PlayoffsPlease Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 There are a lot of ridiculous comparisons of deflategate to things like the pete rose situation, PED use, or intentionally harming players with "bountygate". There seems to be a complete lack of perspective. A reasonable analogy would be Gaylord Perry and his use of a spitball. Everyone knew it, he got caught. And yet people were able to get over themselves and enjoy him for the talent he was. He was eventually elected to the hall of fame for all of his legitimate accomplishments. All of the interweb physicists who are concocting reasons of why a 1 lb decrease in ball pressure is directly related to winning multiple super bowls need to get a grip on reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Corked bat is a good analogy. Imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 It is tough to draw perfect analogies, but I think the factors to consider in making an analogy are: 1) degree of competitive advantage gained 2) degree of regulation 3) degree of concealment and deception Agree and there is a broader context. The team was caught videotaping signals, their use of eligible / ineligible receivers while within the rules is highly suspect and now there is deflategate. The fact this team appears to be willing to test limits repeatedly is troubling. It is a slippery slope for the league. The message is winning is more important than sportsmanship and fair play. Brady is a great player and will be in the HOF. However, I still have zero respect for him. Unlike a Bob Griese who also consistently beat the Bills or maybe someone like Troy Aikman, at least they beat the Bills straight up without manipulating the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 It is tough to draw perfect analogies, but I think the factors to consider in making an analogy are: 1) degree of competitive advantage gained 2) degree of regulation 3) degree of concealment and deception These are good points. I realize it's outside of the specific act, but a history of similar transgressions can't be ignored. The violation isn't accurately judged in a vacuum. The pattern is part of the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Agree and there is a broader context. The team was caught videotaping signals, their use of eligible / ineligible receivers while within the rules is highly suspect and now there is deflategate. The fact this team appears to be willing to test limits repeatedly is troubling. It is a slippery slope for the league. The message is winning is more important than sportsmanship and fair play. Brady is a great player and will be in the HOF. However, I still have zero respect for him. Unlike a Bob Griese who also consistently beat the Bills or maybe someone like Troy Aikman, at least they beat the Bills straight up without manipulating the rules. This is my hang-up ... the history. If this was an isolated incident, I'd definitely agree with the corked bat/spitball analogies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 get a grip on reality. Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manther Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 There are a lot of ridiculous comparisons of deflategate to things like the pete rose situation, PED use, or intentionally harming players with "bountygate". There seems to be a complete lack of perspective. A reasonable analogy would be Gaylord Perry and his use of a spitball. Everyone knew it, he got caught. And yet people were able to get over themselves and enjoy him for the talent he was. He was eventually elected to the hall of fame for all of his legitimate accomplishments. All of the interweb physicists who are concocting reasons of why a 1 lb decrease in ball pressure is directly related to winning multiple super bowls need to get a grip on reality. I don't think it is that simple. The Pats went and deflated the balls after they were in League possession. They essentially stole the balls AND then deflated them. They essentially cheated to cheat again. THEN, they screamed and yelled from the top of the mountain like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens that they didn't do it and the League owed them an apology (Robert Kraft). The Pats ** cheated to cheat and THEN attacked the League from Robert Kraft, Tom Brady, Brady's agent, Brady's father and so on. Totally different. The cheating didn't bother me much until the Pats started fighting back like they are above the league and can bully the league around! IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Is cheating really so much a part of modern day culture that so many people can look at a blatant case such as this and be content with a slap on the wrist type penalty of a 1-4 week suspension? I don't know about anybody else, but I was raised to be honest, work for my achievements, and not to cheat. IMO any first offense premeditated cheating should get a one yead ban, regardless as to what exact level of actual benefit the cheating achieved. Second offenses should be a lifetime ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I really wish someone would compile a video showing the flagrant holding and illegal blocking non-calls and the ridiculously favorable calls the Kraft/Belichick/Brady Patriots have had the luxury of receiving, to add to the Patriots' history of stretching and flaunting the rules. Oh, and let's not forget their cushy schedules over the years when conference opponents had to play them after a bye or long week. IT. ALL. ADDS. UP!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I don't think it is that simple. The Pats went and deflated the balls after they were in League possession. They essentially stole the balls AND then deflated them. They essentially cheated to cheat again. THEN, they screamed and yelled from the top of the mountain like Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens that they didn't do it and the League owed them an apology (Robert Kraft). The Pats ** cheated to cheat and THEN attacked the League from Robert Kraft, Tom Brady, Brady's agent, Brady's father and so on. Totally different. The cheating didn't bother me much until the Pats started fighting back like they are above the league and can bully the league around! IMHO This is exactly it. I was listening to Sirius NFL radio this morning; Poppa and Toomer were talking about the Browns and Falcons and nobody making demands for their cheating. They totally are missing your (our?) point. It's not that the Pats** keep winning, it is the conscious effort to beat the rules. If the Falcons or Browns stood up at the podium and preached their innocence, we as NFL fans would be beating the same drum. This isn't about the W-L, or competitive advantage anymore. It's the organizational bribery and to and general skeevey-ness to go around the league to break the rules. With all the coach the NFL brings in, it's odd to me that they don't have neutral employees at every game in the home teams AV booth (Colts/Falcons), or handling the game equipment. They should. Or similar to rowing at the World Champs, all boat classes have a minimum weight. You weigh in pre race, add weight if need be. Then if you win a medal, first thing when you get back to the dock is you put your boat back on the scale. If it's under weight, disqualified. Happened in the Semi-final at the 2010 national championships here too. The athlete wasn't allowed to race the final. Weigh the balls before and after. If they are off by a significant margin, automatic loss, fine, loss of draft lick. Whatever, doesn't matter. But for high stakes, big money sport, the level of control lies too much on the honor system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Corked bat is a good analogy. Imo. In terms of being illegal yes, but it is a myth that cork gives the player extra distance/power than a standard bat. In fact it's less. Deflating footballs gives the QB as well as anyone else who touches the football an advantage. There is no advantage to corking a bat. Edited May 11, 2015 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 This is exactly it. I was listening to Sirius NFL radio this morning; Poppa and Toomer were talking about the Browns and Falcons and nobody making demands for their cheating. They totally are missing your (our?) point. It's not that the Pats** keep winning, it is the conscious effort to beat the rules. If the Falcons or Browns stood up at the podium and preached their innocence, we as NFL fans would be beating the same drum. This isn't about the W-L, or competitive advantage anymore. It's the organizational bribery and to and general skeevey-ness to go around the league to break the rules. With all the coach the NFL brings in, it's odd to me that they don't have neutral employees at every game in the home teams AV booth (Colts/Falcons), or handling the game equipment. They should. Or similar to rowing at the World Champs, all boat classes have a minimum weight. You weigh in pre race, add weight if need be. Then if you win a medal, first thing when you get back to the dock is you put your boat back on the scale. If it's under weight, disqualified. Happened in the Semi-final at the 2010 national championships here too. The athlete wasn't allowed to race the final. Weigh the balls before and after. If they are off by a significant margin, automatic loss, fine, loss of draft lick. Whatever, doesn't matter. But for high stakes, big money sport, the level of control lies too much on the honor system. while i generally agree that the nfl has done a terrible job here, i also think weighing the balls post game with an automatic loss on the table is silly too. it seems the answer is either A) dont care how they are prepped B) have a neutral league employee handle them and be responsible for any touch up needed during the game (ie once turned in, team employees dont touch them again) In terms of being illegal yes, but it is a myth that cork gives the player extra distance/power than a standard bat. In fact it's less. Deflatating footballs gives the QB as well as anyone else who touches the football an advantage. is it possible this is a myth too? bradys passing stats are roughly the same home vs road, and the pats fumble more at home, where they have more access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Agree and there is a broader context. The team was caught videotaping signals, their use of eligible / ineligible receivers while within the rules is highly suspect and now there is deflategate. The fact this team appears to be willing to test limits repeatedly is troubling. It is a slippery slope for the league. The message is winning is more important than sportsmanship and fair play. Brady is a great player and will be in the HOF. However, I still have zero respect for him. Unlike a Bob Griese who also consistently beat the Bills or maybe someone like Troy Aikman, at least they beat the Bills straight up without manipulating the rules. To me, the broader context also includes the fact that not only did their QB gain an advantage (if it wasn't an advantage he wouldn't have done it), but Brady's lobbying for new ball rules also correlated with a marked drop in overall fumbles by the Patriots, which becomes a huge competitive advantage that may have won them untold number of games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 while i generally agree that the nfl has done a terrible job here, i also think weighing the balls post game with an automatic loss on the table is silly too. it seems the answer is either A) dont care how they are prepped B) have a neutral league employee handle them and be responsible for any touch up needed during the game (ie once turned in, team employees dont touch them again) is it possible this is a myth too? bradys passing stats are roughly the same home vs road, and the pats fumble more at home, where they have more access. The fumbling statistics from 2007 to present day lead me to believe it is not a myth and there is certainly an advantage they have gained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 The fumbling statistics from 2007 to present day lead me to believe it is not a myth and there is certainly an advantage they have gained. in my continued curiosity to figure out that advantage - any theories on why the rate was higher at home, when theyd seemingly have more access to the equipment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Corked bat isn't right to me. A corked bat would allegedly give 1 player a competitive advantage. Deflating the ball give about 5-6 players an advantage on offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmur66 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I would compare it to cheating in Nascar. And I imagine The Pats are not the only team that did it. Its only cheating when you get caught. Fine and dock points. In the NFL that would be a fine and maybe a suspension. Nascar doesn't take away wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) in my continued curiosity to figure out that advantage - any theories on why the rate was higher at home, when theyd seemingly have more access to the equipment? They might play in worse weather at home than on the road. Perhaps the cold, snow etc are factors. Who knows? Even then they fumble way less than any other team in the NFL and they are the only ones accused of purposely deflating footballs and deflation is proven to give you better grip on a football. Edited May 11, 2015 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Corked bat isn't right to me. A corked bat would allegedly give 1 player a competitive advantage. Deflating the ball give about 5-6 players an advantage on offense. i think you could argue that in baseball everyones ship rises with that tide. if we drop some average and power into the middle of the lineup it helps the guys ahead and behind, and a pitcher getting more run support, and.... maybe not a perfect apples to apples, but just like advanced stats dont always translate because of the 1-1 nature of events in baseball vs team actions in football, its hard to find a cross sport analogy here that is PERFECT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) in my continued curiosity to figure out that advantage - any theories on why the rate was higher at home, when theyd seemingly have more access to the equipment? Could depend on a lot of things. Say they played Tennessee away (had 5 forced fumbles last year) and played Philly at home (had 26 FF's last year). Quality of opponent I guess you could call it. As funny as it may be, weather could also play a factor. Even if the ball is softer, in cold weather conditions, you are cold, the ball is cold and hard. Just some theories. Can't prove any of them but theories none the less. Edited May 11, 2015 by The Wiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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