Not all In on Miller and Kouandjio Starting .. Whaley's Wart

[PromoTheRobot]

It's very sad, but this is absolutely on the money (until proven otherwise).

I think we have a new nominee for the TBD-ism hall of fame.

[Beerball]

I think we have a new nominee for the TBD-ism hall of fame.

To paraphrase...I guarantee it until I don't.

[NewEra]

While I don't agree with the OP.....I too, am worried about the OL. Given our QB situation (which I believe will be similar to the last 16 years), our OL will have to create holes while the opposing D is stacking the box to stop the run. I believe miller and Ritchie will be upgrades, but are the good enough to mask our deficiencies at QB and blow open holes vs 8 in the box? Roman has his work cut out for him IMO.

[TPS]

I really hope the PPG goes down. Last time Rex's defense had a PPG under 20 was 2010. That was also the last time he had a good offense.

That was what had me questioning his D relative to Schwartz's in another thread, the ppg for his D, but as I dug deeper, it did seem to coincide with how atrocious their O was, with the exception of 1 year.

The real question mark for the O-line is the right side. They are pretty solid at LT, LG, and C. We'll have to wait and see what what the young dudes bring.

[Kirby Jackson]

While I don't agree with the OP.....I too, am worried about the OL. Given our QB situation (which I believe will be similar to the last 16 years), our OL will have to create holes while the opposing D is stacking the box to stop the run. I believe miller and Ritchie will be upgrades, but are the good enough to mask our deficiencies at QB and blow open holes vs 8 in the box? Roman has his work cut out for him IMO.

I think that we are all concerned about the offensive line. You just lose credibility when you say something like "Miller is raw." As a prospect he is the exact opposite of that. He may not have massive upside but he has no chance of busting. He is a high IQ, polished football player. He is a high floor guy and that is why they took him. They could not afford to roll the dice on a boom or bust guy.

 

It is kind of like saying "I am worried about Tyrod Taylor as the QB because I do not think that he is quick enough to play the position." No one knows what kind of play Tyrod will provide (it is an example not assuming that he starts) but we all agree that quickness will not be his issue.

 

[GG]

That was what had me questioning his D relative to Schwartz's in another thread, the ppg for his D, but as I dug deeper, it did seem to coincide with how atrocious their O was, with the exception of 1 year.

The real question mark for the O-line is the right side. They are pretty solid at LT, LG, and C. We'll have to wait and see what what the young dudes bring.

 

You also have to factor the 5-6 TDs that are counted in that defensive PPG stat that came directly off Geno's gifts, then add the short field due to the turnovers and you have a recipe for piling up the score, despite a decent defense.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

The Bills attempted to get a proven staring tackle in free agency and fell short. Then waited until round 3 to draft Miller who seems undersized and is raw to be an immediate starter. Koundjo really needs to step it up and there is not much to go by other than hope and Henderson lareaduy seems to be in the dog house. If the Bills are going to pound the rock than Whaley really needs to step up and go for Mathis or some other FA and stop trying to plug in retreads. With Williams back surgery and his reputation for being hurt there is not much starting or even backup depth to pave the way fro Shady and company. If we are going to open holes for the running game we need to get a proven tackle besides Cordy Glenn and another guard before it is too late.

 

So, let's get down to specifics. What other FA do you have in mind? And what sort of a contract do you think it's reasonable for them to offer Mathis? Keep in mind the Iggles cut him because he was pissed off and whining at a paltry $5.5M/yr

[C.Biscuit97]

Chris Williams is not a factor in this equation. He's obviously gonna get cut. It's gonna be glenn, incognito, wood, miller and whoever wins the battle between cyrus and Henderson and it's going to be a vastly improved line. Barring injury I'd be shocked if it's not a good line. Please stop with this. You talk about whaley not addressing the line- he went all in on the line one year ago and all three were viewed as great value picks at the time. Give the guys a year or two would ya?

Agree with this for the most part. It's funny that Qbs don't get the same patience. Double standard much?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Miller sounds like a perfect fit, so where's the link to the raw part being the case ?

 

You know, I'll give the OP that. Marv Levy said it: "I hate rookies. They all make mistakes, all of them." We haven't seen Miller in pads yet much less in a game. So until we do, he's a rookie, I'm OK with calling him "raw".

 

I think we all would have liked to see more done to upgrade the OL this off season the question is with whom and for how much?

 

I wasn't happy when we let Levitre go but has the money the Titans gave him proven well spent? And how did Belichek** get Brady's* OL to go from entirely inadequate the first 3 games to "decent" the rest of the year with nameless dudes? I personally think a bathtub of entrails ^^ may have been involved, but the point is, line improvement can be achieved in-season if the coach the chops to coach and make changes (scheme and people) until something works.

 

^^probably NSFW or possibly any other time

[YoloinOhio]

The Bills attempted to get a proven staring tackle in free agency and fell short. Then waited until round 3 to draft Miller who seems undersized and is raw to be an immediate starter. Koundjo really needs to step it up and there is not much to go by other than hope and Henderson lareaduy seems to be in the dog house. If the Bills are going to pound the rock than Whaley really needs to step up and go for Mathis or some other FA and stop trying to plug in retreads. With Williams back surgery and his reputation for being hurt there is not much starting or even backup depth to pave the way fro Shady and company. If we are going to open holes for the running game we need to get a proven tackle besides Cordy Glenn and another guard before it is too late.

Isn't any FA available in June a "retread"?

[Beerball]

Isn't any FA available in June a "retread"?

Yes, or a never has been.

[hondo in seattle]

The Bills attempted to get a proven staring tackle in free agency and fell short. Then waited until round 3 to draft Miller who seems undersized and is raw to be an immediate starter. Koundjo really needs to step it up and there is not much to go by other than hope and Henderson lareaduy seems to be in the dog house. If the Bills are going to pound the rock than Whaley really needs to step up and go for Mathis or some other FA and stop trying to plug in retreads. With Williams back surgery and his reputation for being hurt there is not much starting or even backup depth to pave the way fro Shady and company. If we are going to open holes for the running game we need to get a proven tackle besides Cordy Glenn and another guard before it is too late.

 

 

Any player acquisition is a roll of the dice. And 31 other smart GMs are trying to outmaneuver and outsmart you. And then the salary cap complicates everything. Given the challenges, no GM is going to win all the time.

 

Whaley has done a good job building this team. It doesn't seem he's succeeded at QB or OL yet. But we need to judge the overall body of work and give him more time.

 

Let's see what kind of team the Bills field this year? Will it be significantly better than the team Whaley inherited?

[PromoTheRobot]

Isn't any FA available in June a "retread"?

"Stop getting retreads and go out and sign a retread!" The Zen of TBD.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

You know, I'll give the OP that. Marv Levy said it: "I hate rookies. They all make mistakes, all of them." We haven't seen Miller in pads yet much less in a game. So until we do, he's a rookie, I'm OK with calling him "raw".

 

I think we all would have liked to see more done to upgrade the OL this off season the question is with whom and for how much?

 

I wasn't happy when we let Levitre go but has the money the Titans gave him proven well spent? And how did Belichek** get Brady's* OL to go from entirely inadequate the first 3 games to "decent" the rest of the year with nameless dudes? I personally think a bathtub of entrails ^^ may have been involved, but the point is, line improvement can be achieved in-season if the coach the chops to coach and make changes (scheme and people) until something works.

 

^^probably NSFW or possibly any other time

I guess that this is where we disagree. There are all kinds of prospects. You would not have found a scout in the world that would have called Jake Mathews raw last year. The same goes for Andrew Luck or Amari Cooper. Not all rookies are raw.

 

There are other guys like Mike Jasper that are pretty much the definition of raw. NFL starts do not define how raw somebody is. That is based on how much development is required for them to step in and play. If you hear the word "safe" describing a player that means he is not raw. There are guys that are raw but have massive upside. A good example of that from this past draft is Byron Jones. He has amazing athleticism but it remains to be seen what kind of player he will be. He is a high ceiling, low floor type of player. Miller is the opposite.

[pbanach]

Definitely not sold on the line yet, although I think the scheme will help.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I guess that this is where we disagree. There are all kinds of prospects. You would not have found a scout in the world that would have called Jake Mathews raw last year. The same goes for Andrew Luck or Amari Cooper. Not all rookies are raw.

 

There are other guys like Mike Jasper that are pretty much the definition of raw. NFL starts do not define how raw somebody is. That is based on how much development is required for them to step in and play. If you hear the word "safe" describing a player that means he is not raw. There are guys that are raw but have massive upside. A good example of that from this past draft is Byron Jones. He has amazing athleticism but it remains to be seen what kind of player he will be. He is a high ceiling, low floor type of player. Miller is the opposite.

 

It's cool, we can disagree. My point is you can see that a guy has his head in the playbook and understands what he's supposed to do, but until you see him in a game, you don't know. I truly doubt every scout in the world would be willing to pronounce Jake Matthews or Amari Cooper "not raw" until at least training camp, with pads, or a preseason game.

 

I would like to understand what the opposite of high ceiling, low floor is - would it be low ceiling, high floor? Sorry, I can't make sense of it.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

It's cool, we can disagree. My point is you can see that a guy has his head in the playbook and understands what he's supposed to do, but until you see him in a game, you don't know. I truly doubt every scout in the world would be willing to pronounce Jake Matthews or Amari Cooper "not raw" until at least training camp, with pads, or a preseason game.

 

I would like to understand what the opposite of high ceiling, low floor is - would it be low ceiling, high floor? Sorry, I can't make sense of it.

I guess a better example from last year would be Greg Robinson and Jake Mathews. Jake Mathews floor is a really good starter. His ceiling is a pro bowler. Greg Robinson's floor is a backup and his ceiling is a HOFer. It depends on what you are looking for. The Bills drafted Miller specifically because he was a high floor guy. His worst case scenario was a solid player. His best case scenario though isn't much higher than that. There isn't a lot of development left between where he is and where they think that he may end up. There is a canyon between where Byron Jones is and where he may end up. The perfect situation is a guy like Watkins or Khalil Mack who were high floor, high ceiling prospects. That is the best case scenario.

 

Yes, the opposite of a high ceiling, low floor would be a low ceiling, high floor. It basically means that there isn't much (if any) bust potential but there is also not a lot of improvement that you can expect from here. He is entering the league as a guy ready to be a day one starter. We should not expect in year 3 to see a significant improvement. That is not meant as a knock at all. He is a polished guy; that is what the Bills needed. They had a hole at guard and could not afford to roll the dice with a guy that could be good or could be bad. They had to take a guy that could come in and play even if the other guy may be the better player 3 years down the road.

 

They kind of did the opposite at RB. Karlos Williams is a freak athlete that changed positions. He has a lot of development but has a ton of upside. The Bills do not need him to be a major contributor in year 1. They are taking their chance on his development and finding great value in the pick. It all depends on your situation at a particular position when you are evaluating talent. We were obviously in much better shape at RB than OG when the draft started.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[KDIGGZ]

I'm not sold on Kouandjio. He was so bad last year that he didn't even dress on game days. Now all of a sudden he's good enough to start? I know a lot of that was probably Marrone but he looked pretty bad last year. Let's wait until the pads come on before we anoint him the starter

[QB Bills]

One key guy that nobody is mentioning here is aaron kromer. From what I've read, he's a really good coach and hopefully he can undo the mess marrone made of this line.

[YoloinOhio]

I'm not sold on Kouandjio. He was so bad last year that he didn't even dress on game days. Now all of a sudden he's good enough to start? I know a lot of that was probably Marrone but he looked pretty bad last year. Let's wait until the pads come on before we anoint him the starter

Not really trying to defend him as I have no clue how good he is but when did he look bad, since he never played. TC? Preseason? I'm willing to keep an open mind, but I doubt anyone is "sold" on him.