nucci Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 @ProFootballTalk: Russell Wilson says God spoke to him immediately after Super Bowl interception http://t.co/qlLybfEU0m I'm just here for the comments. God said, why the hell did you throw the ball and not give it to Lynch?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 @ProFootballTalk: Russell Wilson says God spoke to him immediately after Super Bowl interception http://t.co/qlLybfEU0m I'm just here for the comments. Wilson went on to say that God often announces penalties and has an eclectic taste in music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 I wonder if SJ13 ever received an answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Wilson is becoming Tebow if Tebow could throw. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/russell-wilson-says-he-and-girlfriend-ciara-aren-t-having-sex--and-that-has-people-all-abuzz-232506231.html Good for him for sticking to his values. But his lady has been around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Wilson is becoming Tebow if Tebow could throw. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/russell-wilson-says-he-and-girlfriend-ciara-aren-t-having-sex--and-that-has-people-all-abuzz-232506231.html Good for him for sticking to his values. But his lady has been around. probably not much longer if this continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) According to who? I bet the Bills think Mario is well worth what they paid him and would do it again in a heartbeat.According to people who look at production versus contract and the market in general. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to have him on the team. But a team can't do deals like that very often and for every extra dollar overspent the team must make that back up somewhere. That means adding additional inexpensive, quality players via draft or free agency. And that goes beyond the typical quantity of quality, inexpensive players a team can expect to add each season in those ways. Here are some things to look at: http://overthecap.com/tag/stevie-johnson/ http://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-end/ I know overpaying big time was the only way to get Mario to Buffalo. I get that. The Bills have to draft better if they're going to do things like that though. And they've done more of that sort of thing, like with Clay and Shady (where they also gave up a very inexpensive, high quality player in Kiko). That's what is concerning to me. Edited July 8, 2015 by BarleyNY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 According to people who look at production versus contract and the market in general. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to have him on the team. But a team can't do deals like that very often and for every extra dollar overspent the team must make that back up somewhere. That means adding additional inexpensive, quality players via draft or free agency. And that goes beyond the typical quantity of quality, inexpensive players a team can expect to add each season in those ways. Here are some things to look at: http://overthecap.com/tag/stevie-johnson/ http://overthecap.com/position/4-3-defensive-end/ I know overpaying big time was the only way to get Mario to Buffalo. I get that. The Bills have to draft better if they're going to do things like that though. And they've done more of that sort of thing, like with Clay and Shady (where they also gave up a very inexpensive, high quality player in Kiko). That's what is concerning to me. Interesting article but it appears that Mario was underutilized in Houston when they asked him to play OLB in classic 3-4 scheme. Despite author's concern about Mario missing games he played in all games while here despite injuries and no suspensions either. Same thing regarding Mario's number of sacks, he got 10+ per year here. The statements regarding money are more related to when Mario's contract was signed relative to those who he was compared to (Charles Johnson had less than 10 sacks last year and far fewer sacks per year). All of this with Williams becoming better at run protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) The problem with that analysis Barley is that Mario has way over performed what they said about him back then. Particularly the line: "Williams was never a top pass rusher in the NFL. He has always been good but more like top 20 good, not top of the NFL good. " Really? Well since signing his huge deal only 3 men have more sacks than Mario Williams (I know sacks are not the be all and end all but they are a pretty good indicator of who the top pass rushers are I'd say) In the three years Mario has been a Bill: JJ Watt - 50.5 sacks Justin Houston - 43 sacks Robert Quinn - 40 sacks Mario Williams - 38 sacks Top 20 indeed! But wait let's compare that production to the three guys that article compared his salary to.... Charles Johnson - 32 Jared Allen - 28.5 Julius Peppers - 25.5 However, I take the argument that those three guys are on the down side of their careers now so how does Mario's salary compare to the three guys ahead of him in the sack rankings? JJ Watt's contract is larger (to be expected he is the best defensive player in the NFL and his numbers blow everyone out of the water), Houston is on the franchise tag after finishing his rookie deal and the Chiefs did not offer him what he thought he was worth - he will get a bigger pay day than Mario if he hits the open market and Quinn's is the third largest 4-3 DE contact according to over the cap... about $1.7million per year behind Mario on average. Now none of that says the Bills didn't slightly overpay for Mario. I think they did, but it was a move a team with a lot of cap space and not many elite level players could afford to make and when you put it in its proper context - as I have sought to do with the analysis above... it is not a huge overpayment... it is probably an average of $1million a year above where his true value is. EDIT: I think you have a better point on whether the deals made by the Bills this year were as justifiable and relating it back to Russell Wilson I think if the Seahawks can come to an agreement that is around $21/22million a year they will overpay by a million $ a year or so too - and do so quite happily. Edited July 8, 2015 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 The problem with that analysis Barley is that Mario has way over performed what they said about him back then. Particularly the line: "Williams was never a top pass rusher in the NFL. He has always been good but more like top 20 good, not top of the NFL good. " Really? Well since signing his huge deal only 3 men have more sacks than Mario Williams (I know sacks are not the be all and end all but they are a pretty good indicator of who the top pass rushers are I'd say) In the three years Mario has been a Bill: JJ Watt - 50.5 sacks Justin Houston - 43 sacks Robert Quinn - 40 sacks Mario Williams - 38 sacks Top 20 indeed! But wait let's compare that production to the three guys that article compared his salary to.... Charles Johnson - 32 Jared Allen - 28.5 Julius Peppers - 25.5 However, I take the argument that those three guys are on the down side of their careers now so how does Mario's salary compare to the three guys ahead of him in the sack rankings? JJ Watt's contract is larger (to be expected he is the best defensive player in the NFL and his numbers blow everyone out of the water), Houston is on the franchise tag after finishing his rookie deal and the Chiefs did not offer him what he thought he was worth - he will get a bigger pay day than Mario if he hits the open market and Quinn's is the third largest 4-3 DE contact according to over the cap... about $1.7million per year behind Mario on average. Now none of that says the Bills didn't slightly overpay for Mario. I think they did, but it was a move a team with a lot of cap space and not many elite level players could afford to make and when you put it in its proper context - as I have sought to do with the analysis above... it is not a huge overpayment... it is probably an average of $1million a year above where his true value is. EDIT: I think you have a better point on whether the deals made by the Bills this year were as justifiable and relating it back to Russell Wilson I think if the Seahawks can come to an agreement that is around $21/22million a year they will overpay by a million $ a year or so too - and do so quite happily. I hate to argue about Mario because I think he was the one guy on the team worth overpaying for. My issue has much more to do with the Bills doing the same thing several more times. It's just not sustainable even if it is done for exceptional players at critical positions, which isn't the case except for Mario. Shady is a top back, but he's still a RB. Clay is not an elite player and he doesn't play a critical position regardless of all of the talk about the importance of versatile TEs in Roman's scheme. That's the point I was trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 (edited) I hate to argue about Mario because I think he was the one guy on the team worth overpaying for. My issue has much more to do with the Bills doing the same thing several more times. It's just not sustainable even if it is done for exceptional players at critical positions, which isn't the case except for Mario. Shady is a top back, but he's still a RB. Clay is not an elite player and he doesn't play a critical position regardless of all of the talk about the importance of versatile TEs in Roman's scheme. That's the point I was trying to make. Yea - as I tried to make clear in my edit the free agent signing this year are more disputable. Although I am hoping that the Clay deal gets reworked next summer. I am hoping that they came to an agreement about its structure (giving him two years of major overpayment) to make sure Miami couldn't match and that they already have an agreement in principle to sit down and spread the money more evenly after 2015 because the average salary for the contract is right there in the second group of tight ends. He is getting $7.6million per year which is 4th highest after Gronk, Graham and Julius Thomas but there are 8 guys within $600,000 of each other and Clay's is the most recently signed deal of those. although having said that his is the largest guaranteed money deal for a tight end. I think the issue with Clay is less that it is a big overpayment and more that it is a huge swing for the fences. If he works out it wll be a good value contract.... if he is a bust FA signing (as many are) then it is a massive miss. Edited July 9, 2015 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted July 9, 2015 Share Posted July 9, 2015 Yea - as I tried to make clear in my edit the free agent signing this year are more disputable. Although I am hoping that the Clay deal gets reworked next summer. I am hoping that they came to an agreement about its structure (giving him two years of major overpayment) to make sure Miami couldn't match and that they already have an agreement in principle to sit down and spread the money more evenly after 2015 because the average salary for the contract is right there in the second group of tight ends. He is getting $7.6million per year which is 4th highest after Gronk, Graham and Julius Thomas but there are 8 guys within $600,000 of each other and Clay's is the most recently signed deal of those. although having said that his is the largest guaranteed money deal for a tight end. I think the issue with Clay is less that it is a big overpayment and more that it is a huge swing for the fences. If he works out it wll be a good value contract.... if he is a bust FA signing (as many are) then it is a massive miss. The only thing that they'll change in Clay's contract is the roster bonus due next offseason will change to a signing bonus so it can be prorated. That was just done to prevent Miami from matching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 didn't know where to put this but since it's about Wilson, Buffalo QB's and salary cap I'll put it here. nice positive fluff piece the city of Buffalo http://www.fieldgulls.com/2015/7/10/8924999/teams-that-probably-would-make-russell-wilson-the-highest-paid-player I'm not exactly sure what my assumptions about Buffalo were before I arrived there -- opinions of the city were mostly non-existent -- but I left thinking that it was actually a cool little city. The reason for this is as plain as looking at who the starting QB was for Buffalo on that day I arrived to see them play the Patriots; Kyle flippity-doo-da Orton. I remember sitting in the press box and thinking to myself, "Is E.J. Manuel hurt?" and then turning to the Bills' guy sitting next to me and asking him what Orton was doing in Buffalo, then him telling me that Manuel just really sucks. "Oh okay, sounds about right." Yet here we are in 2015 and who is the starting QB in Buffalo? Well, it might be Manuel. There are plenty of people that would speculate that you could change just one player on the rosters -- Russell Wilson to Buffalo that is -- and the Bills would be the Super Bowl favorites while the Seahawks would be hovering around .500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#34fan Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Exactly it is a projection. The same as can he go out there and really pick a team apart. Maybe he can, but it is a projection. I do think some of this comes down to what people think "elite" means. How many "elite" guys are there in the league at this point? Bandit puts it at 2 maybe 3.... I'd go 3 maybe 4 depending on whether it was really injury at the end of last season with Peyton or whether he has truly hit the wall - his play until about week 10 of last season in the previous 2 and a half years in Denver had certainly been "elite". Now whilst I don't think "eliteness" is a pure numbers game (i.e. elite doesn't mean "top 5") it is not that arbitrary but it does become a numbers game the wider you start to stretch it... because out of 32 once you get 6 or 7 in that "elite" bracket and you are around 20% I'd say that isn't an elite in the normal understanding of the word. Wilson's detractors have cooked up horses#!@ arguments about 'projections' sprinkled with semantics about 'elitness' long before his pro career even started... It was unfair THEN, and it is even MORE effed-up, and unfair NOW considering his success. The argument back then, was that he was "no Andrew Luck" -a notion dispelled in post #22 of this thread. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/142967-for-the-russell-wilson-fans/ The argument now, is that he's no Peyton Manning, (or Rodgers) and isn't worth "elite money" - It's an argument made by those who clearly don't remember the early years of Peyton's career..... PEYTON MANNING was no Peyton Manning in the beggining... His first season the guy threw 28 picks! That's more than Wilson's thrown in 3 years of being a starter! In this same span of time, Wilson has rushed for more than DOUBLE the amount of first downs as Rodgers in his first three years as a regular starter! -45 in 2014 alone! -How does that NOT help your team win? -How do those 3rd down conversions NOT keep your defense rested and off the field?? Some believe Wilson's success is a product of a great defense... I submit that it's the other way around... Not paying Wilson because he isn't Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers is idiotic.. He's made the playoffs every year he's been a starter... Won the NFC twice, back to back.. Took this team from nothing to perennial SB contenders... No, he doesn't do it the same way we've been brain-washed to think a prototypical QB should it... -Wilson does it HIS WAY... if there wasn't something to be said for that, they wouldn't have written a song about it. You pay someone top dollar for something they've repeatedly proven they can do... Wilson has proven he can win against all odds... http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/145956-russell-wilson-already-threatening/ Pay the man, already. Edited July 12, 2015 by #34fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) As usual you are missing the point by a country mile. I did not say don't pay Russell Wilson because he isn't Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers. Not even close. And I am 100% not a Russell Wilson detractor. I think the guy is a great player. I don't, however, think he has proven himself to be one of the top 3 or 4 Quarterbacks in this league - I think he is more around top 10 and therefore I don't think I would pay him as the best paid player in the NFL. Your argument is about projections - it is "he has been better the firs 3 years than Manning therefore he is likely going to be better than Manning." Well get this - Peyton Manning wasn't the best paid player in the NFL after 3 years either. As for Wilson "winning against all odds"...... the odds being having an all time great defense (as proved when the numbers were compared to the Ravens of 2000 and the Bears of 1985) and an all pro running back? He has proven he can win. He deserves a big pay day.... but $25million a year? No, I'm sorry he hasn't demonstrated he is worth that. Edited July 13, 2015 by GunnerBill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 The Seahawks obviously feel the same way, otherwise they would have paid him by now. In the same vein, I wonder if Luck is looking for a huge new deal as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Wilson went on to say that God often announces penalties and has an eclectic taste in music. God normally just texts him old Morrisey lyrics. As usual you are missing the point by a country mile. I did not say don't pay Russell Wilson because he isn't Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers. Not even close. And I am 100% not a Russell Wilson detractor. I think the guy is a great player. I don't, however, think he has proven himself to be one of the top 3 or 4 Quarterbacks in this league - I think he is more around top 10 and therefore I don't think I would pay him as the best paid player in the NFL. Your argument is about projections - it is "he has been better the firs 3 years than Manning therefore he is likely going to be better than Manning." Well get this - Peyton Manning wasn't the best paid player in the NFL after 3 years either. As for Wilson "winning against all odds"...... the odds being having an all time great defense (as proved when the numbers were compared to the Ravens of 2000 and the Bears of 1985) and an all pro running back? He has proven he can win. He deserves a big pay day.... but $25million a year? No, I'm sorry he hasn't demonstrated he is worth that. To his credit, that was one hell of a straw man. Not sure why it took a Proustian effort to knock down the argument that no one has advanced, but I admire #34's spirit despite obvious physical limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 God normally just texts him old Morrisey lyrics. So he's going to turn into a crotchety bitter old man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#34fan Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 To his credit, that was one hell of a straw man. Not sure why it took a Proustian effort to knock down the argument that no one has advanced, but I admire #34's spirit despite obvious physical limitations. Why can't you stand on one damn thing you say? Who's cowardly backpedaling mouth did this come out of?: Russel Wilson is going to get paid like Rodgers, Brady, Manning and I don't think he's even remotely in the same class. Part of the Squawks success has been their ability to build a dominant defense and incredible running game since they weren't burdened with the type of salary an elite QB commands. I think backing up the truck for Wilson will be the beginning of their descent back to the middle of the pack as less resources are available to sustain that D. ..... -And here's Gunner Bill's two cents: Exactly it is a projection. The same as can he go out there and really pick a team apart. Maybe he can, but it is a projection. I do think some of this comes down to what people think "elite" means. How many "elite" guys are there in the league at this point? Bandit puts it at 2 maybe 3.... I'd go 3 maybe 4 depending on whether it was really injury at the end of last season with Peyton or whether he has truly hit the wall - his play until about week 10 of last season in the previous 2 and a half years in Denver had certainly been "elite". Now whilst I don't think "eliteness" is a pure numbers game (i.e. elite doesn't mean "top 5") it is not that arbitrary but it does become a numbers game the wider you start to stretch it... because out of 32 once you get 6 or 7 in that "elite" bracket and you are around 20% I'd say that isn't an elite in the normal understanding of the word. I am with you and Bandit. I would also add that the elite ones I always feel can blow a team off the field in a half of NFL football. Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees have all had periods in their careers where they were doing that 5 or 6 times a season. I know the Seahawks don't really ask him to do that but I don't feel comfortable simply projecting that he could if asked. BOTH of these are detractions, my freind... Semantic ones, but detractions nonetheless... You fundamentally don't understand the value of a QB that can lead you deep into the playoffs. -Never mind one who can win you a couple of superbowls... I wonder how many years you've been watching this sport from over the pond? Your opinion sounds very unqualified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Why can't you stand on one damn thing you say? Who's cowardly backpedaling mouth did this come out of?: The discussion is whether hes worth the richest contract in NFL history, a point which you never address. The adults were having a discussion and in typical style you post a treasure trove of your embarrassing past which never specifically addresses a point that Bill made. But I suppose your largely irrelevant gibberish is incontrovertible proof that Wilson should be paid some sum. You may as well have replied with the Brad Smiff is no dummy, defense. Great work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#34fan Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 (edited) The discussion is whether hes worth the richest contract in NFL history, a point which you never address. The adults were having a discussion and in typical style you post a treasure trove of your embarrassing past which never specifically addresses a point that Bill made. But I suppose your largely irrelevant gibberish is incontrovertible proof that Wilson should be paid some sum. You may as well have replied with the Brad Smiff is no dummy, defense. Great work. Let's see.... Cowardly... Backpedaling.... I think I'll add BUTT-HURT to your list of personal attributes.... Anyway, your rancid piehole hasn't produced a single convincing argument against paying Wilson.... Not one. So thanks for the compliment... Btw, I don't blame you for LOVING that thread... I know I do... Edited July 13, 2015 by #34fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts