Is it time for Plan Z at QB

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

[KD in CA]

What's your suggestion? And that's such a lazy post by the way. No one has ever suggested that old, slow, mediocre QB's are a long term solution. But do you want to make the playoffs this season? I do. And Matt Cassel is probably going to be a better "ticket" than EJ Manuel right now.

I said the same thing. I totally agree that if one of these clowns doesn't grab the proverbial bull by the proverbial horns then a trade would not be out of the question. And again, that would've sounded crazy one year ago but with the Pegulas, it wouldn't surprise me one bit. That being said, I think if Matt Cassel looks like Matt Cassel, I think they'll take that, at least for this year.

 

Actually someone in this thread suggested signing Orton to a 3 year, $25MM deal. Of course, my sarcasm meter could be off -- it's hard to be sure these days, especially in QB threads.

[Turbosrrgood]

An EJ sucks thread. Something new! I'm sure there will be something to talk about that wasn't discussed in the previous 800 EJ threads.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Turbosrrgood

[Best Player Available]

Regarding EJ, I still see the frozen look of WTF on Polians face when Berman asked him would you have taken him at 16? moments after they drafted EJ.

 

I know Whaley owns part of this but i still smell Nix all over what will eventually be another wasted first round pick.

No light is ever going to come on. he is a great kid. That is nice. What he is not nor ever will be is a starting NFL

Quarterback. Ask any serious FSU fans. yet, for some the excuses continue. marrone? he is gone. Day 3 of camp? He has had accuracy problems everywhere. So Lets blame David Lee then. Anyone but EJ.

because as expected this project is not fixable.

 

After this season try to keep as much of the band together as possible, then next year throw everything at the best prospect they can trade up for in the draft. This season should be a good one. The defense will win some games, seriously can anyone envision EJ making a deep playoff run? Put Cassell in hope for the best. 11-5 is a possability even with Cassell.

[DDD]

The EJ dreamers are starting to feel like Marty McFly when that dude cuts into dance with Lorraine at the Enchantment Under the Sea dance and his family starts disappearing from the picture on his fretboard and then he looks and his own hand starts disappearing.

 

Not sure why 3-4 practices are deterring you now. You refused to listen when the rest of us were telling you that he sucked throughout every practice all last season and you continued to dismiss that and instead allude only to his 14 games. So if you were to follow your own narrative, these practices shouldn't really count at all.

 

I think Cassel will be fine to get us to 10-6. I think a trade is our only hope if we want to think bigger. And with this new ownership, I wouldn't put anything past them.

How about we get Biff's sports almanac so we know what QB to draft next year...or will that change the future???

[Alphadawg7]

This same EJ movie has been played out the last 2 years. Time is up, time to move on.

 

No offense, but thats a pretty silly statement that lacks logic and reasoning about what a mess the last 2 years were in regards to the offensive coaching of this team. That completely disregards the journey he has had to endure the last 2 years, none of which was the plan in the first place.

 

The kid has had more success than people want to give him credit for. 3 times he led a 4th Qtr comeback win in 14 games. He was rookie of the week twice. He missed part of training camp and was a raw prospect forced to start due to a fragile vet retiring for tripping on a mat. He got hurt twice and missed more critical time.

 

Marrone and company handled him horribly and never wanted him to start in the first place. They wanted a Vet and got one late in camp...as soon as they felt Orton was ready they went with him. They also horribly mismanaged him, put so many restrictions on him and took him out of his natural play style. Our offense was one of the worst managed I have ever seen the last 2 years. And all of this with a kid who was Raw coming out of college and needed time to learn and develop in the first place before getting out there and playing.

 

EJ may or may not win the job...hell he may or may not be on the roster come week 1, this is his shot to prove he belongs and he is a huge question mark still. But this year is NOT the same movie. Thats like going from a low budget, crappy, indy film to feature films with some of hollywoods best production crew with our staff this year.

[8-8 Forever?]

testaverde....give warner a call

I would put Kurt Warner on the field before anyone we have now. We would have had to have him 6 months ago, though. So much for that idea. the way the NFL works with limited practice time, etc., you can't really drop a guy in in the middle of camp and have it work. I really think we are stuck with what we have for this year. Maybe Simms can play... Phil that is

Edited August 3, 2015 by 8and8Forever

[Iraq Vet]

Day 4 of training Camp and all hope is lost? Come on guys..... It is day 4!! Lets at least get to preseason game 1 before we go nuts here.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

[This team is not like my Pirates, who refuse to spend on backup players and act shocked when AJ gets injured, then brings in JA Happ(less). (sorry, still really pissed off about that)].

 

This team is not like the Pirates, who got players to fill in the needed gaps in the roster and did it extremely well. Specifically, King Kang is killing is as a bonafide SS for the first time in a LONG time. The Pirates have also made the playoffs in consecutive seasons, unlike the Bills. I don't know where you missed the Soria signing and the other signings, but you should check them out.

 

[Big Gun]

 

No offense, but thats a pretty silly statement that lacks logic and reasoning about what a mess the last 2 years were in regards to the offensive coaching of this team. That completely disregards the journey he has had to endure the last 2 years, none of which was the plan in the first place.

 

The kid has had more success than people want to give him credit for. 3 times he led a 4th Qtr comeback win in 14 games. He was rookie of the week twice. He missed part of training camp and was a raw prospect forced to start due to a fragile vet retiring for tripping on a mat. He got hurt twice and missed more critical time.

 

Marrone and company handled him horribly and never wanted him to start in the first place. They wanted a Vet and got one late in camp...as soon as they felt Orton was ready they went with him. They also horribly mismanaged him, put so many restrictions on him and took him out of his natural play style. Our offense was one of the worst managed I have ever seen the last 2 years. And all of this with a kid who was Raw coming out of college and needed time to learn and develop in the first place before getting out there and playing.

 

EJ may or may not win the job...hell he may or may not be on the roster come week 1, this is his shot to prove he belongs and he is a huge question mark still. But this year is NOT the same movie. Thats like going from a low budget, crappy, indy film to feature films with some of hollywoods best production crew with our staff this year.

Yes it is the same lame tired EJ excuse fest that you and a few others keep trying to hang your hat on. EJ stinks and that was evident 2 years ago. Whatever though, soon he will be a distant memory like so many others who had some prototypical tools yet couldn't put it all together.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

 

No offense, but thats a pretty silly statement that lacks logic and reasoning about what a mess the last 2 years were in regards to the offensive coaching of this team. That completely disregards the journey he has had to endure the last 2 years, none of which was the plan in the first place.

 

The kid has had more success than people want to give him credit for. 3 times he led a 4th Qtr comeback win in 14 games. He was rookie of the week twice. He missed part of training camp and was a raw prospect forced to start due to a fragile vet retiring for tripping on a mat. He got hurt twice and missed more critical time.

 

Marrone and company handled him horribly and never wanted him to start in the first place. They wanted a Vet and got one late in camp...as soon as they felt Orton was ready they went with him. They also horribly mismanaged him, put so many restrictions on him and took him out of his natural play style. Our offense was one of the worst managed I have ever seen the last 2 years. And all of this with a kid who was Raw coming out of college and needed time to learn and develop in the first place before getting out there and playing.

 

EJ may or may not win the job...hell he may or may not be on the roster come week 1, this is his shot to prove he belongs and he is a huge question mark still. But this year is NOT the same movie. Thats like going from a low budget, crappy, indy film to feature films with some of hollywoods best production crew with our staff this year.

 

EJ is terrible... the new coaches now know it, the GM knows it, the fans MOSTLY know it, so whatever "movie" he's in, all the "camera" time in the world will still make his a below average "actor" with vastly improved "producers". The EJ Experiment is OVER...

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

EJ is terrible... the new coaches now know it, the GM knows it, the fans MOSTLY know it, so whatever "movie" he's in, all the "camera" time in the world will still make his a below average "actor" with vastly improved "producers". The EJ Experiment is OVER...

 

I'd argue it never BEGAN thanks to Marrone.

[Alphadawg7]

Yes it is the same lame tired EJ excuse fest that you and a few others keep trying to hang your hat on. EJ stinks and that was evident 2 years ago. Whatever though, soon he will be a distant memory like so many others who had some prototypical tools yet couldn't put it all together.

 

Being a realist about the real situation, the real performance, and real opportunities today is not an excuse fest. When did discussing factual events become excuses in this world? I don't know if this kid is going to make it...i hope he does because we need someone to. But at the end of the day, a raw prospect at the most difficult position in all of team sports went through a lot in his first 2 years that would make it hard for any prospect to succeed, especially one who needed time to develop.

 

But saying its the same movie is just ridiculous to me. He may or may not make it, he may or may not even make this team...but his opportunity this year is a very different story and we will see if this kid can put it together or not to make this team or win the job.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

 

I'd argue it never BEGAN thanks to Marrone.

 

Blaming Marrone for everything is short-sighted and completely ignores the fact EJ was a project QB from the beginning we drafted too high.,

[Ludwig van]

I think Nick Foles in a Bills uniform could have worked..

 

Next year there will be two huge moves for Qb through FA and the draft.

 

I'm pulling for Tyrod at this point.

[Big Gun]

 

Being a realist about the real situation, the real performance, and real opportunities today is not an excuse fest. When did discussing factual events become excuses in this world? I don't know if this kid is going to make it...i hope he does because we need someone to. But at the end of the day, a raw prospect at the most difficult position in all of team sports went through a lot in his first 2 years that would make it hard for any prospect to succeed, especially one who needed time to develop.

 

But saying its the same movie is just ridiculous to me. He may or may not make it, he may or may not even make this team...but his opportunity this year is a very different story and we will see if this kid can put it together or not to make this team or win the job.

So ignoring all of EJs bad moments and only focusing on his good moments because you want him to succeed makes you a realist. Got it!

[bisonbrigade]

If you trade draft picks from next year the Bills would be unable to trade up and actually get a decent QB in the draft next year. The best you can do is play Cassell and hope for the best.

[Alphadawg7]

So ignoring all of EJs bad moments and only focusing on his good moments because you want him to succeed makes you a realist. Got it!

 

Except none of those words have come out of mouth...so theres that pesky fact. I said I understand the last 2 years, good and bad, and I have not closed the door on him. I mean do you even read posts before you reply? I said MULTIPLE times now that he mar or may not even make the team and this his opportunity to earn his spot.

 

I want him to succeed, just like I want Taylor or Cassel too as well...because I want someone to succeed. But unlike the bashers who have bashed him since draft night, I don't make absolute decisions until I see what they can do when put into position and given the opportunity to succeed. The last coaching staff did him no favors...this one is light years better at their approach and its his make or break moment.

 

PS: The only one ignoring moments is you...you ignore the positives and FALSELY paint the negatives as if it was all negative. I acknowledge both and the circumstances and understand we have an incomplete answer right now.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Alphadawg7

[1billsfan]

If you trade draft picks from next year the Bills would be unable to trade up and actually get a decent QB in the draft next year. The best you can do is play Cassell and hope for the best.

 

I don't see the Bills looking to the 2016 draft to fill the QB position. The reason is because I think the "window" of opportunity for this bunch is about 3 years. I think the Bills will try to find a veteran QB through a trade or FA who's had success but is on the outs either because of age, being in a "bad" situation or their current team just wants to move on. The possible QB list I look at are (in no particular order) Brees, Bradford, Foles, P. Manning, RGIII, Kaepernick, Mettenberg, Glennon, Rivers, E. Manning or Cutler. A lot won't end up being available, but I think there will be a better FA/Trade situation out there for the Bills next year that wasn't there this year. There are a lot of bad big salary cap hit QB contracts out there for a decent QB not to shake loose in the 2016 offseason.

[Alphadawg7]

 

I don't see the Bills looking to the 2016 draft to fill the QB position. The reason is because I think the "window" of opportunity for this bunch is about 3 years. I think the Bills will try to find a veteran QB through a trade or FA who's had success but is on the outs either because of age, being in a "bad" situation or their current team just wants to move on. The possible QB list I look at are (in no particular order) Brees, Bradford, Foles, P. Manning, RGIII, Kaepernick, Mettenberg, Glennon, Rivers, E. Manning or Cutler. A lot won't end up being available, but I think there will be a better FA/Trade situation out there for the Bills next year that wasn't there this year. There are a lot of bad big salary cap hit QB contracts out there for a decent QB not to shake loose in the 2016 offseason.

 

I agree...if one of the 3 don't work out this year, I think the first choice will be find a guy on the market if possible. Grooming a young QB is rarely a quick process, Wilson was the exception not the norm. They will want to find the quickest way to win now given this roster is built to win. I could see a big trade or FA approach to this position as an aggressive avenue for them next year if we can't stabilize this year.

[FireChan]

 

I don't see the Bills looking to the 2016 draft to fill the QB position. The reason is because I think the "window" of opportunity for this bunch is about 3 years. I think the Bills will try to find a veteran QB through a trade or FA who's had success but is on the outs either because of age, being in a "bad" situation or their current team just wants to move on. The possible QB list I look at are (in no particular order) Brees, Bradford, Foles, P. Manning, RGIII, Kaepernick, Mettenberg, Glennon, Rivers, E. Manning or Cutler. A lot won't end up being available, but I think there will be a better FA/Trade situation out there for the Bills next year that wasn't there this year. There are a lot of bad big salary cap hit QB contracts out there for a decent QB not to shake loose in the 2016 offseason.

Cutty!

[Best Player Available]

If Chad Kelly makes it through this season at Ole Miss (?) I think he is draft eligible.....................

[Smiley Dear]

Orton? Did anyone watch any games in the 2nd half of the season last year? He was awful. They should call Vick and Locker and anyone else they can think of

[HT02]

Yes, slam that damn panic button all three of these guys are awful.

 

Glennon or Meckenberger would be my choice. I still can't believe Whaley hasn't drafted even one more QB in the last 2 years.

Orton? Did anyone watch any games in the 2nd half of the season last year? He was awful. They should call Vick and Locker and anyone else they can think of

I agree, I have seen enough of Orton

[metzelaars_lives]

 

No offense, but thats a pretty silly statement that lacks logic and reasoning about what a mess the last 2 years were in regards to the offensive coaching of this team. That completely disregards the journey he has had to endure the last 2 years, none of which was the plan in the first place.

 

The kid has had more success than people want to give him credit for. 3 times he led a 4th Qtr comeback win in 14 games. He was rookie of the week twice. He missed part of training camp and was a raw prospect forced to start due to a fragile vet retiring for tripping on a mat. He got hurt twice and missed more critical time.

 

Marrone and company handled him horribly and never wanted him to start in the first place. They wanted a Vet and got one late in camp...as soon as they felt Orton was ready they went with him. They also horribly mismanaged him, put so many restrictions on him and took him out of his natural play style. Our offense was one of the worst managed I have ever seen the last 2 years. And all of this with a kid who was Raw coming out of college and needed time to learn and develop in the first place before getting out there and playing.

 

EJ may or may not win the job...hell he may or may not be on the roster come week 1, this is his shot to prove he belongs and he is a huge question mark still. But this year is NOT the same movie. Thats like going from a low budget, crappy, indy film to feature films with some of hollywoods best production crew with our staff this year.

2 kinda sucks.

[PromoTheRobot]

Vick? Vick? You know Rex has seen Mike Vick play up close and personal. You might have forgotten but he hasn't

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfRBg1w-zLU

 

You want a Plan Z QB? Here are you choices as of right now:

 

> Jason Campbell
> Pat Devlin

> Matt Flynn

> Tarvaris Jackson

> Ryan Lindley
> Luke McCown

 

Now tell me these guys might be better.

Edited August 3, 2015 by PromoTheRobot

[metzelaars_lives]

 

I'd argue it never BEGAN thanks to Marrone.

So is this an indication that people are still going to use the Marrone excuse if EJ fails again this offseason/preseason.

 

And by the way, let it be stated that I am fully in the "it's only three practices" camp. I just found it amusing that the dreamers are already starting to backpeddle when his play so far is not a surprise to 85% of Bills fans.

[Big Turk]

How good does our QB have to be when our D has held opposing QBs to an average of a 73-74 QB rating over the past 3 years?

[eball]

So is this an indication that people are still going to use the Marrone excuse if EJ fails again this offseason/preseason.

 

And by the way, let it be stated that I am fully in the "it's only three practices" camp. I just found it amusing that the dreamers are already starting to backpeddle when his play so far is not a surprise to 85% of Bills fans.

 

Why did you spend an ungodly amount of time in another thread proclaiming that you're not about making the EJ debate personal (and are actually rooting for him), yet every chance you get you throw one of these in for good measure?

[metzelaars_lives]

 

Why did you spend an ungodly amount of time in another thread proclaiming that you're not about making the EJ debate personal (and are actually rooting for him), yet every chance you get you throw one of these in for good measure?

I haven't said one word about EJ looking bad so far. I only commented on his, we'll call them "believers" starting to backpeddle a bit after three practices. My opinion on the guy hasn't changed at all. I still hope he emerges and wins the job. It would be better for the franchise if he did.

[eball]

I haven't said one word about EJ looking bad so far. I only commented on his, we'll call them "believers" starting to backpeddle a bit after three practices. My opinion on the guy hasn't changed at all. I still hope he emerges and wins the job. It would be better for the franchise if he did.

 

Just to clarify, they're not "dreamers" or "believers" -- they're called Bills fans who are rooting for a QB to succeed.

 

If we compare those who root for EJ with those who have already written him off, the latter are far more entrenched and unwilling to accept another perspective than the former.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

We should have grabbed Hoyer.

One patriot reject at a time please?

So is this an indication that people are still going to use the Marrone excuse if EJ fails again this offseason/preseason.

 

And by the way, let it be stated that I am fully in the "it's only three practices" camp. I just found it amusing that the dreamers are already starting to backpeddle when his play so far is not a surprise to 85% of Bills fans.

85%? Are you 100% sure about that?

 

We know we know. He probably still sucks and will continuing sucking.... Just wish he'd stop sucking.

[FireChan]

 

Just to clarify, they're not "dreamers" or "believers" -- they're called Bills fans who are rooting for a QB to succeed.

 

If we compare those who root for EJ with those who have already written him off, the latter are far more entrenched and unwilling to accept another perspective than the former.

I'd call them eternal optimists (for one guy).

[NastyNateSoldiers]

What's your suggestion? And that's such a lazy post by the way. No one has ever suggested that old, slow, mediocre QB's are a long term solution. But do you want to make the playoffs this season? I do. And Matt Cassel is probably going to be a better "ticket" than EJ Manuel right now.

 

I said the same thing. I totally agree that if one of these clowns doesn't grab the proverbial bull by the proverbial horns then a trade would not be out of the question. And again, that would've sounded crazy one year ago but with the Pegulas, it wouldn't surprise me one bit. That being said, I think if Matt Cassel looks like Matt Cassel, I think they'll take that, at least for this year.

 

Matt Cassel playing 16 gms is just as likely as EJ figuring it out and reversing his inaccurate ways. Cassel has been injured 3 straight yrs look for this streak to continue. That's why it's imperative to make a move ASAP bringing in a guy like Cousins, M Berger or Glennon would raise the competition level and add depth at the same time. We don't want another Thad Lewis situation.

[Luxy312]

Vick? Vick? You know Rex has seen Mike Vick play up close and personal. You might have forgotten but he hasn't

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfRBg1w-zLU

 

You want a Plan Z QB? Here are you choices as of right now:

 

> Jason Campbell

> Pat Devlin

> Matt Flynn

> Tarvaris Jackson

> Ryan Lindley

> Luke McCown

 

Now tell me these guys might be better.

 

None of the above. They're not better and more importantly, none of them would be ready for the start of the season. Right now, the best case scenario is that we start to see improvement and a clear starter emerges from the guys they have already. Worst case scenario is that that doesn't happen and we're looking to the draft next year. I'm so tired of the Bills taking other teams loser/cast offs and thinking that they have a guy that will put them in the playoffs. Complete waste of time.

[metzelaars_lives]

Matt Cassel playing 16 gms is just as likely as EJ figuring it out and reversing his inaccurate ways. Cassel has been injured 3 straight yrs look for this streak to continue. That's why it's imperative to make a move ASAP bringing in a guy like Cousins, M Berger or Glennon would raise the competition level and add depth at the same time. We don't want another Thad Lewis situation.

I'd give it another week and a preseason game but like I've said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they make a move.

[qwksilver]

 

Just to clarify, they're not "dreamers" or "believers" -- they're called Bills fans who are rooting for a QB to succeed.

 

If we compare those who root for EJ with those who have already written him off, the latter are far more entrenched and unwilling to accept another perspective than the former.

Its always better to be right, that way they can roll out the "I told you so's".

[metzelaars_lives]

 

Just to clarify, they're not "dreamers" or "believers" -- they're called Bills fans who are rooting for a QB to succeed.

 

If we compare those who root for EJ with those who have already written him off, the latter are far more entrenched and unwilling to accept another perspective than the former.

I am a Bills fan who is rooting for him to succeed and I haven't written him off. Are you willing to accept the perspective that it's less than likely that he succeeds? That seems to be the only perspective in this debate that some people are unwilling to accept.

[eball]

I am a Bills fan who is rooting for him to succeed and I haven't written him off. Are you willing to accept the perspective that it's less than likely that he succeeds? That seems to be the only perspective in this debate that some people are unwilling to accept.

 

If that's what you are then you should have no reason to belittle others as "dreamers" or "believers." As for your other question, it's irrelevant.

[FireChan]

 

If that's what you are then you should have no reason to belittle others as "dreamers" or "believers." As for your other question, it's irrelevant.

Again, for one guy.