been stacking talent and drafting early for much longer than they should have and then enter the Pegula's and the commitment to winning...which brought them coaches that would never have come here to work for Ralph......and a subsequent free agency windfall....and you have the most talented team they've had since early in their SB runs.

 

That's not to say they will necessarily take advantage of that talent and it's much harder to keep the talent level that high in the NFL but they have SB winner talent right now.

 

Whaley deserves a ton of credit for his drafting. The free agent windfall...from the great Tyrod pickup to the downside of trading for and over paying a mileage depleted Shady.....is probably mostly on Rex and Roman but DW deserves credit for getting out of the way if nothing else.....and that counts too.

[ToGoGo]

 

Let's address this whole "changed the culture" argument you seem to be clinging to.

 

 

"Clinging to". You've now started off two different replies with something that makes me roll my eyes.

 

 

 

It seems Rex has done more to "change the culture" in six months than Marrone did in two years.

 

It's true Rex has changed the culture. Positive charisma is the most powerful drug on the planet. However, just because Rex has changed it quicker (with an improved roster) does not automatically discount Marrone from changing it too.

 

"X being successful does not make Y a failure."

 

 

 

Marrone's Bills underperformed. He bungled the QB situation, nearly all of his players on offense regressed, and he sat back and relied upon a talented defense to win 15 games in two years -- one of those against a lame duck opponent in W17. He put an injured rookie WR into a meaningless preseason game and got him further dinged up. He made in-game decisions that showed a complete lack of faith in his team; he played scared.

 

I'd argue that specific positions on offense underperformed, but the team overperformed in general.

 

Relying on the defense, bungling in-game decisions, and other little things have nothing to do with my definition of changing the culture. "By any means necessary" is a part of my definition. "Only in specific ways" seems to be part of yours.

 

I'm talking in general, but you keep "clinging" to specifics.

 

 

 

Another news flash -- when Bryce Brown fumbled the ball against KC the Bills were ahead. I don't remember the last time a player who failed to make a critical play with his team leading was then held responsible for a loss when there was more than a quarter to play.

 

You keep attempting to take a win away from Marrone and paint him as 8-8 in order to help your stance. The truth is he's 9-7. Our opinions on the Patriots and Chiefs games don't really matter. Another truth is that he had the first winning season in nearly 10 years.

 

 

 

Sure, there's no "guarantee" he couldn't have had success with the Bills this season if he was still here, but we wouldn't have Greg Roman and we probably wouldn't have Tyrod, Incognito, or Harvin either.

 

Of course we wouldn't have Roman and maybe Tyrod or Harvin. And the offense may not be as exciting. But my point is that I think Marrone would have found a way to improve our offense with some of those better players (like KW, McCoy, Miller). I think we would still be 2-1 right now with Marrone and Schwartz, but perhaps not as fun to watch.

 

 

 

Marrone was getting more and more agitated with the press and his overall demeanor reflected the fact that he wasn't dealing with the stress of leading this team very well. There is more evidence to support the notion he would have presided over another middling effort this season, than suggesting the Bills would have turned the corner.

 

He had a winning season despite that stress. With an improved roster and the same stress, I don't see why we would have been a worse team.

 

If you're arguing that the stress would have snowballed and he would have had a breakdown that ruined the season, well that's a unique viewpoint I haven't heard yet. It's interesting and something I can consider.

[Dan]

"Clinging to". You've now started off two different replies with something that makes me roll my eyes.

 

It's true Rex has changed the culture. Positive charisma is the most powerful drug on the planet. However, just because Rex has changed it quicker (with an improved roster) does not automatically discount Marrone from changing it too.

 

"X being successful does not make Y a failure."

 

I'd argue that specific positions on offense underperformed, but the team overperformed in general.

 

Relying on the defense, bungling in-game decisions, and other little things have nothing to do with my definition of changing the culture. "By any means necessary" is a part of my definition. "Only in specific ways" seems to be part of yours.

 

I'm talking in general, but you keep "clinging" to specifics.

 

You keep attempting to take a win away from Marrone and paint him as 8-8 in order to help your stance. The truth is he's 9-7. Our opinions on the Patriots and Chiefs games don't really matter. Another truth is that he had the first winning season in nearly 10 years.

 

Of course we wouldn't have Roman and maybe Tyrod or Harvin. And the offense may not be as exciting. But my point is that I think Marrone would have found a way to improve our offense with some of those better players (like KW, McCoy, Miller). I think we would still be 2-1 right now with Marrone and Schwartz, but perhaps not as fun to watch.

 

He had a winning season despite that stress. With an improved roster and the same stress, I don't see why we would have been a worse team.

 

If you're arguing that the stress would have snowballed and he would have had a breakdown that ruined the season, well that's a unique viewpoint I haven't heard yet. It's interesting and something I can consider.

 

All you have to consider when discussing Marrone's legacy is his very own quote... "Don't confuse effort with results."

 

A winning ecord of 9-7 does not, in itself, constitute changing the culture of this team. There was only 1 game last year that I think anyone considered we absolutely would win. The Raiders game... .and we lost.

 

If Marrone and Hacket were still coaching this team, I don't think anyone would truly believe this team was a winner. We would all hope. We would pray. But in the end, that's what we'd be left with. ..hope and prayers. And, that, is not winning culture.

[Manther]

IMO, DW has done one hell of a job.

 

No GM is going to get all the coach hires/draft picks/ or FA right but he has gotten a real high % of them right and is more than putting together an awesome team.

Agreed!

[ScrewyLouie]

He turned Kelvin Sheppard into Jerry F$&king Hughes and Kneeko Alonso into Shady.

 

I'm ok with the job he's done.

 

Did you really mean to say he turned Kneeko Alonso into a Shady Hamstring?

[ScrewyLouie]

Looking good as a GM is about two things:

 

 

1) Getting good QB play

 

2) Drafting well

 

The first item it would appear he can thank Rex Ryan for.

 

With all due respect to Whaley.....the biggest difference between he and the previous GM's is a better base of talent to start with and then NOT making one bad decision after another.

 

As Bill Belichick has said....in order to stay bad in the NFL you have to make bad decisions almost constantly.

 

And against all odds that is exactly what the Ralph Wilson-constrained Bills have done for the past 15 years.

 

What we are seeing now is basically a modern version of roster building that happened to the Bills in the late 80's.

 

Years of losing and drafting high....and getting talent with those picks....built a talented base. The explosion of the USFL was basically a very timely free agent windfall for that team.

 

This current team has been stacking talent and drafting early for much longer than they should have and then enter the Pegula's and the commitment to winning...which brought them coaches that would never have come here to work for Ralph......and a subsequent free agency windfall....and you have the most talented team they've had since early in their SB runs.

 

That's not to say they will necessarily take advantage of that talent and it's much harder to keep the talent level that high in the NFL but they have SB winner talent right now.

 

Whaley deserves a ton of credit for his drafting. The free agent windfall...from the great Tyrod pickup to the downside of trading for and over paying a mileage depleted Shady.....is probably mostly on Rex and Roman but DW deserves credit for getting out of the way if nothing else.....and that counts too.

I agree. Great post.

[machine gun kelly]

 

Let's address this whole "changed the culture" argument you seem to be clinging to. It seems Rex has done more to "change the culture" in six months than Marrone did in two years. Marrone's Bills underperformed. He bungled the QB situation, nearly all of his players on offense regressed, and he sat back and relied upon a talented defense to win 15 games in two years -- one of those against a lame duck opponent in W17. He put an injured rookie WR into a meaningless preseason game and got him further dinged up. He made in-game decisions that showed a complete lack of faith in his team; he played scared.

 

Another news flash -- when Bryce Brown fumbled the ball against KC the Bills were ahead. I don't remember the last time a player who failed to make a critical play with his team leading was then held responsible for a loss when there was more than a quarter to play.

 

Sure, there's no "guarantee" he couldn't have had success with the Bills this season if he was still here, but we wouldn't have Greg Roman and we probably wouldn't have Tyrod, Incognito, or Harvin either. Marrone was getting more and more agitated with the press and his overall demeanor reflected the fact that he wasn't dealing with the stress of leading this team very well. There is more evidence to support the notion he would have presided over another middling effort this season, than suggesting the Bills would have turned the corner.

 

Is that direct enough for ya?

 

Well said EBall. I would add the rebuild started with Nix. A lot of people on this board didn't like Nix, but that was the start of slow improvements in talent each year, and Whaley escalated the process. The new owners investment in the team is evident, and the results could be a 6-1 start. The Bengals will be the toughest next test. If our players keep in mind the Patriots mess, they can remain motivated and torch the Giants, Titans (Mariotta will be utterly confused by halftime), and a real challenge in playing Cincy. The good news is we have homefield advantage in this game.

[Solomon Grundy]

That was an egregious error of judgment that backfired 100% and clearly hurt the team, something no other coach would have done. A tall, slow, non-athletic RT playing OG is preposterous.

Don't forget he kept a capable guard(Urbik) sitting on the bench

[eball]

 

"Clinging to". You've now started off two different replies with something that makes me roll my eyes.

 

 

 

It's true Rex has changed the culture. Positive charisma is the most powerful drug on the planet. However, just because Rex has changed it quicker (with an improved roster) does not automatically discount Marrone from changing it too.

 

"X being successful does not make Y a failure."

 

 

I'd argue that specific positions on offense underperformed, but the team overperformed in general.

 

Relying on the defense, bungling in-game decisions, and other little things have nothing to do with my definition of changing the culture. "By any means necessary" is a part of my definition. "Only in specific ways" seems to be part of yours.

 

I'm talking in general, but you keep "clinging" to specifics.

 

 

You keep attempting to take a win away from Marrone and paint him as 8-8 in order to help your stance. The truth is he's 9-7. Our opinions on the Patriots and Chiefs games don't really matter. Another truth is that he had the first winning season in nearly 10 years.

 

 

Of course we wouldn't have Roman and maybe Tyrod or Harvin. And the offense may not be as exciting. But my point is that I think Marrone would have found a way to improve our offense with some of those better players (like KW, McCoy, Miller). I think we would still be 2-1 right now with Marrone and Schwartz, but perhaps not as fun to watch.

 

 

He had a winning season despite that stress. With an improved roster and the same stress, I don't see why we would have been a worse team.

 

If you're arguing that the stress would have snowballed and he would have had a breakdown that ruined the season, well that's a unique viewpoint I haven't heard yet. It's interesting and something I can consider.

 

It is clear we view the situation differently. I wanted to like Marrone and was satisfied with what he did in his first year on the job; the Bills were competitive and injuries at the QB position limited what the team could do. When the whispers started coming out in training camp last season about "Saint Doug" and whatnot, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Then I saw firsthand how, in my opinion, he "lost" the team.

 

As I think about this more, I've come to the conclusion that you are right in one respect. Marrone did change the culture at OBD -- it became a culture of misery.