Article: Quit Sleeping on EJ Manuel

[Beerball]

The reason why people have given up on EJ when he hasn't even started a whole season of games yet is because he hasn't shown anything that even resembles a franchise QB. There have been no glimpses of anything that says that he is the guy. Other QB's that have turned into franchise QBs have at least shown glimpses in less time than it has taken EJ. Not every Qb but a lot of them of them show signs that they have what it takes. This is not the case with EJ. Everything that we have seen from EJ at this point tells me that we have already seen his ceiling. There is nothing in his game that says he could even be the next Joe Flacco much less a guy like Aaron Rodgers

As with most absolute declarations you're incorrect IMO. Manuel has shown flashes, not enough for sure, but they were there for most to see.

[Doc]

Tyrod Taylor has literally shown nothing in the NFL over his 4 years. Why anyone would think he's above EJ is beyond comprehension, other than he was a backup on the Ravens and the Ravens won a SB a couple years ago, and he's a shiny new toy. Hell I'd even say that Cassel isn't even the clear #1 as he's had just 2 good seasons out of his 10.

[stevewin]

All of our QBs regressed last year thanks to Todd Downing. Look back at what Todd Downing (TD) did with Matt Stafford in 2013 - worst year ever. Our QBs are automatically better with TD gone. Orton was absolutely terrible by the end of the year.

I remember EJ's first year there were articles about how Hackett was intent on changing these details in EJ's footwork, and it was so obvious EJ wasn't comfortable at all in what they were asking him to do - and it was obvious Hackett was being obstinate that it be done his way. I kept thinking that Hackett should be more concerned initially with coaching the position at a high level and less about obsessing about minutiae like which half step should be taken where. All I ever wanted to see from EJ was for him to just rip the ball, he always seemed like he was overthinking everything.

 

I think EJs biggest challenge to winning the job back this year could be winning back guys like Woods and Watkins. They really seemed like they quit on him last year and no longer had any faith in him - he's going to have to come in and win them over and convince them that they can now trust and believe in him as being 'the guy'.

[Beerball]

Tyrod Taylor has literally shown nothing in the NFL over his 4 years. Why anyone would think he's above EJ is beyond comprehension, other than he was a backup on the Ravens and the Ravens won a SB a couple years ago, and he's a shiny new toy. Hell I'd even say that Cassel isn't even the clear #1 as he's had just 2 good seasons out of his 10.

Your first sentence is the answer to your question in the second.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Cue the "yeah but we knew he was going to be a project" posts.

 

If you're a top 20 pick and after 2 years you're still a bottom tier player, what does that tell us?

 

1)that >50% of draft picks in the 2nd half of the 1st round don't work out, and maybe you're one of them

2)that QB who do work out, including QB drafted in the bottom half of the first round, sometimes take 2-5 years to develop and you haven't had those years yet

3)that your team should immediately throw you in the trash after 14 games because impatient fans say so

 

One of those choices is positive.

 

Why are people so determined to tout outcomes that are negative outcomes for the Bills? It's not as if the team (this year) did nothing to acquire other choices at QB in a timely way prior to preseason.

[Gugny]

 

 

Noone is giving up on Manuel but this year he needs to earn it. There is no excuses for him anymore. This is his third year in the league & this team is ready to win now. If he can't beat out Matt cassel & Tyron Taylor, he probably doesn't have much of a future in the NFL.

 

 

I am 100% onboard with saying that he needs to earn it and that there are no excuses. I do, however, think he has a future in the NFL, whether or not he seals the deal with Buffalo.

[What a Tuel]

Joe Flacco went to the AFCCG his rookie year and lead his team to win 8 of their last 10 games to clinch a playoff berth. He was also the first rookie in NFL history to win two playoff games.

 

Research!

 

If you are going to claim research, you should probably include stats in his rookie playoff run.

 

Joe Flacco had a combined 437 yds 2 td (1 passing, 1 rushing) and 3 ints in that playoff run. (3 games)

 

Completion %? 39.1 50.0 and 43.3 respectively

 

While I agree playoff runs boost people's perception of a QB's abilities, 4 straight playoff eliminations will also cast doubt. That's why there were always questions about Flacco and whether he was an elite QB. All the way up to after he won the Super Bowl, and people even then criticized his huge payday. I can't imagine people were throwing around "Franchise QB" during these first couple years, but he eventually proved he could be a legitimate NFL QB, and EJ will have to do the same. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. As long as our GM has his head clear and keeps his eyes open for our next QB, we have no incentive to run anyone out of town.

 

Wish NFL Rewind went back that far. I'd love to check out his rookie season again.

 

I booted up the first game in 2009 Baltimore against Kansas City, and a couple things stood out.

 

He has a big arm, and guns it in there.

 

The Baltimore o-line seems to be outstanding, I wonder what they were ranked that year, the Chiefs D seemed to be pretty bad this game.

 

He has a couple throws that would have people yelling that he is trying to kill his WR's

 

He had a couple throws that were behind the WR, or 2 feet above their heads

 

He had a nice TD pass that was dropped by the WR

 

Overall, I don't think EJ was playing at Flaccos 2009 level in 2014, and probably 2013, but I think Flacco had some help. He had all day sometimes. Bottom line is, who ever is under center, we need to set them up to succeed.

Edited April 2, 2015 by What a Tuel

[BuffaloHokie13]

Tyrod Taylor has literally shown nothing in the NFL over his 4 years. Why anyone would think he's above EJ is beyond comprehension, other than he was a backup on the Ravens and the Ravens won a SB a couple years ago, and he's a shiny new toy. Hell I'd even say that Cassel isn't even the clear #1 as he's had just 2 good seasons out of his 10.

If EJ is on the Ravens for the past 4 years, does he see the field? There are people who are optimistic about Tyrod because he is an exceptional athlete with a decent arm who came out as a project and was given 4 years to learn without being tossed to the wolves. It also says something to me that he has the confidence to bet on himself and take less money for an opportunity to start instead of taking more money to follow his OC to Denver and back up Peyton Manning. Does that mean he is definitively better than anyone else on the team? No. But to say that the organization is better off if EJ wins than Tyrod is funny given they're practically the same age. And to hold the fact that he was a backup to Flacco for his entire rookie contract against him is just silly.

 

I have been consistent in saying I will be happy if either young guy steps up and makes strides towards being a solid starter, and I maintain that, but I don't think it's right to write either off before we see them in the same system on the same field with the same players.

[Gugny]

 

If you are going to claim research, you should probably include stats in his rookie playoff run.

 

Joe Flacco had a combined 437 yds 2 td (1 passing, 1 rushing) and 3 ints in that playoff run.

 

Completion %? 39.1 50.0 and 43.3 respectively

 

While I agree playoff runs boost people's perception of a QB's abilities, 4 straight playoff eliminations will also cast doubt. That's why there were always questions about Flacco and whether he was an elite QB. All the way up to after he won the Super Bowl, and people even then criticized his huge payday. I can't imagine people were throwing around "Franchise QB" during these first couple years, but he eventually proved he could be a legitimate NFL QB, and EJ will have to do the same. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. As long as our GM has his head clear and keeps his eyes open for our next QB, we have no incentive to run anyone out of town.

 

Wish NFL Rewind went back that far. I'd love to check out his rookie season again.

 

I booted up the first game in 2009 Baltimore against Kansas City, and a couple things stood out.

 

He has a big arm, and guns it in there.

 

The Baltimore o-line seems to be outstanding, I wonder what they were ranked that year, the Chiefs D seemed to be pretty bad this game.

 

 

Overall, I don't think EJ was playing at Flaccos 2009 level in 2014, and probably 2013, but I think Flacco had some help. He had all day sometimes. Bottom line is, who ever is under center, we need to set them up to succeed.

I've always thought that comparing EJ to Flacco was pretty accurate. Mostly because they've both shown that CAN be very good, but neither has shown that he can be very good CONSISTENTLY. The biggest difference is that Flacco has had a hell of a lot more time to prove/disprove himself.

[ProcessAccepted]

How great would it be to see Taylor win the competition and light it up this season? I love the overlooked, forgotten and the damned! Bills fan forever!

Personally I don't care which qb it is. I just want that key positions to be our biggest weakness anymore.

EJ seems to be really trying and putting in the effort. I hope it works out for him. That being said I just want a qb that can effectively do his job in Romans offense.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I believe that EJ Manuel is currently the third best QB on the Bills.

Beware Tyrod Taylor.

The article was good though.

 

Curious about the factual basis for your belief, if any

 

Cassel is a career mediocre QB who has had 2 successful years with playoff-quality teams. If you look at game logs, he is inconsistent - one game >70% completions, another <40%. Overall he averages 58.9% completions in his 10 year career, even with two seasons >60%.

Taylor has thrown 35 passes in the NFL for 54% completion. You might think being kept as a backup to Flacco for 4 years says something, but then again, how long did we keep Hamdan?

 

I'm not saying EJ is great, just wondering how someone looks at the roster and concludes EJ is 3rd.

[GunnerBill]

What were the 3 games? I only remember Atlanta.

 

The three games the post you responded to put forward were opening day vs New England, at Cleveland and Atlanta in Toronto. I wasn't arguing that he was right - just pointing out that if you turn those 3 into wins actually we would have made the play-offs. Personally I think we the Atlanta game away and the coach and GM were to blame for losing the Cleveland game by virtue of the omly Quarterback they had backing up EJ on the roster was Jeff Tuel.

[CodeMonkey]

I can understand how people can have doubt. What I cannot understand is how anyone can give up on a QB with less than a full season of playing time under his belt. I'm not the "I told you so," type, but when EJ wins the job and kicks ass this season, I might become one, temporarily.

Lets hope you get that chance!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I can understand how people can have doubt. What I cannot understand is how anyone can give up on a QB with less than a full season of playing time under his belt. I'm not the "I told you so," type, but when EJ wins the job and kicks ass this season, I might become one, temporarily.

 

We live in the Youtube era of instant gratification, plus recent rookie success QB like Luck and Wilson skew perception of the other 13 QB drafted in the 1st 3 rounds over the last 3 years.

 

Are you so insecure about EJ that nobody can have anything but a positive opinion of him? Goodness some of you are so sensitive over this kid.

 

Are you so challenged in reading comprehension that when a guy (sarcastically, I believe) wonders how someone looks at the data around the 4 QB currently on the Bills roster and concludes, with any factual basis, that EJ is #3, you honestly believe it amounts to extreme sensitivity and a demand for only positive opinions of EJ?

 

Or do you actually understand that someone could have a skeptical or negative opinion of EJ and still question how the "3rd best on our roster" conclusion got reached, and you're just inserting a straw man into the field?

[Doc]

Your first sentence is the answer to your question in the second.

I know. Doesn't make it a good answer.

If EJ is on the Ravens for the past 4 years, does he see the field? There are people who are optimistic about Tyrod because he is an exceptional athlete with a decent arm who came out as a project and was given 4 years to learn without being tossed to the wolves. It also says something to me that he has the confidence to bet on himself and take less money for an opportunity to start instead of taking more money to follow his OC to Denver and back up Peyton Manning. Does that mean he is definitively better than anyone else on the team? No. But to say that the organization is better off if EJ wins than Tyrod is funny given they're practically the same age. And to hold the fact that he was a backup to Flacco for his entire rookie contract against him is just silly.

 

I have been consistent in saying I will be happy if either young guy steps up and makes strides towards being a solid starter, and I maintain that, but I don't think it's right to write either off before we see them in the same system on the same field with the same players.

If EJ was on the Ravens, he also wouldn't have seen the field much. But in Taylor's opps, especially pre-season, he's done nothing noteworthy and his stats aren't even as good as EJ's, despite a far better coaching staff. Which is why talk of him being the 2nd best QB on the team is curious.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

If EJ is on the Ravens for the past 4 years, does he see the field? There are people who are optimistic about Tyrod because he is an exceptional athlete with a decent arm who came out as a project and was given 4 years to learn without being tossed to the wolves. It also says something to me that he has the confidence to bet on himself and take less money for an opportunity to start instead of taking more money to follow his OC to Denver and back up Peyton Manning. Does that mean he is definitively better than anyone else on the team? No. But to say that the organization is better off if EJ wins than Tyrod is funny given they're practically the same age. And to hold the fact that he was a backup to Flacco for his entire rookie contract against him is just silly.

 

I understand the optimism. I myself would like to see what he's got - since his completion % improved every year in college it says to me he's a guy who can learn and wants to learn, so who knows what's there if he's availed himself well of the chance to work with NFL players on the scout team every week and watch film alongside good coaches in a winning organization for the last 4 years. I assume that's what intrigued the Bills as well and led them to acquire him (I was worried they saw him as a gimmick player but now I don't think so).

 

What I don't understand is how people can look at the roster and Taylor's record as a pro (all 35 passes of it) and conclude EJ is the 3rd QB on our roster. He may be, he may not be, there just doesn't seem to be any data.

 

The main thing I wonder about with Taylor is his size, but Brees and Wilson prove you can't measure the heart it takes to succeed in the NFL.

[Dorkington]

Well, I also work in Maryland, and I saw plenty from fans and local media. Here is a sampling:

 

- Ravens backup QB Tyrod Taylor ready if needed

- Tyrod Taylor Impressing In Training Camp

- Flacco appears unhappy with the Ravens use of Taylor

- Will Taylor be Ravens backup QB next season?

- Taylor understands he'll face competition in final year of contract (note he won that competition)

- Taylor ready to make the most of final preseason start

- Tyrod Taylor visiting Buffalo Bills, Ravens remain interested, sources say

- Quarterback Tyrod Taylor Chooses Bills Over Broncos

 

 

Yes, this created a lot of buzz throughout Ravens fans. When your team's captain, head coach and OC all sing one guy's praises...

Fair enough. I'm in DC, and there hasn't been much about him around here, so I guess we only get the "bigger" Ravens news 40 minutes away

[LB3]

Cue the "yeah but we knew he was going to be a project" posts.

 

If you're a top 20 pick and after 2 years you're still a bottom tier player, what does that tell us?

That's you're Ryan Tannehill?

[BuffaloHokie13]

 

I understand the optimism. I myself would like to see what he's got - since his completion % improved every year in college it says to me he's a guy who can learn and wants to learn, so who knows what's there if he's availed himself well of the chance to work with NFL players on the scout team every week and watch film alongside good coaches in a winning organization for the last 4 years. I assume that's what intrigued the Bills as well and led them to acquire him (I was worried they saw him as a gimmick player but now I don't think so).

 

What I don't understand is how people can look at the roster and Taylor's record as a pro (all 35 passes of it) and conclude EJ is the 3rd QB on our roster. He may be, he may not be, there just doesn't seem to be any data.

 

The main thing I wonder about with Taylor is his size, but Brees and Wilson prove you can't measure the heart it takes to succeed in the NFL.

 

Well, I think you know I'm not one of those people even though my homer factor makes me expect more from Taylor than most. I see a lot of the opposite here as well too. Taylor is just here to compete with Tuel, is a nobody, and hasn't done anything. It seems there a lot of the people here who think 14 games is too few to judge EJ, but 35 pass attempts (which came at the end of games where he came in cold) are enough to relegate Taylor to the practice squad (not picking on you here, just a general observation). Again, I think at least one of the young guys will step up, and Cassel is a last resort insurance policy.

[FireChan]

 

If you are going to claim research, you should probably include stats in his rookie playoff run.

 

Joe Flacco had a combined 437 yds 2 td (1 passing, 1 rushing) and 3 ints in that playoff run. (3 games)

 

Completion %? 39.1 50.0 and 43.3 respectively

 

While I agree playoff runs boost people's perception of a QB's abilities, 4 straight playoff eliminations will also cast doubt. That's why there were always questions about Flacco and whether he was an elite QB. All the way up to after he won the Super Bowl, and people even then criticized his huge payday. I can't imagine people were throwing around "Franchise QB" during these first couple years, but he eventually proved he could be a legitimate NFL QB, and EJ will have to do the same. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. As long as our GM has his head clear and keeps his eyes open for our next QB, we have no incentive to run anyone out of town.

 

Wish NFL Rewind went back that far. I'd love to check out his rookie season again.

 

I booted up the first game in 2009 Baltimore against Kansas City, and a couple things stood out.

 

He has a big arm, and guns it in there.

 

The Baltimore o-line seems to be outstanding, I wonder what they were ranked that year, the Chiefs D seemed to be pretty bad this game.

 

He has a couple throws that would have people yelling that he is trying to kill his WR's

 

He had a couple throws that were behind the WR, or 2 feet above their heads

 

He had a nice TD pass that was dropped by the WR

 

Overall, I don't think EJ was playing at Flaccos 2009 level in 2014, and probably 2013, but I think Flacco had some help. He had all day sometimes. Bottom line is, who ever is under center, we need to set them up to succeed.

I think that Flacco threw two of those picks in their AFCCG loss. I disagree that 4 playoff eliminations cast any doubt your first four years in the league. Are you going to "doubt" Luck if they don't win the SB next year? Brady got eliminated a bunch of times before winning his 4th Superbowl. Same with Brees etc etc.

 

Joe had an above average to really good second year, and won another playoff game. He (and the Ravens) kicked the crap out of the Pats who were only 2 years removed from the almost undefeated team. Flacco has had some lows, no doubt, but he was above average from day one. He has the best playoff record in the NFL since his rookie year. He has only missed the post season once, which appears to be an anomaly. He deserved that contract. I would be calling EJ our franchise guy if he had a year one and year two like Flacco, and 99% of Bills fans would agree.